Christmas Market Stalls Available

Brockley Cross Action Group are looking for people to run stalls at this year's Christmas Market, on Coulgate Street, next to Brockley Station.

The market will take place on December 13th and follows a successful pilot last year.

At present, 16 stalls are still available. Each stall costs £40 and need to be paid for in advance.

If you're interested, please contact eaessex@hotmail.com

113 comments:

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Ask not what Brockley could do for you...

Jt said...

Will people even be spending this Christmas?

Anonymous said...

I feel better off this time than I was last year. I think I hit the wave early - but has the money in real people's pockets really been hit? Really?

Anonymous said...

On the subject of consumer spending, full marks to ASDA and Morrisons today who have both put a litre of petrol under the £1/litre barrier for the first time since December 2007. Time to top up methinks!

Mara said...

In terms of 16 stalls still available; I've been trying for a while to find the right person to speak to in order to get more information. I'm sure that there will be other people too who are interested but haven't been able to find the right bod to speak to!

The only thing that Google turns up with certainty about the Brockley Christmas Market is that the Uklele group will be there! Which sounds pretty fantastic.

Brockley Nick said...

Cat man, last year you claimed you'd been prevented from taking a stall because the Council had reserved the stalls for "ethnic minorities" - completely untrue of course.

This year would seem to be your chance!

Monkeyboy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Monkeyboy said...

,,,,actually I'll delete that last comment. Don't want to start him off.

Anonymous said...

Ugh... quotas... racism in its purest form.

jpm said...

When did your partner challenge this law? And how? Where's the documentation?

As a gay couple you will have 'minority rights', rights not usually enjoyed by white, male heterosexuals - this can be used to your advantage to get a stall.

However, and unfortunately you might say, it doesn't stop those WMHs ranting on as much as you do about the unfairness of it all.

Anonymous said...

Cat Man, you really are full of the most extroadinary shite.

Locallife Siam said...

On a more positive note, I think the statement that there are 16 stalls left is simply the BXAG telling us that it is now October, the detailed planning for the market is now in place and people are invited to express interest in stalls. In other words it's definitely not "oh no, we still have 16 stalls left, how will we fill them!" I'm helping plan the Ladywell Christmas market and know that it's about now we want to start asking people whether they are interested in a stall.

For both markets, email the BXAG directly at BXAG@FSMAIL.NET or for Ladywell at ladywell.info@googlemail.com or let me know (sian.mclean@locallife.co.uk) and I'll pass the message on asap.

It would be great to see both markets (which are on the same day and there's full coordination between the two sites to create a complementary market experience!) really celebrating the creativity in the area - so potters, artists, jewellery makers, knitters, etc who have articles to exhibit or sell are all welcome! and in both places there's going to be lots of festive cheer and fun stuff. So, if you know anyone who might be interested in either market please pass on the message!

And Mara, if you want to email me directly with details of what you do I will be happy to pass them on to the Brockley market team.

Locallife Sian said...

I seem to have gone all Oriental by mistake! Can't even type my own name these days!

max said...

Bullsh*t, bullsh*t!
Get your Christmas Bullsh*y from the Catman's stall.
Beware of fakes made in China, only the Catman gives you the real thing!
Here's a mulled whine and a dish of bullsh*t that I just made.
And a Merry WHITE Christmas to you!

Anonymous said...

This blog would be SO much more enjoyable without The Cat on it. And before someone says so, yes he's entiled to his opinion and it's a free country and all that but it really is tedious listening to his Daily Mail cobblers.

Locallife Sian said...

Ouch! For a moment there I thought my comment had proviked the bullsh*t comments. Phew! Anyway, back to work!

Anonymous said...

Perhaps worth seeing if the council did indeed impose a quota before rubbishing Catman's comments.

Why are the Brockley and Ladywell events being held on the same day? This isn't like booking Wembley Stadium ... surely one of the events could step sideways by a week or two?

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Locallife Sian said...

I knew that would be the next comment!

Simple reasons - because it suits each community best; because it fits in best with other local events; because some of the participants are only available those dates...

the two events start and end at slightly different times and most people only stay an hour or two at a market like that so we are hoping people will visit both... after all they are only a short walk apart.

No issue really!

Anonymous said...

Presumably so that once people find out where you have a stall, they will use the other one.

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

How can ladywell not be part of brockley - the two parts of london are within gobbing distance of each other.

Where are they actually beind held by the way?

Ladywell is prettier than West Brockley and thusly deserved more attention in keeping it that way. ;-)

Locallife Sian said...

No, no, no, dear Mr cat man, please try to read things properly before you write! There are two groups - BXAG organising the Brockley market and the Ladywell Village Improvement Group organising the Ladywell market. That's why I said I was helping organise the Ladywell market, and gave two different contact details for the two market teams.. see - all very separate but clever enough to talk to each other to make it all work...

Locallife Sian said...

last post for the time being...

Brockley market - Coulgate st by the station
Ladywell - outside Ladywell station

lots more details to come nearer the time!

Jt said...

Ladywell copies Brockley.

The Cat Man said...
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Anonymous said...

Where would it go on Coulgate street? Where the cars normally park? Does that mean the SORN outside Broca is going to move?

Mara said...

Thanks Sian, I've just sent you an email. Thank you for co-ordinating.

lb said...

At the current rate things are going, I'm expecting a stall selling worthless buy-to-let properties for a fiver a pop.

Headhunter said...

Actually LIBOR is dropping as we speak and enquiries at estate agents are up apparently. Get in now, I'm calling the bottom of the market.....

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Headhunter said...

Yeah I was just being wildly optimistic, but at least LIBOR is creeping down which should mean banks are starting to lend again

Anonymous said...

Why do you people live in London when you obviously wish you were living in an area which was purely white. I read this blog and as an "ethnic minority" person I find the mildly racist undertones on a lot of the comments pretty disgusting. You live in Brockley - before you moved here there were Black, Asian and other minority families living here. You do not own Brockley despite what you may think. The Broca is not Brockley, The BXAG is not Brockley. Brockley is a community full of people who really don't need narrow minded middle class racists who are just living here to make money from property as they couldn't afford to live in East Dulwich and will leave and go back to the Home Counties and suburbs when they realise that John Stainer is rougher than they thought. How much shall I bet you that all the stalls end up being taken by "friends' of the people who camp in the Broca?

Anonymous said...

I think you'll find the mildly racist views are restricted to one contributor.

Mara said...

Hi Anon,

Please don't take the comments on this blog to reflect the whole of the group. Personally I don't want to be lumped in.

The comments you're referring to seem to be limited to one or two people; it's not representative of the whole.

I stopped posting comments on Brockley Central for a while because I didn't want to be associated with the tone.

Please know that the majority of readers (I'm sure) do not share the opinion of some of the people who post comments. It's important to provide some perspective on the situation.

I think that Brockley Central should be about uniting the community and I'm hoping that as more people start to comment we'll see a change in tone.

Cheers,
Samara

Bea said...

Dear Anon @ 23:52

If you become a regular reader of this blog you will discover that it is Andy Pandy Pudding and Pie aka the Cat Man aka The Brockley Telegraph (he goes by three different names here) that consistently makes provocative and at times outright racist posts. He has been warned several times by the moderators to refrain from making them and they consistently remove his comments.

Regular posters have by now learnt to ignore them as they only provoke him into a “right to reply” mode and totally derail the thread.

In the mean time his most recent tactic is to make an offensive statement leave it long enough for one or two people to see and then remove it himself – leaving the rest of us shrugging our shoulders thinking – what a sad person.

However, if you keep him away from his pet topic on occasion he has been known to make some decent contributions to this blog.

I am sure I am right is saying that his points of view reflect neither those of the moderators themselves or many of the posters here.

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Headhunter said...

It is interesting though and a little sad that anonymous ethnic minority poster does not feel that coffee shops like Broca and BXAG are accessible to him/her. Why not? One is just a coffee shop and the other is a small pressure group trying to improve the area. Hardly last bastions of the KKK...

nobbly brick said...

cat man does seriously need to get a life, but other than that if people can't be tolerant of his idiosyncratic points of view then I suspect the problem lies with them rather than catman himself.

Theres a lot of people like catman inhabiting cyberspace...

indeed, there are peope here who are *far* more irritating than catman with the narrowness of their views

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
drakefell debaser said...

No catman, those comments from max and anons were facetious swipes at you, surely this is obvious? Let’s not misconstrue what others have said in an attempt to justify yourself and make it appear that you are being victimised.

This subject on race and ethnicity lingers like the smell of an old cat litter box. It is time to move on and stop bringing it up.

Anonymous said...

It has been said before but it is best to ignore a troll.

patrick1971 said...

I agree with headhunter; what on earth is stopping a non-white person going into the Broca? Somewhere like Jam Circus always has a pretty good ethnic mix, judging by my vists. The Broca isn't any different.

And I am a bit puzzled by the claims of the anonymouses that this blog reeks of racism. Andy's the only overt one, and he's always shouted down. If the anonymouses mean that because we dare to complain about cars being driven around playing loud thumping music, that makes us racist, well that is truly ludicrous.

Anonymous said...

Here, here to the concerned anonymous! I am sure, it may not be all who contribute to this that have said some less than savoury remarks regarding race, but it is true, "Brockley Central", really does not cover issues regarding the whole of Brockley, how it was before, how it is now and how it will be in the future. It represents one very small demographic of Brockley and that is the white middle class.

I, as an ethnic minority am concerned, that blogs/websites like this that actually hold a lot of social responsibilty really do not serve their society better. It's true the Broca is not Brockley, neither is the BXAG....rarely are there any uplifting articles about other small businesses that are owned by individuals of other ethnic backgrounds. Yet, there is constant sing-song about the Broca! What about Cafe Neu when it existed, or Yana before it decided to put its lease up for rent? Why are these businesses, not celebrated more on Brockley Central?

Jt said...

What's going on here is subtle, 'racist' undertones and generic middle class values are being conjoined in anon's view. If you weren't a regular it's understandable that you might think this is Daily Mail style blog with all the attendant baggage that notion acrues, I cite the first 5 responses to 'BXAG call to arms' for Saturday thread as an example.

Anonymous said...

I think the previous anon was referring to the "crustafarian" element that frequents such shops. You know, daddy's darlings out finding themselves on their gap year (in the most organic way possible of course)...

Headhunter said...

I think Cafe Neu closed down quite early on in the life of this blog, it has after all, only been around for about a year or so. Even though, there certainly was an article here about it and quite a bit of discussion if you take a look at the archives. Not sure about Yana.

You may be right that the vast majority of posters here are white and middle class, I know I am, but this is hardly set firm in policy. Surely anyone is welcome to make comments and if individuals from other backgrounds (race, sexuality, belief, whatever) wish to, they can. We already seem to have a couple of gays in the village for a start!

This is purely and simply a blog open to all and sundry and not in any way an official website. Nick has often said that if anyone wishes to write pieces for the site he will air them and there is a "suggest a topic" section.

Although I sympathise with your views to a certain extent my immediate thoughts are if you wish to be heard, stand up and speak out rather than sit on the back benches bellyaching and moaning.

Anonymous said...

i have an old car can i park this up in coulgate street and sell my old stuff from it thus omitting the costly £40 pounds !!
and where does this cash go to are accounts kept or do we just trust in the process as it is run by middle class people, and do any ethnic minority groups get any of the funds or just the choosen class ?

fred vest said...

"It represents one very small demographic of Brockley and that is the white middle class"

this is very true, however at the same time i don't think that the editors & most contributors of this blog think that it does represent anything else. it's an interest group like all others and you and I may find those interests unpalattable and alien, but you can't knock them for looking out for their own interests, it's what the middle class (of all colours) does best

there may well be a handful of people here who genuinely thing that this blog is representative of the wider community that they claim to live in and they are clearly deluded in this regard, but i think most people here see this place for what it is (even if they don't care to admit it too openly)

Headhunter said...

Exactly, this site cannot be everything to everyone. It's a blog, not even a full website and it is run by people with full time jobs to do rather than an full editorial team.

Brockley Central is purely the sum of it's contributors and most of those appear to be white and middle class. If people from other backgrounds wish to contribute, they can.

lb said...

I'd agree with the anonymous poster in that a lot of the comments made about Brockley on this blog represent a fairly narrow view (i.e. overwhelmingly middle class, which in the case of London, at least, is also overwhelmingly white) as to what makes an area 'nice' to live in.

But I'd also agree with hh and Mr. Vest - it's just reflecting the kind of people that read this blog (or more specifically, the kind of people who take the time to comment here). As long as people remember that their view about how an area should develop is just that, their view, and that one man's art gallery is another man's complete waste of space, then that's fine, I guess.

lb said...

As for the Broca, I suppose the real principle in operation is whether you can afford to spend nearly two quid on a hot drink.

Jt said...

Clearly what's needed are class/race commenter quotas!
I love how things have come almost full circle.

Anonymous said...

I'm pretty sure that cafe neu got a decent write up on here before it shut up shop.

They had a stall at the market last year and I got a very nice pain au chocolat from them. The man who ran the shop seemed to be a nice sort of person too.

I thought they had plans to reopen somewhere?

Bhabur always gets a good write up (from everyone).

I don't really know what people want this blog to do differently? Should it be writing about the local churces and the life of people on council estates in the area? The authors (Jon, Nick and Kate) don't necessarily have any experience of these things so they will find it hard to write about them.

As others have said perhaps it is up the anonmymous posters to chip in with some articles to broaden the scope and appeal of the blog.

We're not all racist windbags like Andy.

Anonymous said...

why can Kate Nick or Jon not go and interview shops like the Juice bar and honey pot?

Or are they two above this a Jamician food stall selling rice and peas would be fab !!

really show the nut eaters real food!!

Anonymous said...

Where the hell is the juice bar and honey pot? I've never heard of either. Are they in Cheap Brockley?

Brockley Nick said...

A few quick points to note.

1. I specifically asked the Council whether there was any form of quota applied to last year's market, following Andy's accusation. There was not - indeed, the Council thought the suggestion was especially ludicrous because there were plenty of spare places - no rationing was even necessary.

2. I did write a short piece about Yana when it opened, wishing it well. Also wrote about Cafe Neu on a number of occasions and hope that the owners will return one day as they suggested they might.

3. LB - your point suggests all points of view are equally valid. That's relativist nonsense. Some points of view are better than others ;)

4. This is primarily a news site. The businesses that get featured most are the ones that have got some news to share. If there is a sin of ommission in terms of what is written about and discussed, it's as much your fault as it is ours. Tell us what you want to write about and we'll write about it. Better still, write it yourself and send it to me. Thanks.

jpm said...

I'm sure there are a few who also find it overwhelmingly under class and overwhelmingly black.

drakefell debaser said...

The honey pot is in the C area, anon 18:04. Certainly east anyway. Out here, restaurants are rare, and juice and honey are often not affordable.

Brockley Kate said...

"why can Kate Nick or Jon not go and interview shops like the Juice bar and honey pot?"

Why don't you do it, Mr/Ms Anonymous? You can't even be bothered to give yourself an identifier on here, let alone lift a finger. You just love to sit and criticise.

Let's face it, whatever the BC team did would never be enough to satisfy some of the idiots on here.

Monkeyboy said...

....anyway back in Brockley...

Bought a steak and kidney pie from wellbeloved last week - fab. Got a curry from Cinnamon tonight, not fab. the Babur all the way for me.

Mara said...

"why can Kate Nick or Jon not go and interview shops like the Juice bar and honey pot?"

I think that the onus should not be on Blog admin on this one. A clever business that relies on local trade should be pro-active in promoting themselves to the community. The question really should be flipped the other way around to ask if these businesses have been in touch with Blog admin to share recent news that would make a good blog post.

I feel bad for Nick, Jon and Kate as I'm sure that they've all got pretty demanding jobs and lives - it takes a lot of work to run a site like this and update it as frequently as they do - the criticism is a bit undeserved really.

And finally, pies from Wellbeloved are the best.

BM said...

".... If the anonymouses mean that because we dare to complain about cars being driven around playing loud thumping music, that makes us racist, well that is truly ludicrous"

In response to the comment above, don't be ridiculous. No body wants to live with noise pollution. The problem here is that the particular issues are assigned to specific groupls based on class and race and that's just plain wrong. So one reads about black people driving cars with loud music and being the underclass. It's just crazy. I have just moved here and had no idea Brockley had these problems with race. I used to live in Brixton and people truly mixed, drank together and hung out in racially mixed groups. I loved being a black area, i loved the culture, people and it had a great atmosphere. I am white and I feel ashamed of what i am reading here, honestly. Yes I know it's a blog but the views here are really borderline racist. The Black community have been living here for years and just because you control a blog and a few other community groups it doesn't give you the right to propogate such nasty views

Brockley Nick said...

@BM - you're really wide of the mark and that is very unfair. None of the blog moderators has ever made a racist comment and we spend more time than any of us would like, deleting racist comments by one individual, who tries his best to provoke others. Please just ignore him and we will try to be vigilant in moderating comments.

This blog is meant to be for the benefit of the whole community and indeed, it covers a lot more sunjects than its critics often give it credit for. I wish people would search the site (using the search function) to see whether their preferred topic has actually been covered before accusing us of neglecting it.

Once you've done that, if you still feel the issue is underreported, please let us know. But be specific. There's nothing more infuriating than being told that I am 'ignoring the real issues' or neglcting the interests of one community or another without actually being told what I'm missing.

Like Brixton, my impression is that people of all races and background bump along together very well. Long may that continue.

Sian said...

Hmmm... I can honestly say I have never experienced any hint of racism from anyone formally associated with any local group, on or offline, including the Brockley Central Three (ie Nick, Jon and Kate). Sadly that's not completely true of some of the bloggers who visit this site. But in that sense I guess they are just representative of any society.

Nor have I ever personally experienced any racial tension in the area, although I am aware of others who feel they have. But most of all I am aware of many people who love living here, enjoy seeing Brockley develop and grow, and are willing to give any venture or any business a fair chance. And my knowledge of Nick, Jon and Kate is that they are people who want to celebrate every thing positive in Brockley, regardless of race, colour, gender, sexual preference, income etc etc etc.

Just felt the need to defend them, and Brockley's generally non-prejudiced character!

jpm said...

Actally I was searching for a response to this. I needn't have bothered as Sian really hits the nail on the head, and with great beauty.

Nick, and the rest of you who have done so much to bring reasoned debate to this site - don't get sucked into this. (Look not to where the arrow points.)

If anyone can live anywhere and not realise that there are problems with 'race' then they're just plain blinkered.

Of course there are problems, but (generally) the people who seem to gravitate towards Brockley differ from those I grew up with in (racist) Liverpool. (I suggest BM visits there for a few years. It may prove an eye opener.)

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Alexis B said...

i disagree with the utopian, halcyonic picture that people are trying to paint of brockley in an attempt to brush the pertinent issue that was raised by the brave (albeit anonymous) poster under the carpet.

i've lived in brockley for over a year and whilst i'm not from an ethnic minority, the segregation undertones are palpable and it's plain uncomfortable. The white middle class vice-like grip on the cornerstones of brockley's community - such as art gallery membership, the fun run and indeed the christmas market stalls - means that black and other ethnic minorities are simply pushed out.

There needs to be more openness with regard to community events and things need to be made more accessible, it shouldn't be necessary to become a private investigator to infiltrate the broca mafia and actually feel a welcome valued part of the community.

Brockley Nick said...

Alexis - I am not a member of any of the local groups and indeed I have once or twice accused a few of them of a degree of insularity, so I think I can comment with a degree of impartiality.

From what I can see, having been to a number of their various meetings, they are not exclusive (indeed, every one of the meetings I've been do has had some ethnic mix), but sometimes they could be better at reaching out to the wider community. Indeed, I often urge them, not always very successfully, to use this site to reach out more widely.

But on this page alone there are two open requests for people to get involved in local groups - gardening and running a Christmas Market Stall. How can you argue therefore that it's difficult to infiltrate them?

jj said...

I was wondering why no one ever writes to support Dandelion Blue which is part owned by a local black lady, but they always go on about The Broca? funny that..have you ever seen anyone that wasn't white working in there? Some people feel too intimidated to even go in

Brockley Nick said...

@JJ - I hope that's some sort of late night wind up? There are countless words of praise for Dandelion Blue on here - far more than, say Degustation.

In fact, most of the recent comments about the Broca have related to the fact that they are opening a new shop. Don't forget, this is a news-driven site. When Dandelion Blue do something newsworthy, there will no-doubt be a flurry of comments about them too.

Jt said...

Few write about degustation either, I suspect it is because Francoism is rife in Brockley

Anonymous said...

Brockley Kate

17 October 2008 20:58

It was only a suggestion...
no need to be rude and start calling people idiots, because they make a reasonable suggestion.

You write about the Broca /MJs and the new veg shop,the only Black owned shop I have seen written about on here was Dukes and that was not a "Brockley Central interview" it was comments from posters!!
It would be nice to see the a wider community included, thats real community cohesion.

and just because a person chooses not to put up a made up blog name this does not identify them!!!!!!!!

Although monkey boys picture prob gives him away!!

Alexis B said...

thanks for your reply nick, i think it's great that you're trying to help foster better relations with this blog and also that you've made your position clear on the subject, something that wouldn't even be questioned or acknowledged at the likes of BXAG and the blasted Broca.

But to reiterate my point, it's about different ethnic groups feeling valued and respected in community groups - finding out about them is only half of the problem, becoming a member and becoming part of the 'inner circle' are two different things.

It's all well and good putting a gloss over things but people need to speak out for change

Brockley Nick said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Brockley is no different from anywhere in the UK. People need to get over it - people who feel pushed out need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and engage with the community. Stop waiting to be handed everything on a plate

Brockley Nick said...

.

Monkeyboy said...

This is all getting a bit silly. Dandelion Blue has had LOTS of positive coverage. The Brockley Revolutionary Front were slagging it off for being too posh, now apparently there is a deliberate policy from the administrators to not talk about it? eh? are you totally insane?

Like many have said here, most readers on here are a bit middle class so obviously the threads gravitate in that direction. If there are any minority posters (and there are a few) post away and the threads will reflect other interests - good I like that.

The CAT is not representative of the attitudes here - he's a weirdo.

Sian said...

Morning all! Apologies in advance for the length of this comment!

After last night's outpouring of concern, criticisms and defences of Brockely Central/other local "groups" on the racial/social integration front, two things occur to me on this beautiful bright and sunny morning:

Firstly, (as usual (-; ) we have hijacked the Christmas market stall thread so any discussion about what people might like to see at the markets has got squeezed out....

Secondly, I wonder whether Brockley Central might be interested in opening up this debate in a separate thread - it's clear to me from last night that there are some really strong feelings about how Brockley is or isn't coping with adapting to having a greater ethnic and social mix (ie different people moving into the area, changing its demographic). Amongst some slightly off-beat views there are some really interesting comments. It would be possible to have an interesting, constructive debate that might educate quite a few people. For example, I recently went along to one of the Safer Neighbourhood panel meetings and I heard things there - about crime, about safety, about some people's perceptions of who and where crime is committed etc, that surprised me. What also surprised me was that a really powerful debate there shaped itself into a plan for action - involving quite diverse parts of the community.

What I'd be really keen to hear from other BC bloggers is where you think it's going right (for the optimists amongst us) but also where you think it's going wrong - and in each case it would be really helpful to identify not just the specific event (eg "the Christmas market is inaccessible") but why you believe that and what you think is causing it, and what you would suggest gets changed.

I realise this isn't in itself news but it is a fascinating subject on which there are clearly incredibly strong views. Which of course could lead to inappropriate comments... self-discipline in choice of language would be essential.

A last point. I noticed on here that someone thought that BXAG would never admit to any problems in their social reach etc. Interestingly, they are currently advertising on their website for an outreach worker to develop links with all parts of the local community, with particular emphasis on building a strong relationship with ethnic minorities and people living in social housing. So perhaps we need to give them more credit, and perhaps there may be people interested in applying as this would be a definite way to redress the "inclusion" balance.

max said...

This calls for a screening of "Do the right thing" at the Brockley Jack.

nobbly brick said...

Sian, as you know, many posts eventually come down to this topic, or one closely related to it, whether this be in an explicity racist format or thinly veiled behind some 'i hate these people in cars with blacked out windows making a noise up my street' format.

Having a separate topic might feed these line of 'debate' but, inevitably, it will be useless and fruitless and not lead to anything except people arguing about something on a forum that doesn't make the *slightest* bit of difference to people who choose to talk about this kind of topic here.

Its a pity, but again an inevitability, that a topic on Christmas stalls leads to discussion.

Monkeyboy said...

Ooooh....good choice Max! Mind you it was based on the back drop of a long hot summer causing tempers to fray, rather than a short damp one. Nice pizza's though.

Askhat said...

I'm sorry but I'm quite amazed by this. Brockley Central is a blog - not an official mouthpiece therefore it is personal, and partisan by nature and personally I find it informative and interesting. The people who respond and reply to topics are also stating their personal views, and I think everyone has said that the only racist commenter get shouted down on a regular basis. But Nobbly Brick - I am one of those people who said 'I hate cars going up and down my road blaring out noisy music" and you know why? Not because they are black, white,asian or anything else, but because when they drive (slowly by) my house the windows rattle so hard I think the glass might fall out, and I can't hear anything and dislike the feeling of the bass shaking through my body. You can call me fussy, but I find that uncomfortable, invasive and rather aggravating, but sorry, I don't think moaning about it is racist - not even veiled racism.

The more people who comment and discuss and most importantly, suggest things on this blog - the wider the range of experience, suggestions and discussion will be. Anons complaining that the blog doesn't show their interests when they haven't bothered to suggest anything should stop moaning and start doing something to change that - Nick, Kate and Jon aren't mind readers...

max said...

Monkeyboy, prolonged exposure to computer screens can fry your brain just like a hot summer.

Tressilliana said...

'I am one of those people who said 'I hate cars going up and down my road blaring out noisy music" and you know why? Not because they are black, white,asian or anything else, but because when they drive (slowly by) my house the windows rattle so hard I think the glass might fall out, and I can't hear anything and dislike the feeling of the bass shaking through my body. You can call me fussy, but I find that uncomfortable, invasive and rather aggravating, but sorry, I don't think moaning about it is racist - not even veiled racism. '

I agree, Ashkat. Apart from the physical discomfort, what makes me particularly cross about this and about lots of other forms of noise pollution (perpetrated by people from every ethnic group, by the way) is that it's selfish. These people either don't care, or don't have the imagination to grasp, that they are inflicting their noise and their musical taste/ pointless conversations/rows/sex/you name it on people who have no choice but to hear it, whether they want to or not.

nobbly brick said...

And, in the spirit of the 'leave your comment' note (Don't say anything on the blog that you wouldn't say in person to the people you're talking about), if you saw one of these cars stopped, or had some other opportunity to speak to the drivers of one of these cars, would you draw the drivers attention to your perceived 'anti-social behavior'?

Incidentally, I live on a main road, with buses and other traffic going by, but I don't have a problem with people and loud music coming from a moving vehicle.

Askhat said...

Nobbly Brick - yes I probably would unless i was on my own and they were in a car full of blokes, but that wasn't what you were talking about earlier - you suggested being offended by the loud music is racist - actually it's not the music that offends it's the bone and window rattling bass that is offensive. I don't mind traffic (plenty of that goes up and down my road) but I mind having my home shaken by bass, 3 or four times a night on the weekend. And I don't think that is racist...

Pete said...

Isn't it actually more racist to assume that all people driving cars with loud music are black than it is to have a problem with the music?

patrick1971 said...

Well, exactly, Pete.

I really am amazed by this comment from bm: "I am white and I feel ashamed of what i am reading here, honestly. Yes I know it's a blog but the views here are really borderline racist."

Maybe it's because I'm not from an ethnic minority, but I really struggle to see this in this blog. What am I missing?

Sian said...

"Racist" is defined by Dictionary.com as:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

As has already been said countless times here, there is (usually) only one person who writes anything to suggest they hold such views, and on each and every occasion that person is quickly held to account. None of the three site administrators hold such views, and the bloggers on the whole demonstrate through their comments that they hold no racial bias. Disliking loud music has nothing to do with race unless one believes that only people from one particular racial background plays loud music. The only person who has hinted at that belief on here was the blogger who accused the loud music-hater of being racist... they must have assumed that all loud music is played by black youths to assume that the loud music-hater was directing the comment at black youths. As with many such issues, the problem we see in others often lies in ourselves. Whilst I usually think that much of BC bloggers are overly critical of other people's efforts (ie they talk but don't seem to do much themselves apart from a few laudable exceptions), I am quite clear this blog is not racist. If it was, I wouldn't have anything to do with it. It does tend to be middle-class, but that is due to most blogs being a self-selecting group of like-minded individuals and certainly not due to any "racist" or "exclusive" policy. Isn't it time to wind this debate up now?

nobbly brick said...

yes, well, I think you're right Sian, it is time to wind it up.

But regardless of the question of white, black or whatever, and regardless of the occupants of the car, it is expressing a view that is aimed at a particular minority that are doing something that you (one) objects to, and if we say that this is not thinly veiled racism, then it is an expression of rejection towards a 'minority group' and in this lies the seeds of something more pervasive.

But anyway, personal justification is always easy.

Incidentally, the denial of 'anons' to post without registering has certainly cleared the blog of 'undesirables', or perhaps this again is an oppression of a minority...

Sian said...

Just replying because I think your honest and intelligent answer deserves a proper response, not because I want to continue the debate!

Ah! I see, you aren't using "racism" in its true form as in about "race" as in a slightly more modern shorthand for "prejudice". I don't think I agree with your use of the word in this context - it's a word that causes so much tension and should be used accurately to ensure we are describing a serious problem rather than using it to stir up further misunderstandings. But I take your point that expressing a dislike of or rejecting a minority group as in "young men driving around in cars playing loud music" is possibly prejudice... but again, unless there is an assumption that they all come from one race it cannot be described as racism. As for it being "prejudice", as you say it's difficult to prove someone's prejudice in a forum like this. After all, the comment was not aimed at all young men in cars, only those playing loud music, which is a statement of fact rather than a form of prejudice. I don't like walking behind a smoker who lights up and blows that first huge puff right into my face - but I don't assume every smoker does that... so is expressing dislike of an action the same as prejudice...? I'm tending towards not....

Pete said...

Nobbly are you saying that people who drive cars with loud music playing are a minority group and as such mustn't be "rejected"?

nobbly brick said...

Nicely rounded up Sian, I'm happy to leave it at that!

Pete, I wasn't casting a net over the whole subject to gather it all up, I was just expressing a feeling (of mine) that a negative recognition of a perceived minority group (not my perception) was an intrusive feeling that may need to be recognised as being the tip of a (in Sians phraseology) 'prejudice' iceberg.

But I admit, I'm a bit lost now...

People using mobile phones really irritate me though, but they are relatively noiseless from outside the vehicle.

Tressilliana said...

'But regardless of the question of white, black or whatever, and regardless of the occupants of the car, it is expressing a view that is aimed at a particular minority that are doing something that you (one) objects to, and if we say that this is not thinly veiled racism, then it is an expression of rejection towards a 'minority group' and in this lies the seeds of something more pervasive.'

So we can't object to people behaving in an anti-social way at all, as the selfish minority might feel rejected?

The Cat Man said...

Can I please make myself perfectly clear.

I do not believe that anyones cultural heritage is superior than any others but that actually we can learn from each other.

The traditional British cultural heritage implicitly assumes we should be ashamed of ourselves and that somehow we should have guilt about the historical differences that have existed between cultures in the past.

We now have in place - thankfully - a system where we can all prosper irrespective of racial heritage but the same established british opinion and inbuilt system forbids us to talk about the negative aspects of miniority cultures that could do with changing.

If its to do with a minority culture we are only allowed to talk about good things, and I think that is wrong.

ALL cultures have good and bad things so why not have a free and open debate?

I completely expect this comment to be deleted, as for PC middle class on here somehow see this as a racist comment.

The Cat Man said...

Tressilliana,

Thats been my point all along. We are not allowed to talk about negative things that could be potentially related to some sort of different in cultural heritage

nobbly brick said...

no cats, you're wrong:

**Your** traditional British cultural heritage implicitly assumes **you** should be ashamed of **yourself** and that somehow **you** should have guilt about the historical differences that have existed between cultures in the past.


I'm stepping outside of your opinion there old chap

The Cat Man said...

Sorry nobby, I didn't quite get that ?

I must have my blond wig on today, or is that also too non-PC?

The Cat Man said...

Anyway, to do Nick a favour and to try at least get this thread back on track I have put a new article on my blog relating a little to what Sian was posting about earlier.

I never really though about the growing disparity between the new brockley middle class and the old working class and i think it warrants looking at. So please post any comments about that on my blog.

nobbly brick said...

I shall try and clarify:

you said (in part)

"The traditional British cultural heritage implicitly assumes we"

I changed the First person plural to the Second person singular to underline that these were your views and not perhaps the view of everyone.

The Cat Man said...

Ah ok.

That makes sense. Well, maybe that is true. But I don't understand why we cant have an open debate about everyones cultural heritage on here.

Interestly, the bbc has started a debate about health issues affecting different cultures/communities. It seems to be only the leftish middle class PC brigade that refuses to talk about it.

Its upsetting as I want Brockley to prosper, and I think we need to talk about these things.

max said...

You know what's the problem Cat Man, that people are not incline to debate "openly" with someone that consistently trumpets BNP style xenophobic nonsense like that one of your partner not being allowed to have a stall at the Christmas Market because the Council had reserved stalls for ethnic minorities or that post on your blog where you say that a neighbour of yours blasted his stereo ruining your Sunday afternoon and he wasn't white and English and you would have preferred a white and English stereo blaster instead.
It's a phenomenal pile of stupidity that you consistently posted over quite a length of time and until you realize that that is effectively poison nobody that knows the stuff you've been writing can take you seriously.

lb said...

Nick:

Pshaw, nothing relativist about it. Perhaps it would be if we were discussing questions of morality or law, but 80% of things people talk about on here are just a matter of taste, or at least of subjective opinion (what shops they'd like to shop in; what they like to do with their free time; whether they think anti-crime signs work).

But I suspect you know this already.

fabhat said...

If my complaints about noisy cars now appear to link me in with the social mores of Cat Man in the eyes of Nobbly Brick et al...then that is a depressing use of the meaning of prejudice.

As for the christmas market - I'm looking forward to going and wish that I was creative enough to be able to get a stall to sell things on.

ask/fab/hat

max said...

Just a thought on diverse communities, most people of different backgrounds get along together quite well, but to many it doesn't come easy, not because they are racists, but because we all are prejudiced until our prejudices are challenged, and this is true for people of every background, that's why people tend to congregate with those like them, because it makes them feel safer.
Unfortunately there are those that like to play on fears and tell you on how good it was in the good old times when everyone was the same, only glossing on how awful and narrow it also was.

The Cat Man said...

Ok, I will accept the issue with my partner/stalls is odd. I was also surprised to find out what he was saying. Maybe he lied to me? who knows. All I know is that he quoted the name of the lady at the council he spoke to and this was confirmed by Nick in Nick's initial reply to me over a year ago now.

Maybe he has own poltical agenda. He works for an embassay so this could be a distinct reality.

The other issue you mention is quote common about the perceived threat of confronting others from different communities.

My botswanian lodger (a lovely guy I might add) said himself that it is 'dangerous to approach a group of black men in the street'.

I don't like it, but at the very least its a common percetion that everyone holds true.

The real question I think we need to look at is to learn from each others communities and go forward.

Actually the most interesting aspect coming out of this is something that Sian mentioned and that is to do with the 'old brockley' and the 'new brockley'. I really sympathise with the old brockley in terms of the lifestyle issues faced by them from a wealth/poverty aspect and this is much more important to talk about that any issue of ethics.

lb said...

Catman, I'm sure I've seen you rubbing your hands with glee at rising property prices in Brockley several times in the past. If there's any single thing that impacts on the "lifestyle issues faced by [people] from a wealth/poverty aspect", it's the disparity between their salaries and the cost of owning a property in London. How can you now claim to sympathise with the downtrodden working class of the borough? You're a prime example of the rentier class yourself.

The Cat Man said...

Because I come from exactly one of those type of families IB.

Unlike the whole of my extend family, some of which live in council housing. I got a degree or two, had to break away from familly ties and frends and try and get a decent job that pays a reasonable amount which just allows me to afford a house.

Part of the problem faced by the poorer communities is self-induced. Part is also from the markets itself. I'd happy correct for market forces (to provide equal access) but they also need to get off their backside themselves. If you are from this type of background, its the second part that is extremely hard as you may feel that you work hard already. In reality, it could be that others are working even harder but they will not know that unless they integrate more.

max said...

Maybe they're not integrating with you, I mean, such a patronizing bore. And scared of the world!

spoon said...

Back to the Xmas issue: Just seen the Stalls advertised recently in Brockley Society Newsletter with request to send cheque for £40 in advance, without actually telling what one will get for it (stall, ok, but is there a light, how many hours is it gonna be open, what are the other ppl selling, how many stalls in total etc). Who is Brockley Action Group anyway? Where we can see history of previous actions (articles, pix, comments, statistics or even website link? No email, no phone) I'm bit cautious with sending the cheque off....

bank account and sort code said...

Payments by Wesern Union welcome - branches throughout West Brockley

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