The Broca Food Market, 209-211 Mantle Road

The Broca Food Market, west of the station, is finally opening for business.

The sister business to The Broca cafe, its contents have remained a closely-guarded secret until now, but owner Erin has finally spilled the beans. It will be a "community green grocers and grocery store, selling a load of delicious fresh fruit and vegetables, eggs and milk from a kent farm co-op."

Its official opening is December 13th to coincide with the Christmas market on Coulgate Street.

The chip and pin machine isn't up and running yet, so it's cash only until the 13th.

241 comments:

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Monkeyboy said...

Sorry, it's early I'm confused. Is actually open now in advance of it's official unveiling? It's just I'm off to get my weekly posh bread treat (£3.50 for some bread with few random nuts chucked in!) and may pop in

Hugh said...

Pity she had to add the word 'delicious'. Makes me think Broca is just another London outlet trading on spin.

Anonymous said...

No cafe element?

Brockley Nick said...

Heaven forbid a shopkeeper should indulge in a bit of salesmanship eh hugh?

No cafe to my knowledge. Was anyone apart from catman expecting one?

fred vest said...

£3.50 for some bread

will this be at the recession proof place?

Hugh said...

As a St Johns-side person, I may pop down to Broca today for research purposes. I'll also have a look at the place on the hill shop, the chippy and whatever else has happened near Brox station lately.

If I see a skinny pale dude in black jeans and Christopher Biggins specs sitting outside Toad's Mouth, I'll assume that's Nick.

Anonymous said...

I wasn't 'expecting' one but posts on here suggested it may be a possibility. I thought it may be a good idea based on the size of the place and the fact that I bypass the Broca often because it's simply too busy, ie. 3 people are in there.

Anonymous said...

Great news for the west side of the station. Well done Erin and best of luck!!

Anonymous said...

Won't they sell meat?

Anonymous said...

There are tables in there...

The Cat Man said...

there is a cafe there, but nick hey what do I know. If a few tables, a coffee machine and the owner telling me 'we are selling coffee' doesn't constitue a cafe then I stand corrected.

It's very a nice shop to visit. Went there tonight. Expected trading 9am to 9.30pm and it's presently only half full (hence the 'soft' opening.). The sign looks nice too!

The Cat Man said...

and I think it's quite some competition to dandelion blue - alot of the items presently sold rings 'deli' to my ears.

Anonymous said...

Are they selling meat?

Anonymous said...

They seemed more corner shop than deli. Good selection of veg, but things like bisto gravy don't seem to fit in, as you can get them any where. Looking forward to seeing what other stock is coming in as the shelves are rather empty at the moment. Good luck.

Monkeyboy said...

Looked at the website. Apparently...

"...will have a big selection of
affordable fruit, veg, meat...."

So yes they will sell dead animals for the eating off. Still recommend Wellbeloved if you are in the Deptford area for that though.

Anonymous said...

I agree, Wellbeloved is a graet local butcher. Great pies too.

Not proper Brockley said...

"(£3.50 for some bread with few random nuts chucked in!)"
seriously?
Jesus!
Better be about 8 foot long...

Anonymous said...

Cheap skate.

Anonymous said...

...and for that price, wrapped in gold leaf

13:24 said...

Anon 18:01 "..but things like bisto gravy don't seem to fit in, as you can get them any where. Looking forward to seeing what other stock is coming in as the shelves are rather empty at the moment"

intentional pun?!

Hopefully, Knorr and Marigold bouillion for we poncey foodies!

Anonymous said...

More of an OXO man myself.

Nothing wrong with a bit of bisto - if you're buying some meat and veg, why not get the gravy to go with it? Why the obsession with 100% different stock - its not like you cant get meat, fruit and veg in other shops!

Ilona said...

I love the new Broca Food Market and can't wait for the cappucino machine to be plumbed-in.

Great to see a new business on the other side of the tracks too.

Monkeyboy said...

Hope they get their pricing right, don't mind paying a little more for decent or difficult to get hold of stuff but need to get the balance right. I'm not into the 'reassuringly expensive' theory.

Good luck though, It was shut when I wondered past. I'll pop in next week.

Anonymous said...

Maybe they'll be slashing prices in line with the VAT cut

Anonymous said...

Really brightens up the street too. I drove past tonight and there were several people sitting in there - looked very inviting.

The Cat Man said...

you don't pay VAT on essential items like fruit and veg. Dandelion blue would of benefited from little bit of political gimmicery.

The broca food market is a very nice place. It does, however, suffer from being right up the 'organic mung bean eaters' alley. Honestly, the place is full of them. Us baked beans eaters feel quite claustrophobic.

I'm so lucky to have it on my doorstep too, I hope the coffee is better than the other place though. Having said that, I could make one at home and pop down there for a crossiant or something.

They don't sell cat food :0(

Anonymous said...

Ugh. Much as I welcome all comers to Brockley, I hope its not a shop full of Jeremy and Henriettas.

You do, however Mr Accountant, pay VAT on anything that is either eaten on-site or heated up.

Hugh said...

If you fear Jeremy and Henrietta overrunnng Brockley, you're about 40 years ahead of your time.

Anonymous said...

Well there's a Hugh here already....

Anonymous said...

Why, what's happening in 40 years?

Anonymous said...

Hugh's kids will be over running the place.

Anonymous said...

You can just imagine it.

"Barnaby! Henriettah! Tristram! - time for your dinnah!"

"Please mummy may we have artisan baps?"

I think I may vomit...

osh said...

Anon, what on earth are you talking about?

I've never met anyone like that and clearly neither have you.

Huge said...

A lot of class hate on here. But I suppose that's what you'd expect in a right-on, 'creative' neighbourhood.

Hung said...

The "right on"s are the demographic that form most of the above! They can't be self-hating, surely...

fred vest said...

as long as you're right on about gender, race, religion & disability then you're fine and you can proceed to the deli, dare to mention anything about the biggest inequality of them all, that of economic inequality (which cuts across all of the afore mentioned topics) then you're an odd out touch, misanthropic, angry marxist. and that's a full stop.

Monkeyboy said...

It's a shop, it'll self stuff, if people buy enough of said stuff it'll survive. Presumably it'll try something different from the other convenience stores around the area (apart from the Bisto)

Not really sure it needs any more analysis then that really, The Broca seems to be doing well so perhaps they have a better idea of what constitutes a good business then the rest of us. Go for it.....

fred vest said...

"It's a shop, it'll self stuff, if people buy enough of said stuff it'll survive."

dandelion blue is apparently doing well, recession proof even, yet it, as a shop, is not surviving

Monkeyboy said...

yep...perhaps the stuff it was selling and prices charged were misjudged? It's a shop, if it the outgoings are more than the costs then it'll still be here. Am I missing something?

nobbly brick said...

I bought vegetables from the two Turkish shops and the market in Lewisham over the weekend, came back with lots of stuff and change from a tenner. Walked there as well.

welcome to 2008 said...

Fred, dandelion blue's owners are moving to scotland. What's your point?

By the way, when has anyone dismissed you for saying economic inequality is bad? I only ever see you slagging off students and predicting we'll all be voting bnp in five years unless we address the "real issues". You never actually say what your ideas are.

fred vest said...

13 avocados for a quid

Monkeyboy said...

anyway, I've got a busy day oppressing the proletariat tomorrow. I need some sleep

Monkeyboy said...

yep...I bought load of veg from Deptford Market. I usually use Sainsbury's though. More convenient.

I wonder if Carl Marx was a Bisto or OXO man?

Who knows, who cares.

nobbly brick said...

gravy is the jus of the masses

Monkeyboy said...

...and I drove there. The only way I could be more unpopular on here is if I reversed over a cat.

G'night.

fred vest said...

my point is it's closing

can't say i've slagged off students as a group on here, in fact max accused me of this the other week and when asked to point out where i had done so he was unable to do, are you able to?

can't say i recall saying we'll all be voting BNP in 5 years either, i've pointed to the fact that they've went from nothing to being able to pull in near on a million votes in euro elections, that's a statement of fact, no prediction

and what do you mean what are my ideas? i don't have any, i'm merely pointing out that the situation that we are in at the moment has, and will continue to, lead to a support for scapegoatist parties like the BNP, and the mainstream parties seem happy to perpetuate the situation that gives rise to those conditions

what are your 'ideas' by the way?

Anonymous said...

Class hate worked for the French. The day I see some 'Rupert' in Brockley wearing salmon coloured jeans, brogues, and a rugby top with a turned up collar under his jumper is the day I sharpen my Guillotine.

Brockley Nick said...

The french class system is more rigid than ours.

I have a friend called Rupert. He's a very likeable fellow and not posh at all.

fred vest said...

depends on the definition nick, for example social mobility is lower in the uk (and the US) than in france, meaning if you're born poor you're more likely to remain poor

as for class hate all that happened in france in 1789 is pretty much what happened in england in 1649, once the genie was let out the bottle is was soon put back in by those who had released it as they got scared what it might ultimately lead to

Anonymous said...

I was using Rupert as an adjective.

Brockley Nick said...

He's been used and hurt before. Poor Rupert.

Anonymous said...

.....he's used to it.

Tamsin said...

To go back a bit, isn't food really confusing VAT-wise - like everything else about that daft tax. Jaffa Cakes are not VAT-able - but had to have a major court action to prove they are actually "essential", i.e. biscuits rather than "luxury", i.e. cakes. I have also heard what is probably an urban myth to the effect that technically, if your ice-cream melts while you are waiting in the check-out its VAT status changes.
Anyway a piddling 2.5% will make no difference whatsoever, just give accounts clerks everywhere a major head-ache as bills for services will have to be split before and after the change and all sorts of accounts packages re-programmed. A nightmare made worse for absolutely no reason. Thank you Gordon and Alistair.

The Cat Man said...

Tamsin, its quite interesting really. (well I think so). There is a classic example of a chocolate covered biscuit - like a penguin - which is highlighted in training classes as a way to use the Vat tables in tax legislation (sch 7,8,9 i believe). Basically, you go through a series of exceptions, e.g.

Is it a biscuit - yes (Non vatable), except for chocolate biscuit (vatable) except for partial covered chocolate less than 50% (non vatable) except for etc.... you get the idea.

i can never remember the conclusion on that one!

@Fred Vest, I have to be honest - you are pretty much spot on regarding the current political climate. I have no idea how you got to your conclusions (well, I suspect you walk around with your eyes open which is good) but the views of some poeple on here just smacks full of ignorance. I.e. as long as they 'feel' they are tackling the issues on behalf of poor people then it doesnt really matter to much if they are suffering in reality. They have done their bit, so can rest and go an deat their organic mung bean loaf.

I ditto the inequality of mobilility statistics for UK and US, although I understand recently in the UK this has got partially better between 2000 and 2005.

Unfortunately, I think we are only now seeing the outcomes from the thatcher period as people are growing up.

My generation, for example, and each subsequent generation will be poorer then their parents. The direct effect of a globalised workforce.

Sheridan said...

Is Hugh auditioning for Lady Sneerwell or Mrs Candour?

Headhunter said...

"Barnaby! Henriettah! Tristram! - time for your dinnah!"

"Please mummy may we have artisan baps?"

I think I may vomit...

30 November 2008 21:18

That made me laugh, except for one fatal flaw. Barnaby, Henrietta or Tristram would never, ever call them "baps", waaaaay too working class... You're betraying your roots there, anon

Hugh said...

Keepin in real, bluds. Distinguish the playa and the game u get me.

lb said...

They'd no doubt be eating them for "supper" as well.

Incidentally, is there any substantive difference between a "community green grocer" and a "green grocer", or is "community" another of these words like "delicious"?

lb said...

Hugh: Allow it.

fred vest said...

that word intrigued me as well but i didn't have the energy

The Cat Man said...

I think community has commonly been associated with the 'local' community around you, as opposed to a community in jamaca supplying fair trade bananas.

however, and this is interesting, this is how capitalism works. i.e. once a 'name' has been associated with good things, that people want, the big corporates move in and change the meaning of the word to make a quick buck (in this case charging the same prices but for 'community' food that actually was produced in asia and not in the UK.

Its called branding, and it rips off customers.

lb said...

Oh, I agree it's probably branding, given that any shop can be said to serve its community.

I also agree that international conglomerates have been quick to adopt the rhetoric of 'ethical' commerce. I doubt the Broca is really comparable to an international conglomerate though, and I don't think the use of 'community' here is meant to have any associations vis-a-vis the kind of producers you're supporting.

I expect it's supposed to instill a kind of warm, fuzzy feeling of (self) worthiness shopping there. Though no doubt saying this will have me marked down as a ranting Proudhonian curmudgeon.

Brockley Nick said...

@lb - had you down for that long ago.

I hope that in my writing style I have demonstrated a preference for lean prose, but surely we can allow one or two extraneous words and phrases now and again?

Particularly in this case, when I think Erin (organiser of the Fun Run, member of Brockley Cross Action Group, active participant in the xmas market, provider of home to local book and ukulele groups) can claim use of that word with more justifcation than most.

The Cat Man said...

I was really making my comment along the lines of Nicks reasoning. I.e.s its ok for Erin, but less ok for a large mass produce company.

The branding element I was referring to was that consumers feel alright to pay a little more in a shop like Erins then in a large chain. The large corporate will then 're-brand' and use words like 'community' which have an established meaing through consumers shopping at places like Erins.

The legal position is, any community is a community, so a consumer may still have this 'warm fuzzy feel good factor' but pay money to a large corporate who has re-branded to use the word community although in reality the consumer is paying the same prices but not supporting their local community.

Marks and Spencers are very good at doing that.

PS: I'm looking forward to going into the Broca market tonight. Hope the coffee machine is working.

monkeyboy said...

what is mung bean anyway?

Anonymous said...

don't think the coffee machine is up yet.

Anonymous said...

You raise an interesting point on the somewhat barbed use of the word "community"

It joins words like "artisan" in "artisan bread"

And "pan" in "pan fried"...

I mean I saw an advert for corn-fed chicken breast today. Jesus... what a load of old cock.

Sorry, "aged" cock.

lb said...

"The large corporate will then 're-brand' and use words like 'community' which have an established meaing through consumers shopping at places like Erins"

Yes, I'm aware that your globalisation hobby-horse has run away with you at this point, but my original point was that there's no real difference between a "green grocer" and a "community green grocer". Sure, Erin seems like a nice enough person, from the couple of times I've bought coffee off her, and she's a relatively active person locally, but does this make the green grocers itself any more "community" than, say, Costcutter, or the shops selling fruit and veg on Loampit Hill, for example?

For me, words like "community" are a bit overused; it's the 21st century equivalent of adding "o-mat" to the shop name in the late 1950s.

The Cat Man said...

I dont like mung bean, its often found in japanese or chinese biscuits/cakes.

A fairly bland and 'bitty' taste when you eat it.

Often mixed with other things like Plum or Figs.

btw: Bitty NOT as in bitty from Little Britain.

Anonymous said...

I buy my community kebabs from Gulen's

The Cat Man said...

Ib, the fruit and veg she sells comes from a co-op farm in Kent. I consider that fairly local although i'm not sure I share the same 'community' with the farmers in kent....

Anonymous said...

How do we get to the new shop?
Where is it exactly?
Brockley Jim

Anonymous said...

Is it below that new block of flats on Mantle Road? I wonder how well it will do on this side of the tracks.
Brockley Jim

Headhunter said...

Cat Man/Monkey Boy - Mung beans are mainly used in India, Bangladesh and I think to some extent in China. They are not particularly readily used in Japan, although are occasionally used.

Cat Man - The bean you're thinking of in Japanese food (often sweetened in japanese confectionery) is Azuki bean

Headhunter said...

The shop is on the dark side, cross the bridge over the railway from front of DB or Broca and then bear left on the other side and you should see it....

drakefell debaser said...

I wonder how well it will do on this side of the tracks.

It might come as a surprise to you, Brockley Jim, but there are vegetable eaters west of the tracks.

lb said...

"the fruit and veg she sells comes from a co-op farm in Kent"

I think that probably refers mostly to the eggs and milk, given that even Kent won't be producing much in the way of fruit and veg at this time of year.

I have to say that the mung bean is a poor symbol for the latte-snorting urban middle classes - it's more the sort of thing I'd associate with leftover '70s vegans and terribly earnest New Age types.

Brockley Nick said...

Whereas a fondness for milky coffee is a much better indicator? Let's face it, they're all pretty feeble sticks to beat the Brockley middle classes with. ;)

lb said...

"milky coffee is a much better indicator?"

Given current prices of a bucket of milky coffee, then yes, probably. Spending a few quid on your daily coffees is a fairly middle-class luxury, I'd have thought.

Any market researchers in the, er, comments box?

All the World said...

NICE AND SIMPLE: Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil

Direct from the finca (farm) in Andalucia, Spain.

Buy as much or as little as you want (Supply your own bottle).

1/4 litre = £4
1/2 litre = £8
1 litre = £16

Tel: 077 6668 7759

Anonymous said...

"It might come as a surprise to you, Brockley Jim, but there are vegetable eaters west of the tracks."
I wasn't being snobbish Drakefell Debaser but it is not so busy on the west side, less shops, less traffic and less pedestrians. So might be harder for a business to do so well. But good luck to them.
Brockley Jim

lb said...

Having just noted the olive oil post(s), I see there's no actual need for the "anoymous satirists" at all - the comic timing of Reality itself is quite enough.

Anonymous said...

re Ib's comment

??????????

drakefell debaser said...

Would the price of the oil have anything to do with it?

It had better be better than jesus wee for that price and I might be tempted to get a small measure.

Hugh said...

PS I love large corporations. They are ace.

Monkeyboy said...

Oh well done DB. This blog has already offended mung bean munchers, angry marxists, bemused facists and now, with your input, Christians.

The Cat Man said...

Don't get me started on middle class hyprocrosy, did I mention that my firm has effectively banned christmas? We have a 'festive' party completely non-religious although we have a whole day dedicated to celebrate the festival of light.

Brockley Nick said...

@Catman

What has that got to do with the middle classes? Or banning anything?

You've told us many times that you work for one of the big accountancy firms and that there are people from all over the world working in your offices. What's wrong with calling it a "festive" party rather than Christmas. You'll still get a Christmas holiday and presumably you're free to celebrate Christmas as you see fit.

Brockley Nick said...

PS - how many days public holiday did you get for Diwali? Where did the firm's Diwali party take place?

max said...

Catman, what is your prayer routine?

Monkeyboy said...

Blimey, fancy banning the winter solstice festival thing. Are they banning the pagan symbols too? you know a fir tree, holly and mistletoe?

Anonymous said...

I was wondering when this years first anecdotal "the muzzies have banned christmas" story might turn up

Monkeyboy said...

...and anyway what has a office party to do with celebrating the birth of Jesus? getting drunk, photocopying your arse on the office photocopier and trying to snog Susan from HR in the stationary cupboard.

Festival of Bacchus may be more appropriate.

Pedant said...

I tried to snog Susan in a moving cupboard last year. Never again.

Monkeyboy said...

...sigh and there's me putting in the 'Bacchus' reference in to show the depth of my knowledge. Hoisted on my own wotsit.

The Cat Man said...

The hypocrocy is due to my firm actively promoting one religion above others. In this instance, the 'festival of light' was celebrated by our atrium being transformed into appropriate religious symbols with people being paid, yes paid, to give out traditional food items to those who walked in from outside, dressed in traditional outfits.

On the other hand, the removal of reference to christmas - although not very religious nowadays - has completely removed any reference to the christian religion.

What should of happened - if all religions were equal - would be to have an all encompassing 'festive' party for all to enjoy and have different days celebrating the different religions. This doesnt happen.

I happen to know several christians at my firm who find this completely alienating.

This is the hypocracy - if its considered 'normal' its not promoted. In this instance, the result being not all religions being equal.

I'm not religious btw so no hidden agenda.

The Cat Man said...

Bacchus = thats what my firm called the party.

The christians i spoke to feel completely alienated as this apparently is in reference to drunk orgies, something that they frown upon.

The Cat Man said...

especially as its supposed to be a celebration of christmas.

Anonymous said...

A party for all the religions?

Are you suggesting some sort of Winterval?

Please read this before commenting further

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/08/religion.communities

Graham said...

Just to bring us back to the subject in hand, I've just been in the Broca Food Market, and loved it. Great veg and some other nice stuff at good prices. I'll be back lots and lots. Oh, and they have compostable carrier bags, which is always good.

Monkeyboy said...

"The christians i spoke to feel completely alienated as this apparently is in reference to drunk orgies, something that they frown upon."

Oh my aching sides, stop please Andy! this is too funny!

Anonymous said...

What's wrong with good old fashioned british carrier bags? Another sign of the Mung Elite taking over...

fred vest said...

well the christians at your work must be pretty ignorant if that's what they think Bacchus means (or represented) maybe they should gain some knowledge of what something is or means before, not after, they decide to become offended by it

christianity wouldn't have a number of the features it does today if it wasn't for the influence of dionysus, for example the whole water into wine myth was taken directly from dionysus myth, and a lot of the notions of bachhus/dionysus are pretty similar to christian looniness as well

fred vest said...

"Oh, and they have compostable carrier bags,"

i can never understand stuff like that - what's wrong with folk using the same carrier bag over and over again?

Monkeyboy said...

What are you SOME KIND OF COMMUNIST!


.....oh yeah, sorry.

(can't help it, Andy's prudish Christians are making write daft comments)

drakefell debaser said...

Maybe the Christians disproved of Saints Sergius & Bacchus or just found the white wine on offer disappointing.

Catman, in September you told us your firm is scrapping the xmas tree, now it seems the whole celebration is going in the bin. Do you work for PWC? Have you rung the scum yet as they might run with your story? I take it though, what ever party your heathen bosses decide to throw, someone will be paid, yes paid, to keep the champagne in order?

Brockley Jim, I totally misconstrued your points today and apologise.

Brockely National Party said...

Oh blast it, so wish I'd read this thread earlier!

Only Catman could use an analogy of Jamaicans running a banana farm ha ha ha, he just can't help himself!

Us BNP supporters love you Catman!

Jt said...

What are the opening times?

The Cat Man said...

when its not closed.

Anonymous said...

Mung-day to Friday

Anonymous said...

I went there last night and looked like they would have a good range of fresh produce and also dried stuff. Prices on the fruit & veg seemed pretty reasonable as well - looks like it is going to be a great addition to the area

Headhunter said...

Fred -
"Oh, and they have compostable carrier bags,"

"i can never understand stuff like that - what's wrong with folk using the same carrier bag over and over again?"

Because the simple fact is that most people don't re-use placcy bags, they just stick them in the bin after a single use then they end up in landfill where they slowly decay over several centuries

Hugh said...

so they do decay then?

Anonymous said...

What's wrong with that though - loads of things slowly decay over centuries - why pick on the bags?

I bet you're the sort of person who uses a "bag for life" Headhunter...

Jt said...

Actually it's probably better I spend my money in town, rather than trek across the bridge on the off chance this new place is open.

The Cat Man said...

Be wary of the prices. I remember when the broca cafe opened - coffee at one quid. Then it went upto one fifty. Expect the same for the new place.

I agree it is a nice shop, very qwirky and oh so very mung bean. Erins Ginger too - honestly see, it's all related! I expect gorilla gardening to take off big time west side.

Headhunter said...

Yes they DO decay, but not before millions of them have leached their constituent chemicals into the water table... the water which you (and I) drink...

I'm not picking on bags, anything plastic and disposable is as bad

No I don't use a "bag for life", I cycle everywhere and have a big rucksack for everything

drakefell debaser said...

Erins Ginger too - honestly see, it's all related!

Have you tired of people of colour then and decided to stick the boot in with ginger haired folk?

Hairist!

Headhunter said...

Cat Man - £1.50 for a coffee is hardly unreasonable for London.

"Gorilla gardening"?! What's that? King Kong with garden shears? Don't you mean guerilla gardening?

Anonymous said...

if you're grumbling at £1.50 for a coffee may I suggest a change of career?

Tressilliana said...

We use our plastic bags as bin bags. Of course, in SE4 they don't leach into the water table, as we go for air pollution from the incinerator instead.

The Cat Man said...

I grumble when the coffee tastes shi*te.

Yeah, bored of immigration now, lets pick on ginger haired people.

Next on the list will be picking on head-hunter purely because of his names' sexual undertones.

Anonymous said...

you were prepared to drink it when it was £1.00.

fred vest said...

"Because the simple fact is that most people don't re-use placcy bags, they just stick them in the bin after a single use then they end up in landfill where they slowly decay over several centuries"

personally i reuse them, but even if people don't - so what? the impact of them (in terms of cimate change)is next to nothing in context and polly bags use up less energy to both make & recycle than other sorts, paper etc.. so again this whole tut tutting from well meaning liberals about things like this is all about the 'warm glow' for the individual and makes zero difference outside of their selves

same with energy efficient lightbulbs, absolutely pointless & useless (in terms of climate change)and all about, literally a warm glow

these two things, plastic bags & low energy lightbulbs get talked about publicly by gordon brown at the highest levels of govt in a fit of 'do something' politics, but not a peep about the massive energy consumpion of each new generation of plasma tv's, games consoles and other electrical equipment around the house

it's pure tokenism for invidual feelgood factor, and there's nothing wrong with that as longs that's what it's seen for and nothing else

Brockley Nick said...

Low energy lightbulbs are not just tokenism, they are an important tool in cutting domestic energy use.

Plastic bags are not a key issue in terms of our use of hydrocarbons, but they are a bloody menace in terms of littering our streets.

Even if it's only a tiny step, it doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

Anonymous said...

"i can never understand stuff like that - what's wrong with folk using the same carrier bag over and over again?"

Er, because at some point it will break and need throwing away.

Headhunter said...

Fred - I don't think polly bag use and production is a huge matter of concern with regard to climate change. As you say, production and recycling of these has limited impact on the climate, however plastic bags are of course, largely made from oil, extraction of which is definitely damaging and quite energy intensive.

Plastic production is also a relatively chemical intensive process, plastic bags are largely made of ethylene which has to be processed from oil.

These chemicals later leach into the soil and affect the water table. Certainly in Brockley there are no landfill sites, however our water doesn't come from some local Brockley reservoir, so our water is still likely to be affected by chemical leach.

A major problem with plastic bags is also their increasing prevelance at sea, where they are ingested by sea birds and mammals or wrap themselves around coral etc causing much damage. I read somewhere that plastic bags are now the most commonly sighted man-made object at sea!

If plastic bags are not a problem though, why do you re-use them?

Equally, low energy bulbs are not "pointless", they do reduce carbon use and serve a purpose. Certainly the impact of "normal" bulbs on overall climate change may be limited, but preventing climate damage is not about 1, cure all, simple and effective solution. Changing your light bulbs is one small thing, reducing car use is another, reducing the number of flights you take yet another etc etc. I'm afraid no one has one big solution - "if you do this, then climate change is history".

I do agree though that politicians tend to latch get carried away with public pressure sometimes, focussing on small solutions like light bulbs and plastic bags, when they really should be more involved in pushing for research and funding into renewable energy, pushing supranational organisations like the EU into setting tough targets and complying with the Kyoto protocol. These are likely to be more of a long term solution.

My personal bug bear is also the enormous waste of power and resources in offices/ther commercial sector. How often do you pass through cities at night to see building lit from the ground floor all the way up at night, when no one is around?

Climate change and environmental damage is not simply a "middle class" problem and using a bag for life does not give me a "warm glow" and it is not "tokenism"....

fred vest said...

then you get another one, you can use them about 11 times before they break

fred vest said...

@ nick
a reduction in the amount of food bought & wasted or not upgrading your telly every few years would dwarf any tokenisitic savings made by light bulbs, funny how the finger prodders never offer up these things as examples of what we all should be doing - maybe because 'doing something' actually involves not having one element of your life impacted by 'doing it', which again is fair enough but the hypcorisy of it from some people really gets on your wick, in fact it makes you incandescent with rage

i agree litter is a seperate issue though for plastic blags which is why i said, 'in terms of climate change' but i've got to be honest it's pretty rare that i see plastic bags in the streets these days, at least not many in relation to a whole heap of other junk, like old sofas and tv's, bits of chicken, and plastic bottles of coke and stuff like that

Headhunter said...

Exactly Fred. Reducing food waste and not upgrading your telly every few years are other parts of the overall solution...

Put all these things together and you have the answer

Anonymous said...

"then you get another one, you can use them about 11 times before they break"

Yes - and what happens to the broken one? Come on, try and think it through.

nobbly brick said...

yeah come on Fred, think it through

;)

max said...

Would it be a contradiction to buy this gadget to save energy?
http://tinyurl.com/55kxzn

Anonymous said...

"a reduction in the amount of food bought & wasted or not upgrading your telly every few years would dwarf any tokenisitic savings made by light bulbs, funny how the finger prodders never offer up these things as examples of what we all should be doing"
Eh? I'm always reading articles about just these kinds of measures. In fact there was recently a major advertising campaign about not wasting food.

Headhunter said...

Max - Yeah I've heard of those things. How do they work? They simply make you aware of how much money you're spending don't they?

fred vest said...

@hh,

i'm not saying there is one simple solution to it all, but clearly some approaches seem to be more about some kind of misguided principle than anything else. i mean if you looked into all the energy that went into things like low energy lightbulb and plastic bag campaigns i'm sure what token differences you get from them on the plus side would be wiped out, and even if it isn't there's a massive elephant, no in fact a complete zoo, over there in the corner of the room

surely that energy could be put into projects with a little more payback than that - for example today it was announced that european energy companies will once again be given for free carbon credits to pollute, time after time we're told that they will eventually have to pay for these credits which will put the financial motivations in place to shift towards carbon capture & reneewables etc.. but no, they are continually given out for free, but not just that the notional cost of them are added onto our energy bills as consumers resulting in billions of pounds (£9bn between 2008-2012) transfer from customers to suppliers with no realy way of ensuring that this money is used for R&D into carbon capture and the like, they even get subsidiies (the renewables obligation, RO) from us as consumers for renewable energy that doesn't even get produced! they just pocket the cash

using slightly less energy through lightbulbs each year is nothing compared to putting huge efforts & resources into at least trying to make CCS a viable approach, at least to tide us over until some kind of solar power can be harnsassed, hopefully before the last bits of carbon are finally extracted & burnt

fred vest said...

"Yes - and what happens to the broken one? Come on, try and think it through."

you put it in the bin and it makes no difference to the environment/climate change, just like what happens if you don't reuse them and you bin them after their first use

i.e. it makes no difference either way, ergo i can't see why people get so het up about them

fred vest said...

"Would it be a contradiction to buy this gadget to save energy?"

mental the crap they come out with - if i've left a light on in my place i can tell by the fact that there's erm... a light on, ditto everything else - only consumer capitalism could come up with a machine to tell you about things that are right in front of you!

it's the height of lazy society surely, everything got to be mediated by something else

Headhunter said...

Fred - Certainly in the grand scheme of things, changing yuor light bulbs and not using disposable plastic bags have a limited impact, but don't you think that these small initiatives start the ball rolling? They get people thinking about the problem. Once they have started with these things, hopefully they may go onto the bigger picture stuff, and climate/environmental problems may actually influence larger decisions like who they vote for.

Of course it's up to politicians and business to address things like solar power or use of carbon credits. Unless we become activists or get involved in our local Greenpeace/FOE/Green Party cell, there's likely to be little we can do about things like this

"you put it in the bin and it makes no difference to the environment/climate change, just like what happens if you don't reuse them and you bin them after their first use

i.e. it makes no difference either way, ergo i can't see why people get so het up about them"

As I pointed out above they DO have an impact on the environment. You are (again) mixing up climate change with environmental damage. THe 2 are not the same thing

Headhunter said...

Hmmmm.... You really are a bit of a glass half empty kinda guy, ain't you Fred?!

Anonymous said...

It's not just about climate change though. Please re-read Headhunters wise words above on the effects of plastic bags on our water table and natural environment.

fred vest said...

"Hmmmm.... You really are a bit of a glass half empty kinda guy, ain't you Fred?!"

Yes. I am a very miserable man whose only pleasure in life is making knee-jerk anti 'liberal' comments on a messageboard.

Headhunter said...

OK, glad we sorted that out... Now about climate change....

The Cat Man said...

It is a middle class issue though, why else do you think it has managed to get on the political agenda?

If it doesn't win important votes it won't get discussed. Our economic structure is geared towards the middle classes.

fred vest said...

hh/anon, sorry but i'm struggling to see the point here, ok if we take out climate change from the equation it takes away all issues about the oil/energy used to make & recycle them

so what does that leave us with in terms of problems?

landfill issues? plastic bags constitue 0.05% of all waste going to landfill - is the other 99.95% receiving anything like the proportionate effort/energy that polly bags are?

litter? this is a problem of people's behaviour and/or lack of access to bins etc..

the problem to wildlife at sea? - what do the experts have to say about this:-

[It's very unlikely that many animals are killed by plastic bags. The evidence shows just the opposite]

[Lord Taverne, the chairman of Sense about Science, said: “The Government is irresponsible to jump on a bandwagon that has no base in scientific evidence. This is one of many examples where you get bad science leading to bad decisions which are counter-productive. Attacking plastic bags makes people feel good but it doesn’t achieve anything.” ]

[The central claim of campaigners is that the bags kill more than 100,000 marine mammals and one million seabirds every year. However, this figure is based on a misinterpretation of a 1987 Canadian study in Newfoundland, which found that, between 1981 and 1984, more than 100,000 marine mammals, including birds, were killed by discarded nets. The Canadian study did not mention plastic bags]

[Fifteen years later in 2002, when the Australian Government commissioned a report into the effects of plastic bags, its authors misquoted the Newfoundland study, mistakenly attributing the deaths to “plastic bags”.]

[The figure was latched on to by conservationists as proof that the bags were killers. For four years the “typo” remained uncorrected. It was only in 2006 that the authors altered the report, replacing “plastic bags” with “plastic debris”. But they admitted: “The actual numbers of animals killed annually by plastic bag litter is nearly impossible to determine.” ]

[In a postscript to the correction they admitted that the original Canadian study had referred to fishing tackle, not plastic debris, as the threat to the marine environment.]
Regardless, the erroneous claim has become the keystone of a widening campaign to demonise plastic bags.

[Professor Geoff Boxshall, a marine biologist at the Natural History Museum, said: “I’ve never seen a bird killed by a plastic bag. Other forms of plastic in the ocean are much more damaging. Only a very small proportion is caused by bags.” ]

[John Lewis added that a scheme in Ireland had reduced plastic bag usage, but sales of bin liners had increased 400 per cent]

http://tinyurl.com/2hsy8v

Anonymous said...

This has just become pointless bickering now...what's new

The Cat Man said...

re: plastic bags. Has anyone considered the effects of transportation costs? I understand that 'black bin bags' are still manufactured in the UK.

A situation could well arise that the increased pollution from extended importation/transportation may offset the use of locally made bin bags.

so RARRRR! to all the henriettas out there....

Anonymous said...

To quote an excellent interview I saw with Marco Pierre White the other day "there are millions of people in the UK trying to support a family on £20k or less - and all these other people care about is free-range chickens. It's so inconsiderate".

Anonymous said...

"Plastic bags take up to 1000 years to break down and thus are highly persistent visual pollutants. As noted by the British Antarctic Survey plastic bags have gone "from being rare in the late 80s and early 90s to being almost everywhere from Spitsbergen 78° North [latitude] to Falklands 51° South [latitude]…..they'll be washing up in Antarctica within the decade."
Plastic, including plastic bags, are a major hazard to wildlife. According to the Marine Conservation
Society’s Beachwatch 2003 Report, based on 135 km of UK coastline, plastic items accounted for over
50% of the litter found, including 5,831 plastic bags, the equivalent of 43 plastic bags for every kilometre of coastline surveyed.
In the recent survey coordinated by the Marine and Coastal Zone Research Institute in the Netherlands, scientists found that 96% of dead fulmars studied had plastic fragments in their stomachs, double the
amount found in fulmars in the early 1980s."

I guess it depends who you believe. Personally, I find it's very little bother to re-use a bag and it may have a positive effect on our environment so I do.

fred vest said...

that thing that you quoted talks about two things, litter which as i said above is more to do with people's behaviour than anything inherently wrong

the other point about plastic in dead animals is a fair point, but where is the evidence to say that this constitutes plastic from plastic bags, all that quote is saying is the same as what i quoted from that times article above, i.e.

[I’ve never seen a bird killed by a plastic bag. Other forms of plastic in the ocean are much more damaging. Only a very small proportion is caused by bags]

i reuse them myself, but only because my gf tells me to, not that i think it actually has any impact

Jt said...

It's odd how the focus is on plastic bags when we can all see that the bulk of rubbish in our bins is the packaging and this has been talked about for years now.

Headhunter said...

Fred - I'll be back with a response...

Anon - It is not anyone's automatic right to have cheap access to plentiful supply of meat. Go back a couple of centuries and people survived on very limited amounts of meat. In fact go back to WW2, when meat was rationed, people ate it perhaps once or twice a week.

What's inconsiderate is expecting inefficient use of resources and cruel farming practice to provide tons and tons of meat just because everyone wants to eat it with every meal.

I'm not saying that everyone needs to be vegetarian, but over consumption of meat is yet another cause of environmental damage and cruelty and obesity.

Headhunter said...

Fred

“The success of the plastic bag has meant a dramatic increase in the amount of sacks found floating in the oceans where they choke, strangle, and starve wildlife and raft alien species around the world, according to David Barnes, a marine scientist with the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, England, who studies the impact of marine debris.
Barnes said that plastic bags have gone "from being rare in the late 80s and early 90s to being almost everywhere from Spitsbergen 78° North [latitude] to Falklands 51° South [latitude], but I'll bet they'll be washing up in Antarctica within the decade."
Are Plastic Grocery Bags Sacking the Environment?
John Roach
for National Geographic News
September 2, 2003

So as the other poster says, it depends on who you believe.

“the other point about plastic in dead animals is a fair point, but where is the evidence to say that this constitutes plastic from plastic bags, all that quote is saying is the same as what i quoted from that times article above, i.e.”

But the point is it’s not just disposable plastic bags which are the problem, but disposable anything and especially plastic… This could be plastic takeaway containers, plastic razors, plastic packaging round that new telly etc etc

Anonymous said...

"litter? this is a problem of people's behaviour and/or lack of access to bins etc.."

If everyone re-used plastic bags then there would be less litter because they would throw away fewer bags. If the plastic bags they re-used were also compostable (which is where we came in) then even better.

fred vest said...

"In fact go back to WW2, when meat was rationed, people ate it perhaps once or twice a week."

go back to WW2 and 6 million jews were murdered - doesn't mean we've got to do the same today, we are where we are

shouldn't be long now before someone mentions malthus

fred vest said...

"But the point is it’s not just disposable plastic bags which are the problem, but disposable anything and especially plastic… This could be plastic takeaway containers, plastic razors, plastic packaging round that new telly etc etc"

well that's a completely different argument to the one we've being having which was specifically about the merits of banning or stopping plastic bags and as i said even the arguments that i quoted made it clear about the difference between plastic in general and that added by plastic bags, your original posts on the topic specifically talked about plastic bags as well

policy/activity on plastic bags (which was the topic of the discussion) won't make the slightest difference to all the other sources of plastic contamination - which i do agree is far far more important than what people do with their plastic bags

fred vest said...

actually scrap that last post from me, disposable domestic plastic stuff is still pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things compared to plastic pollutants dumped in the sea by industry, i thought you were referring to these when referring to plastic but you're still just on about the odd thing that folk throw away

drakefell debaser said...

I was in the queue as Sainsburys earlier this year when a customer in front complained about paying for a bag when the packaging on all the produce was OTT. It’s a good point, if the packaging on what we eat was reduced significantly then we would not throw away half as much plastic related rubbish.

Plastic bags can be also be recycled and made into clothes, Radiohead have their gig T’s made of them and they are surprisingly comfortable. Beats Fruit of the Loom for a start.

Headhunter said...

Fred - Oh great, so because I fleetingly mention that during the war, meat was rationed, I'm now compare to Hitler/genocide - clutching at straws to make your point there matey!

The amount of meat recommended daily (or meat substitute such as tofu, soy protein, eggs, nuts or seeds) is about 5oz. Most people eat way too much and this is the reason we have a burgeoning meat production system. As I said I am not a vegetarian and believe that meatis necessary but nations such as the Japanese which traditionally consume low levels of meat are often cited as the healthiest in teh world.

It is only here in the west where we insist on slabs of meat with every meal leading to obesity, diabetes, constipation and raised cholesterol, not to metion highly inefficient use of resources feeding up animals on farms.

Increasing humane production of meat, increases price and therefore reduces consumption. All for the better.

Headhunter said...

"policy/activity on plastic bags (which was the topic of the discussion) won't make the slightest difference to all the other sources of plastic contamination - which i do agree is far far more important than what people do with their plastic bags"

Well I'm talking about plastic bags as part of a larger level of disposable plastic, however as pointed out above, plastic bags also cause environmental problems and their use should be limited

Headhunter said...

"actually scrap that last post from me, disposable domestic plastic stuff is still pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things compared to plastic pollutants dumped in the sea by industry, i thought you were referring to these when referring to plastic but you're still just on about the odd thing that folk throw away"

I have been talking much bigger picture right from the start. your argument seems to be "well it won't make the blindest difference if I stop using placcy bags, non-efficient bulbs, so what the hey..." As I have been saying all along, these are all small things which create the overall solution. You appear to be ready to do nothing until someone says "if you do X then environmental damage and global warming will finish" and until that day nothing can be done

fred vest said...

"Fred - Oh great, so because I fleetingly mention that during the war, meat was rationed, I'm now compare to Hitler/genocide"

no the point was that we can all look back to any specific point in the past and draw inferences from them/parallels with them, but given we are not in the past but we are where we are i don't see the point of it - i used an extreme example to show how stupid such comparisons were, i didn't mean to infer anything about you as a person from it, i thought that would have been obvious

Anonymous said...

"go back to WW2 and 6 million jews were murdered - doesn't mean we've got to do the same today, we are where we are"

Yes that's right Fred. Comparing meat consumption today with the equivalent during WW2 is EXACTLY THE SAME as killing 6 million jews.
Twat.

Tressilliana said...

Once again, HH, I heartily agree with you. The general health of the UK population improved out of all recognition during the period of rationing. Less fat, less sugar, less white flour, more fruit, more veg, more pulses, far less meat. Rationing ensured that the rich couldn't commandeer the scarce items, so it worked very well. That plus rationing of petrol meant that people were much fitter.

The odd thing is that one might have expected more mental illness during the war, given the huge stresses people were living under, but in fact the statistics seem to suggest that there was less. Whether this is because there were fewer psychiatrists around to diagnose it is a moot point. It seems that many people, especially middle-aged and older women, were much happier because they got out to work and were always busy.

fred vest said...

no hh, i made an initial point that plastic bags were irrelevant both for climate change & environment, and in context they are irrelevant. that doesn't mean i'm a climate change denier, or dont' care about the environment, or don't think things need to be urgently done, but at the same time embraching tokenisitc/warm glow things do nothing in terms of even beginning to address the problem, and my point all along has been an amazement at the disproportionate amount of focus/energy goes into these tokenistic schemes

so, less of the strawman arguing please, if you don't want to engage on the point being made fair enough, but don't twist it into something that it's not just because you happen to have an answer for it

fred vest said...

"Yes that's right Fred. Comparing meat consumption today with the equivalent during WW2 is EXACTLY THE SAME as killing 6 million jews.
Twat."

would you like me to introduce you to the point one of these days, you really should meet him at some stage

Anonymous said...

Headhunter, it must be so restrictive at times to be, in essence, a stereotype.

Headhunter said...

Exactly Tressilliana, I have read that the UK as a nation has never been healthier than during WW2 when we had limited access to refined foods like white sugar, meat in excessive quantities and relied on locally/home grown fruit and veg to keep us alive.

Fred - there is no parallel between this and genocide. I really don't know what you're on about....

Actually did anyone see that documentary a couple of months ago about the longest lived people on earth? They looked at people in Japan, the US, Europe and found that most of these people ate varied diets but also ate in relatively small quantities and often left the table a little hungry. It seemed to indicate that the body is far better served by eating in small quantities rather than gorging, no matter what you eat, eb it healthy or otherwise. This is perhaps what happened in the war.

Headhunter said...

Well, rather a stereotype than someone who compares intelligent eating with WW2 genocide...

Tressilliana said...

'ate in relatively small quantities and often left the table a little hungry. '

This is where theory and practice start to diverge for me!

Headhunter said...

"so, less of the strawman arguing please, if you don't want to engage on the point being made fair enough, but don't twist it into something that it's not just because you happen to have an answer for it"

Strawman! What was that whole genocide point again? Run that by me one more time, would you?

So essentially we seem to be saying the same thing, that the plastic bag/efficient bulbs thing is a tiny part of an overall picture, however I believe that no matter how small, any initiative to combat environmental damage is worth pursuing in the hope that it will lead to greater awareness and further ideas and pressure to change the bigger things.

However you seem to think that we shouldn't be bothering with these frankly inadequate initiatives because they really make no difference and, and... Err I don't know what else you suggest... What exactly is your solution?

fred vest said...

"Fred - there is no parallel between this and genocide."

if i wrapped up the point in (biodegradbale) velcro and give you a pair of (biodegradbale)velcro gloves do you think you might be able to hold onto it?

Anonymous said...

Seriously guys, how do you lot get any work done?

Paul

fred vest said...

"What exactly is your solution?"

i don't have a solution, i'm not sure there even is one within the context of the society we live within, i.e. a society run along lines that is based on short term exploitation and degradation of nature and the environment, in the pursuit of profit and with no regard to the long term implications of doing so, one in which where those profiting from/exploting/degrading bear no responsibility for the real costs of such activities - that's the dynamic of the society we live in, it's part and parcel of where we are now

but i do know that fannying around with things that don't make any difference can only serve to distract attention away from attempts to find one that does and would even go as far as to say that these tinkering around the edges provides a perfect smokescreen/cover under the guise of 'doing something' which at best makes no difference, and at worst actually detracts from any serious efforts to confront the source, not the symptoms of the problem

(although as i said, i don't think such a solution can be found within the context of the current social & economic organisation of society)

so yes, the cup isn't just half empty, it's plastic, there's a big nasty crack in it and also someone's spiked the contents with rophonyl and we're all drinking out of it

George Santayana said...

@Fred vest
Your point seems to be that any comparison made of today with the past is redundant. Which makes you an idiot.
Open a history book sometime - you might learn something.

Headhunter said...

"if i wrapped up the point in (biodegradbale) velcro and give you a pair of (biodegradbale)velcro gloves do you think you might be able to hold onto it?"

Errr, no I doubt it...

Anonymous said...

i hope the broca food market doesnt have chairs outside the toilet. Me and my girlfriend were enjoying a coffee one lazy tuesday morning, when we both nearly threw up after a large man came out of the toilet with a smile on his face! he didnt even have the decency to shut the door, the poor waitress had to do it. The food market did look nice yesterday, had some tasty looking carrots outside. thankfully this means I wont have to queue up in M&S at london bridge just to get some bits.

Headhunter said...

Fred - so there's no hope and until someone comes up with a comprehensive solution we're all doomed and may as well continue in our destruction with gay abandon... OK, I getcha.

Anonymous said...

@anon 17:06
I think that was probably Fred Vest - expressing (!) his disgust at the Brockley liberal elite and their fancy coffees.

Anonymous said...

Don't shout too much about "gay abandon" - cos you know who will turn up

fred vest said...

"Fred - so there's no hope and until someone comes up with a comprehensive solution we're all doomed and may as well continue in our destruction with gay abandon... OK, I getcha."

no, as i said above, there's nothing wrong with doing 'warm glow' stuff if it makes you feel better about our general impotence as collective humanity to do anything about the actual problem, all i'm saying is don't mistake it for something it's not

and i notice quite a tendency from people here who seem to think that identifying/talking about a problem and coming up with a solution for it are one and the same things and if don't have the later you can't talk about the former - nice bit of logic there chaps

The Cat Man said...

@Fred

I know you don't want to hear it Fred (and you probably disagree) but you manage to convey what I try to say in a much more coherent manner. I agree with your comments nearly all the time, although with some exceptions (i.e. your conclusion on my apparent 'fascist' viewpoint but I can forgive you for that).

I would like to know more about the person that is Fred Vest, did you really not go to uni? how did you get interested in politics/economics/philosophy? My interest was shaped from my upbringing and keeping my eyes open.

The Cat Man said...

I brought an acorn squah from Broca market, how do I cook it?

nobbly brick said...

Not sure what a 'acorn squah' is CM, but if its anything like a butternut squash you peel it, cube it, and boil it - bit like a potato. And you can use it in an infinite number of ways.

In a curry for example, or as a soup.

Hope you didn't pay more than 50 pence for it

drakefell debaser said...

did you really not go to uni? how did you get interested in politics/economics/philosophy? My interest was shaped from my upbringing and keeping my eyes open

Are you surprised that someone who did not go to Uni has these interests?

Try baking your squash.

The Cat Man said...

I am surprised yes. Its un-usual and bucks the norm.

I welcome it of course, alot of people who go to uni are 'free-riders' doing it purely becuase their middle class background says its the 'thing to do'.

Anonymous said...

Cat Man - champion of the working classes? Yeah right.... And what on earth does a university education prove other than a qualification in a particular field?

Squash makes great soup, cube and cook with ginger and chicken/veg stock. Liquidise and serve.

Anonymous said...

I've only ever baked squash. Cut it in half, take out seeds in centre, chop it into segments and dash some olive oil on it add herbs and bake in oven for 20-30 mins. good accompaniment to main dish, whatever that may be.
Brockley Jim

Monkeyboy said...

God this is REALLY going to wind up Mr Vest.

Tressilliana said...

I suspect you're very young, Catman. Until the last 15 or 20 years, although we had maintenance grants and didn't have to pay for tuition, it wasn't nearly as common to go to university as it is now. Fewer places (that's why the govt could afford to pay for us to go), far fewer people with the paper qualifications to get in, not nearly so much family and social pressure even to finish sixth form, never mind go to university (I am too old to talk about yooni) - quite the contrary in many cases, especially for women. There are plenty of bright and well-informed people over the age of 35 or so who aren't graduates.

drakefell debaser said...

I was hoping your reply was going to be more in tune with your ability to keep your eyes open Catman, I wonder what you see all day.

You do not need to go to university to be considered educated, or find politics, philosophy etc interesting. These interests are not exclusive. Getting a tertiary education is necessary for some and it is easier to get one in the UK for most. As a product of the university education system, you must be it's worst example. You might be interested in politics and philosophy but this interest is redundant with your obscene narrow mindedness.

P.S - Un-usual is incorrect, it's unusual.

Anonymous said...

My goodness, I've never read so many dreadfully-constructed attempts at playground politics in my life! How terribly entertaining.
All the posh-bashing is frightfully dull though (and, methinks, has a slight whiff of the green-eyed monster...). And Erin-bashing because she has ginger hair is just lame in the extreme. Also WELL DONE for presuming all Christians are tee-total bores. Sticking to the acceptable '-isms' shows how far we've come in the last 40 years or so.
Fred Vest's attempt at philosophy and logic are world-class entertainment. Fred- you really should back up your theories with a li'l splash of history (if you knew any). Surely the fact Hitler was vegetarian would entitle you to nosh as many burgers as you like....?
Ooooh, and just before I go: Drakefell Debaser- before correcting other people, maybe you should get your own grammatical house in order? I don't have time to list your many errors, but the phrase "you must be it's worst example" with its gloriously-placed apostrophe is a good place to start.
'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'
Much love to all,
Jx

fred vest said...

"Surely the fact Hitler was vegetarian would entitle you to nosh as many burgers as you like....?"

if only I could use logic in the devastatingly correct, and completely relevant to the topic at hand way that you have done above, not to mention its water tight application and contribution/advancement to the topic being discussed

(ps, if you actually knew your history you'd know hitler wasn't actually a true vegetarian, and just in case you are considering hanging your next axiom of the fact that he only had one ball, i'm afraid i have bad news on that particular topic as well)

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

Unfortunately I'm bored with politics and philosophy.

I'm looking forward to a much more interesting debate on whether one should start with the Ladywell Christmas Market and go on to the Brockley one or vice versa.

I'm tempted with Brockley first as the evening entertainments seem better at Ladywell.

Decisions decisions...

The Cat Man said...

Whats a dullard? Is it a type of bird?

Monkeyboy said...

Christmas does lead to all sorts of moral and logistical dilemmas. Does one drink heavily on an ‘unofficial’ Christmas do (or festive party for those who’s head starts spinning at the thought of Jesus) knowing that the ‘official’ party is the day after and you’ll not be able to drink as much booze because your hungover thereby possible not getting your money’s worth (we had to pay this year, TfL does not cough up)

Also do you accept an evening of Table Football paid for by a contractor? The Evening Standard may get hold of it and spin so that it reads CONTRACTOR TAKES 15 TfL STAFF TO FOOTBALL TOURNAMENT! I’ll declare it, honest.

nobbly brick said...

TW, I'd get over to Ladwell for the festivities in the Ladywell Tavern - it's a good pub and worthy of support.

Anonymous said...

Brockley Christmas Market
Entertainment setlist:

18:00 Catman's Corner - catman to stage a "speakers corner" event. Outside Dukes.

19:00 Close.

The Cat Man said...

18:01 - more likely it'll be death by hanging

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