The pastiche isn't a foreign country


After yesterday's debate about a new house proposed on Breakspears Road, regular poster TJ attended the BrocSoc meeting and has sent us an example of a house built on Drake Road, which is a clearly successful example of pastiche architecture (double height bays and all) and a model which the protestors hope could be followed in this case.

93 comments:

Headhunter said...

So it is possible without contravening regulations and without the whole thing collapsing as was suggested would happen...

Tressillian James said...

my point exactly..and especially worthwhile when it is one of a pair as in Breakspears Road.

BrockleyBiker said...

Cranfield Road is a good example of where new houses can go wrong. There is the ugliest house next to Erica House (the 60's block), all grimey pebble dash and squat proportions. It amazingly manages to look even more incongruous than Erica which is saying something.

Anonymous said...

We want buildings that will enhance the area in the short and long term. Developers should not expect to come into the Conservation area to make a fast buck.

Hugh said...

That's my gaff.

Tressillian James said...

Funny that Hugh - as I know a completely different family who live there?

The Cat Man said...

Those are my dwellings

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

I'm afraid I find it false and consequently horrible.

I just don't like it.

Igniculus said...

It just goes to show that, sad as it is, Lewisham Councillors and Lewisham Council's Planning Department cannot be trusted to look after the Conservation Area. The ham-fisted "incompetence-through-indifference" approach of Lewisham Councillors and Lewisham Planning means the area is always under constant threat from spivs and speculators. How could these plans have ever reached this stage in the first place? A well-run planning department would have thrown this out straight away for not being at all in keeping with the Conservation Area. The Planning Committee and its officers clearly do not understand the idea behind a conservation area: (they think they do and this makes them even more dangerous).

If it were not for the hard work of the Brockley Society, the area would have been ruined long ago. You only have to walk along Avignon Road, Aspinall, St Asaph etc, etc, to see how areas in need of sensitive restoration are being ruined by Council and speculator alike.

When will these public servants, whose salaries we pay, wake up to the fact that they are supposed to be protecting this area and not allowing it to be sacrificed on the altar of a quick in-out profit by developers who will not be around to suffer the consequences of their actions?

The Cat Man said...

'The pastiche isn't a foreign country'

Hmmm....

Anonymous said...

hmmm what catman?

Anonymous said...

I bet hugh is a 12 year old child who is on here for a wind up.....

Headhunter said...

I've said before, the Hugh who posts here now is most definitely not the same Hugh who used to be here when this site started...

Headhunter said...

TM - You may not like it, but surely it's better than something that almost looks like someone made a half *rsed attempt within a cheap budget to shoehorn something into an otherwise unblemished line of Victorian villas?

The Cat Man said...

You should consider contacting the BCAG. Despite being nothing to do with Brockley Cross, I'm sure they will be heavily involved in support your case.

They are of course, the 'wider brokley ward action group'.

lb said...

By the way, that outburst of why-oh-why-ism at 13.05 was most entertaining.

Hugh said...

Headhunter said...
I've said before, the Hugh who posts here now is most definitely not the same Hugh who used to be here when this site started...

11 November 2008 14:29

The proof being...

The building expert said...

Being the unbiased building 'expert' that I am, this building is 'truth' and consequently sex.

I just do lurve it.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

HH

You totally miss my argument. The original building was destroyed by bombing - a timely piece of history given today's date.

We are not Victorians and whilst we should conserve the buildingds remaining, we should not blindly reproduce then in any gaps that have been left for whatever reason.

What is proposed is a modern interpretation of a Victorian house and records the evolution of the conservation area and says:
"Here stood a Victorian House destroyed by war and replaced by something similar but different, refelcting the era in which it was constructed."

Anonymous said...

I heard that the original Hugh died about 6 months ago while attempted a sex act on himself. Allegedly they found him wearing a giant nappy with a photo of his old headmaster and a school tie around his neck....

Tressillian James said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

bloody shame....

Headhunter said...

TM - All I'm saying is that I would prefer either a pastiche/accurate copy of what used to be there or a complete departure from that. Not something that looks like someone on a budget had a go at a Victorian home but ended up with a dodgy Barratt style Edwardian building

Headhunter said...

Hugh - I have no proof that you are not the original Hugh it's just a hunch. The original Hugh posted fairly lengthy, well punctuated, lucid comments and we shared an interest in cycling (see the "cycling lane"), however you appear to make occasional irrelevant comments or short snipes mostly about house prices.

Not trying to be rude, just an observation...

If you're the real Hugh, tell me about your bike and why you chose it, your last ride and something about the Dulwich Paragon cycle club

Anonymous said...

It's a Grifter.
Because it's got blue, yellow and red gears.
To the shops. (did a couple of wheelies on my way back)
They wear a lot of tight clothing.

Gutted said...

Nooo, not Hugh, why oh why? They say the good die young (ok he was 55 but still that's like a teenager these days, look at Madonna.)

Goodnight sweet prince.

lb said...

As far as I can remember (and I started reading this thing a long time before I started posting) "Hugh" pretty much always commented on house prices, so no real concerns there. Perhaps his bike got nicked?

Difficult to tell who's who anyway, what with all these absurd monikers like "LB", "anonymous", and "Cllr Dean Walton"

The Cat Man said...

;-)

fred vest said...

i always make a point of emailing nick my full name and address, mothers maiden name and grid coordinates on every post i make lest i be accused of this disease of anonomous posting by some of the more hysterical sorts on here (the sort who complain when you don't post under an actual name but then also complain when you do if they don't like your chosen moniker)

knock yourself out on this though house price obsessives (average monthly house prices per london borough)

http://tinyurl.com/6saw43

Headhunter said...

Yeah but just look at posts by Hugh from late 07 and early 08 and then the ones posted in the past 6 months. The writing style is completely different. It's gotta be a different person.

fred vest said...

he's clearly murdered the previous hugh and assumed his online profile in name if not in nature

i'm sure nick could do a quick sniff of the IP addresses before we approach crimewatch

Tressillian James said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lb said...

Hugh's posts of the 2007 era mostly seem to centre on "detached 6-bedders", much like the Hugh du jour.

Perhaps he's employed a subordinate to post for him.

Tressillian James said...

Fred - are you really complaining that people took offence to you using the name of a serial killer that commited terrible crimes on innocent girls and women? Or indeed found abuse toward women funny in your wifebater comment. We realise that you intend to be offensive with your choice of name - but don't act idignant when people are actually offended.

Headhunter said...

He posted a lot more back in 07 though, longer comments about Brockers, the conservation area, cycling etc with punctuation etc. Hugh from 6 months ago onwards generally posts little 1 liners sniping at others' comments or house prices and that's pretty much it.

Gone are the conversations we were having about cycling and he never suggests meeting for rides anymore as he used to.

A while back he discussed moving house to Ealing or somewhere out west. My theory is that he did that and hasn't checked back in here since, but someone else has assumed his name

fred vest said...

it's not his name though is it TJ

the etymology of the name goes back to the time when nick advertised some pub competition sponsored by stella artois, at that point i assumed the name of wife beater in protest, this led to numerous complaints from people thinking i was an actual wife beater and a discussion of what the phrase wife beater is commonly associated with - the two main things being stella and those vests that you see on streetcar named desire

i then fused these things in a process hegel himself would have been proud of to arrive at the name you see at the moment

an added (albeit belated)twist of course being that fred west pronounced by our germanic cousins would of course result in the W being pronounced V to give you the fred vest you see before you - although this unfortunate coincidence was not exactly an intentional i see no reason to change it just because some people actually think because i chose that name i support the brutal killing of innocent (or indeed guilty) women & children

ps do you think headhunter actually hunts heads or the cat man is actually some kind of hybrid cat/man creature?

Tressilliana said...

'the cat man is actually some kind of hybrid cat/man creature'

Aha! A great light dawns...

The Cat Man said...

There are two 'The Cat Man's' on here, the genuine one is this one - with blue link to my profile.

I'm off to NY tomorrow. Having eaten far too much in Kentucky - every day for a week - I need some 'rough living' in the Big Apple. Gym 2x a day for the rest of the week should suffice.

Headhunter said...

I do hunt heads, inasmuch as I recruit investment bankers/work in a headhunting firm as opposed to living in the Amazon removing the heads of hapless explorers...

Anonymous said...

I didn't realise until now that the reason Stella Artois is called Wife Beater is the link with Streetcar Named Desire (i.e. Stanley's wife's name is Stella.) Great.

(i thought it was just because iust made you moody.)

The Cat Man said...

Interestingly enough,

house prices in lewisham are still increasing in value:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/html/az.stm?t

last quarter - terraced house up 1.1%. Not bad eh?

Bea said...

HH – I’m with you on the Hugh conundrum. I think we have a Hugh v1 and a Hugh v2 – for a start the first Hugh was a lot wittier. The current one is pretty predictable.

However, I also think Fred Vest and Nobbly Brick are the same person - could be wrong of course - but their style is similar and they both tend make provocative statements along similar lines

max said...

Did they sell one?

jon s said...

Its not as if enough houses were sold in Lewisham to make it a true comparison.

(As you should know andy, not a statistically significant sample, the margin of error would be about 10%.)

The Cat Man said...

200 houses seem a fairly 'ok' sample for a quarter. Obviously the more the better.

On a larger scale, prices over the last year are still up 0.6% for a terraced house.

I have no idea what confidence levels are attached to this survey but I still think it is significant. Alot of other london regions are seeing decreases circa 10% or more, either way we look at it, Lewisham is doing much better than average.

Does anyone know what is happening to Dandelion blue?

drakefell debaser said...

Yawn, the Kentucky diet must have affected the hybrids ability to reason. Odd that. Be careful roughing it in NY though, there are lots of immigrants there.

nobbly brick said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
nobbly brick said...

I am not Fred Vest.

I do not always write provocative posts (saw a grammatical mistake, so revised it.

It was me who alerted BN (if he needed to be alerted) to the meeting last night

Tressillian James would have seen me, indeed I suspect I saw him.

If I'd have talked to him, or he to me, we would have both been disappointed.

I also walked past the new bookmakers on my way to the meeting and wondered why the front lobby looks like a funeral parlour (no coffins though)

all the best bea

;)


One more thing, I suspect I know who Fred Vest is, but I'm not bothered.

Bea said...

Apologies Nobbly Brick! My mistake ...

nobbly brick said...

no problem

Incidentally, there's another 'window' meeting tomorrow night:


email: "You may be already be aware that Broc Soc meet THIS Wednesday the 12th. Details should be in their newsletter (I just dropped some off along Vicar's on Sunday)

My colleague Cllr Darren Johnson will be there to contribute re Brockley PFI, uPVC windows and Vicar's Hill in particular."

have't checked the details though

nobbly brick said...

its the AGM:

Next AGM: Wednesday 12th November, 8.00, Baptist Church Hall, Upper Brockley Rd (entrance in Vulcan Terrace)

Monkeyboy said...

Where's Brockley Kate? is she bored of us boys constantly bickering and trying to score points of each other?

Headhunter said...

The number of flats and terraced houses seem to offer a fairly large sample of 2-300 but very few detached and semis were sold and they are registering a drop of about 30% in price! I doubt that could be considered representative.

fred vest said...

"Apologies Nobbly Brick! My mistake ..."

hey where's my apology

Myra Hindley said...

Make sure apologies are right at the TOP of the agenda...

Ted Bundy said...

No one apologies to serial killers...

fred vest said...

there's room at the top of the agenda now that the horrors of speedicargate are but a distant memory

i hope you all observed a two minute silence today for those who fell for that honourable cause

Anonymous said...

...ah... angry, sarcastic, cynical, misanthropic Fred is back. Greetings old friend....

fred vest said...

not sure how you read angry or misanthropic into anything i've written today

sarcastic and cynical of course

Anonymous said...

actually you're right. I'll take that back.

fred vest said...

thanks

i didn't want my good name tarnished afterall

Monkeyboy said...

..an uneasy peace settles over Brockley central. The snipes and angry bluster have subsided and all that that can be heard is the warm greetings and sounds of back slapping as the marketing executives and angry marxists embrace on the bombed out ruins of the deli...

God it's like that football match in no mans land.

Anonymous said...

Until somebody realised the ball wasn't vegan and the toffs lodged a complaint to their ombudsman

Monkeyboy said...

I feel some war poetry coming on.

Tressillian James said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tressillian James said...

Is Fred talking to himself with an anon moniker?

Fred - sorry if I misunderstood your name (not sure that I did)

Nobbly - hmm you were at the meeting? I see you are also part of the PFI Leaseholder's group. And you know who Fred is - this is now getting interesting - being spotted at meetings by other BCers and not knowing it.

The Cat Man said...

Just to make you all jealous, I have been upgraded to a rather pleasent one bed apartment overlooking times square.

Who said companies don't treat their employees well :o)

I will be sending a postcard to my cats in due course.

fred vest said...

"Is Fred talking to himself with an anon moniker?"

poor show resorting to the 'anyone who doesn't take my side in an argument is just the anonymous moniker of my adversary retort

The Cat Man said...

I'm very upset with you Fred Vest, until you came along I was the personification of evil in the brockley-ite world.

I feel completely rejected.

fred vest said...

don't get me wrong, your poorly concealed racism under a shaky cover of paternalistic concern for the indigenous working class is far more evil than anything i've ever offered on here

not that i think you are in any way capable of actual evil through translating your hamfisted poorly thought through racial theories into any kind of meaningful action, as fortunately your low level of intelligence is guaranteed to scupper such attempts before you even get out of neutral

(ps just because you and I may share an opposition to official state multiculturalism does not mean we share the reasons for that opposition - my opposition to it is because i believe it is in itself racist and leads to even greater divisions and cleavages in society along racial/cultural lines which leads to the supposed cure for these things exasberating the root problems that it's supposed to be confronting - you on the other hand oppose it because of crude poorly concealed racism and repulsion/fear/suspicion of any culture other than your own (mongrel) one

nobbly brick said...

TJ:

I am not a member of the PFI Leaseholder's group

I was at the meeting, which was enjoyable. The bloke with the moustache, amongst others, laid in to that chap from planning with gusto, perhaps a little bit too much gusto. But it does identify planning as being at the heart of the destruction of Lewisham.

This thing about the house on Breakspears is that it's just a microcosm of 'the bigger picture'. Unelected council workers thinking they have more power than they should have and wielding that power unaccountably.

Sorry for any provocation.

lb said...

"Unelected council workers thinking they have more power than they should have"

What, like a planning officer having, um, the power to approve a planning application? Shocking.

"and wielding that power unaccountably"

Yes, there's no accountability whatsoever in the, er, standard consultation process for planning applications.

Look, I don't know what things are like on Planet Paranoia, but here in Lewisham any problems with local government usually trace back to a) money, or lack thereof, and b) what we laughably like to call 'politics'. The council's utter powerlessness in the face of these seems far more self-evident than any power-crazed hubristic overreaching by its officers.

Personally, I'd love to see more elected local officials, like in the US. Unofortunately, this being Britain, it's quite likely no-one would bother voting. Local elections already have a shocking turnout.

nobbly brick said...

lb, you weren't at that meeting the other night were you?

Tamsin said...

The planning officers power is a bit unaccountable, and also unpredicatably predictable. I gather it is a total lottery whose desk any application lands one but there is one officer who is definitely anti-pastiche and pro-modern and will approve anything even in a conservation area while others are more traditional.
The Conservation Areas Panel group looks at applications in an early stage and if their comments are taken on board by the officers in their reporting to the Planning Sub-committee it gives a measure of consistency.
In the end, though, the panel and the officers can only advise. It is the elected councillors on the Planning Sub-committee who decide. In a totally unpredictable and apparently unaccountable fashion - I think it is the case that they don't look at stuff in their own wards.

Hugh said...

Headhunter, wait in line, lad.

Headhunter said...

Eh? Wait in line for what?

Headhunter said...

Tamsin - that certainly seems about right. The fact that this Breakspears buidling was originally approved does not sit well. Another development at the end of Manor Ave on a similar scale and with a similar "not quite right" look to it was refused, yet this one went through. There doesn't seem much consistency.

State the obvious said...

It may be pertinent at this point to observe that we get the concillors we deserve..........or elect even.

lb said...

Nobbly, sadly, no. A combination of South Eastern Trains and a few loose ends at the day job put paid to that. I will be following the process as much as possible in future, however.

Tamsin: I'm not sure exactly what system Lewisham operates, but many larger planning departments use area teams, so the group of officers dealing with a certain area will certainly have an on-the-ground familiarity with that area. On the other hand, I think it's entirely appropriate if case allocation within that framework is a "lottery", seeing as one doesn't want to start creating some kind of local patronage system - I'll take Catford Town Hall over Tammany Hall any time.

Your other point, regarding the planning committee, surely reinforces my point that complicated or sensitive decisions (i.e. the kind that always "go to Committee", as a planner I once knew used to put it) are always far more at the mercy of local politics than they are affected by the actions of unelected staff. I always suspect anyone who thinks otherwise has been reading too many Littlejohnesque newspaper stories about local authorities.

lb said...

I find it slightly depressing that Google Ads chooses to accompany the comments here with advertisments for "rubbish clearance", Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and a school for people with Asperger's Syndrome.

Headhunter said...

I'm getting ads for conference centres, loft extensions and planning application problem solicitors

Anonymous said...

plumbing and loft conversions here. maybe they are directed at you LB? By the way do you live in the Conservation area, LB,and do you have any council type job, you seem to know alot about both

lb said...

I do live in the conservation area. To answer your second question, I know a fair bit about these things because some of my closest relations are planners (public sector) and architects, and you tend to pick up on a few things.

If I worked for Lewisham, I probably would need CBT, frankly.

fabhat said...

lb - cbt is motorbike training...

lb said...

Well, I might end up needing that as well.

Anonymous said...

It also stands for "Cock and Ball Torture", standard fare amongst BDSM houses.

lb said...

It occurs to me that some people coming to Brockley Central as the result of a Google search may be sorely disappointed.

fabhat said...

The adverts haven't changed to reflect the wide range of subjects tho - disappointing...

Brockley Nick said...

Funny you should say that LB - I've noticed some very unusual searches which have led people to Brockley Central. "Call girls in Lewisham" was a recent one. They didn't stay long.

Finbar Saunders said...

Lewisham has a redlight district?

Where where?

Headhunter said...

Certainly not in the conservation area. The Broc Soc would not tolerate it. Probably along Cat Man's street...

Tressillian James said...

lol - as long as they are nice English girls...

Yoda said...

Very funny was this thread.

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