New Cross Gate masterplan update

We're a bit late with this, but the website detailing Sainsbury's proposals to develop the New Cross Gate retail park is now fully operational - click here.

We all seem to agree that the site needs a major overhaul, it's just a question of the fine detail. The website is all fairly aspirational stuff and standard fare for early-stage public consultation. We particularly like the idea of creating a proper streetscape but, when they list some of the possible occupants...

  • Caf├ęs
  • Restaurants
  • Nursery or community facility
  • Book shop
  • Bike shop
  • Music store
  • Clothing shops
  • Banks
  • Florists

... It's worth remembering that the list could equally read: funeral parlours, fried chicken shops, vacant units...

109 comments:

JPM said...

I think they're trying to squeeze the orange dry...

I noted that that exit from Sainsbury's which allows the driver to take a short-cut through Jerningham will go completely.

This is only happening so that the devloper can build more properties over the current road, leaving just 'one' for access and egress.

Any shoppers headed back to Brockley would be forced to turn left into the nightmare traffic of New Cross. VOTE NO.

nobbly brick said...

Ditto my post the other day

Hugh said...

Bring on the ELL. I'll be exiting Brox then.

Headhunter said...

Hugh, you've been talking about exitting Brockley since Brockley Central 1st started! When's it actually gonna happen? What's holding you here?

Hugh said...

Sorry, I got busy conquering the City. Bigger fish to fry than small-time real estate plays.

Anonymous said...

There's much dignity in going quietly.

State the obvious said...

It amazes me that some people's opposition to a major regeneration scheme to really improve an area appears to be based soley on the loss of their favourite little rat run.......

Good to see the community spirt alive and well!

Hugh said...

Dignity is what you fall back on when your mates out-earn you.

State the obvious? said...

Do you mean earn more than you?

or are you referring to some type of money making outdoor activity?

Kinglard said...

Saw the plans in store at the weekend and thought much the same about 'possible' uses, particularly in the current economic climate. Also not sure about the whole High Street thing - crowded with traffic and residents? Would the buses now only stop on the main road so shopping has to be lugged along the high street? And which garage will I have to use? I agree that the station needs improving (and glad to see the old building kept) but can't say I'm really enthused by the whole thing....

Tamsin said...

A short cut up Jerningham by those who know the way is fine - opening up the junction so everyone can turn right in any configuration, i.e. right out of Jerningham and right into Jerningham will just massively increase rat-running by non-locals.

As I said in an earlier post, if you are in the car anyway a slightly longer journey is no big deal - if you don't want to turn left and along the main road to Lewisham Way go right and up Pepys.

Personal interest to declare as I live on Jerningham (and this scheme combined with what is happening by the White Hart will mean that coming from town we cannot turn into the area to get home by any route between Pomeroy and the Marquess of Granby) but recall that there are two schools there. Through traffic should be discouraged.

Tamsin said...

Exhibiton also open tonight - Electric Empire near the White Hart and tomorrow from 2 to 8 in the Telegraph Hill Centre. With more info than they could have in Sainsbury's - a three D model and photos.

Transpontine said...

Saw the exhibition too, strangely for someone in favour of reducing traffic I am actually concerned at the loss of the petrol station, there is not another one on that side of the A2 until the Sun and Sands roundabout beyond Blackheath. I think it's getting to a stage that rather than discouraging car use the shortage of petrol stations is making people make longer journeys just to fill up.

Transpontine said...

Btw (re JPM's comment) I was told by somebody at the exhibition that it is Lewisham who want the one road entrance/exit (in order to create sense of a street), Sainsburys prefer to keep current two roads.

Anonymous said...

It's really not fair constantly ragging on the fried chickens. Nothing wrong with a bit of KFC once in a while, love their "fully loaded" meal...

David said...

Saw the exhibition and while there's lots of the "devil will be in the detail" reservations it does seem to me that this could possibly be a "good thing".

Happy to see the existing station kept and a new and better access proposed but they could have done a lot more re the "interchange" thing - at the moment it seems to be just a slighly longer lay-by for buses heading east rather than anything more useful or catering for buses heading west as well.

Wonder what the "landmark" building will actually proposed as - at the moment it's supposed to be 19 stories of residential tower. Bigger than the surrounds is fine but I'm not sure that 6 times bigger is wonderful.

The Sainsbury's reps also mentioned that not all of the new "high street" would be devoted to shops. It may be that this is just the front half and then it becomes residential/community stuff - this to me seems to miss the point of creating a (short) new high street.

One thing I did wonder at though was the clever bod who decided to build 400 new units and then not provide any additional parking. That could be fun.

David

PS: I do hope that the high street ends up being taken up the kind of shops they've mentioned and not more chicken etc shops. Never know you luck in a big city right ... ?

nobbly brick said...

it's the 'modern thing' not to provide parking places for residents - to encourage the 'modal shift' to public transport - have they touted New Cross Gate as a 'transport hub' yet?

'Landmark' need not denote that a building will have an acceptable architectural quality either - it just means it'll be big - it's a better word than big...

An if it has passed you by we are now witnessing the death of the high street as we know it - and it's not being replaced by the 'Mall' either, so why do developers still propose and build them?

Anonymous said...

Public transport for me seems a particularly victorian way of getting around. It's conformist, bland and doesn't cater for detail.

nobbly brick said...

It's also crowded, expensive and unpleasant - if it were not these things more people would use it and perhaps enjoy it. Until then it's pie in the sky.

Anonymous said...

Indeed, I got off the train last night at Brockley (you'd never guess) and it felt like I was using 100 year old transport technology in the slumlands of India

fred vest said...

"Public transport for me seems a particularly victorian way of getting around. It's conformist, bland and doesn't cater for detail"

what utter nonsense

and also spectacularly indicative of the breed of new individualism that is such a blight and a burden on society today

Anonymous said...

Well of course, look at this site, when there's a thread about property prices, delis or opportunity to show off and the comments go off the scale, but something to help the community or not related to self interest just watch the tumbleweed roll across the thread, save for the odd stupid comment typically from Hugh.

State the obvious said...

What's wrong with Victorian? Britain was at its greatest then!

That's if you like being ankle deep in manure, collecting your own urine and having Rickets.

Bet there weren't many people covered in horse s**t on last night's train......

Anonymous said...

typical response from the mung bean eaters

fabhat said...

I think public transport can be annoying, slow, expensive and crowded but I'd rather use it and get to London Bridge in 10 minutes, rather than spend 30 minutes in a traffic jam getting stressed, pay £8 and then drive around for ages looking for a parking spot.

Monkeyboy said...

OK...so sitting in your Vauxhall Vectra listening to HeartFM while chomping on your Ginsters pasty (late for that air conditioning sales conference) is some kind of rebellion?

Get real, sitting on Eurostar and zooming to the centre of Paris is Public Transport and rather nice - if a bit pricey.

Trains need to be made to work, just needs some imagination and investment LONG term.

By the way I own a car and wouldn't want to be without it, but do you think it's practical that we ALL get into town in them??

(think it was me who started the Mung Bean thing...sorry)

Fred, where have you bean.....sorry been?

max said...

Ok, it gets you from A to B quickly and economically when compared to driving around but how does that cater for details?

What about making a statement of individuality out of one's choice of transport?
Debate to follow on twitter please.

fred vest said...

"I think public transport can be annoying, slow, expensive and crowded but I'd rather use it and get to London Bridge in 10 minutes, rather than spend 30 minutes in a traffic jam getting stressed, pay £8 and then drive around for ages looking for a parking spot."

your example of the alternative seems to suggest that public transport is anything but annoying, slow or expensive!

i agree it could, and should, be a lot better in certain areas but for folk in london to moan about the overall public transport network (in relation to other forms of travel) seems completely hatstand, fair enough if you live out in the sticks but in the city it's the only way to go, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

my point about rampant individualism seems to have went over the head off those commenting on it - the point is that a selfish individualism leads people to write off the notion of public/community transport just because it doesn't provide chaffuer driven cars driving in special fast lanes direct to your destination, sure there's lots of situations where cars are required and there is no substitute, but there is also just a huge streak of snobbish lazy impatience amongst folk who turn their nose up at public transport (again i'm referring to folk in large cities), it's just another symptom of the me me me atomised society

max said...

Let's not forget the persuasive power of Jeremy Clarkson, the high priest of self validation through ownership.
He's on prime time television and has a column on the Sun, it can't be conformist to repeat his opinions like a parrot would.

fred vest said...

i don't have a clue what you're talking about max

max said...

Fred, I was also commenting on the proposition that it's conformist to use public transports. I argued that the anonymous commenter can't seriously tell anyone that they're conformists when putting forward the opinions of Jeremy Clarkson even using words that JC would have used as there's nothing more conformist than repeating what the best promoted mainstream personality says.

nobbly brick said...

I'm an irregular commuter, but my work at this time of year means that I have to do a certain amount of to-ing and fro-ing between Ladywell and Charing Cross.

I hate it

I tend to leave after 9 in the morning which makes that journey tolerable, but my return journey - anytime between 18:00 and 23:00 - always crushes me with the mixture of irritation and antagonism. After a couple of days I find myself amongst the door-huggers on the platform in the scrabble to get a seat.

I can see the interminable tide of commuter-ability sweeping over me and I can only think of it as being enveloped by some kind of unpleasant effluent.

I can afford to stand outside of this for most of the year, but that doesn't make any the more pleasant when i have to do it...

Unfortunately there is little alternative (done the bike thing - too old for that now), and don't mention buses.

OK, that's it

fabhat said...

Fred - I'm not sure what you took as a cry of rampant individualism and hatred of public transport in my response? I baulked at paying £10 for a zone 1-4 travelcard last week, before 9.30 (expensive) I was annoyed when a signal failure on the jubilee line made me half an hour late for a tightly scheduled meeting(annoying AND slow) and I annoyed lots of other people when I had to squeeze onto a full train with 3 large work bags (crowded) even so - as I said, I still PREFER travelling by public transport than driving everywhere...I think that the London transport system is generally a good thing and I think the infrastructure needs more money and more support to make it even better.

JPM said...

Tamsin, I am with you on those concerns. But I do not want to lose that important cut-through, which is not a 'rat-run'.

I think Transposible reason should try to confirm from the council if it asked for the loss of a road... I doubt it. Strange that the developer looks set to benefit from the loss of a road in favour of shops, the value of which we are yet to see.

What is the real reason for the loss of a right, left turn on exit? Could it be that TfL is looking to introduce another cashcow yellow junction box? Two roads, please.

(No sarcs or snipers please. Always prefer to meet that sort face to face, or ignore them.)

Anonymous said...

Surely you could just turn right and take the first left - i.e. the road you have to take to get down to the place in the first place. That will still be there.

Anonymous said...

But Tamsin

Anonymous said...

Sorry hit enter too quickly. But Tamsin you say in one breath that traffic in Jerningham Road shouldn't be encouraged, then complain that you won't be able to drive easily when "coming from town"! You can't have it both ways.

fred vest said...

"Fred - I'm not sure what you took as a cry of rampant individualism and hatred of public transport in my response?"

i took none of your response as that! - I was referring to the quote below all the time just tagged it on at the end of something in response to what you said, apologies for confusion

"Public transport for me seems a particularly victorian way of getting around. It's conformist, bland and doesn't cater for detail"

fabhat said...

Fred - ah yes - the Victorian comment - yes I agree with you there...

Tamsin said...

Not complaining - just commenting. As far as we are concerned not turning up Pomeroy Street is a fine price to pay for not having traffic coming up Jerningham Road (especially when that then turns into buses coming up Jerningham Road - whoops, the house has just shaken as a bus goes down it, even though I am in a room at the back). It is also fine by me to have to "hit the New Cross traffic" if I take the car to Sainsbury's or else double back and go up Pepys (if one will still be able to, not being a bus, - need to check out that redesigned road layout).
The way it is at present is fine by me, but I would rather go to more traffic restrictions than fewer.

The Cat Man said...

aw shucks, Fred, I've missed you. :o)

Tamsin said...

Sorry - second line garbage "not being able to turn up after Pomeroy Street" is what I meant to say.

Tamsin said...

JPM - it's not a rat-run yet because only locals use it. Those shopping in Sainsbury's or those who know that if you turn into Sainsbury's (duh!) you can then do a quick double back and go up Jerningham.

If the restrictions on the junction go in a short while one will get rat-runners - avoiding the snarl-up around the Marquess of Granby.

lb said...

Yes, yes, but will Sainsbury's be putting the Oxo cubes somewhere I can actually happen?

lb said...

er, add "to find them"

Tamsin said...

Oh, I rather like you "happening" in the middle of Sainsbury's next to the oxo cubes. A sort of manifestation - and you then teleport to the checkout to pay for them...

lb said...

Victorian transport solutions, New Cross. If only. (Bit worried by the big sign saying "Cameron" in the background, though).

Actually, happening upon the stock cubes is the only way I was able to find them.

Monkeyboy said...

Oxo cubes? bit common don't you think? I make my own stock... ;-)

lb said...

I'm sure that was just a jus d'esprit.

Ho ho.

Danja said...

It is also fine by me to have to "hit the New Cross traffic" if I take the car to Sainsbury's or else double back and go up Pepys (if one will still be able to, not being a bus, - need to check out that redesigned road layout).

Oh OK. I was kidding before about the buses running both ways up Jerningham - but now I'm off to lobby the Council to do just that.

Wild Bill said...

The oxo cubes are in the middle isle of the frozen foods for anyone who can't find them. Fook knows why.

We use the value ones, even for Christmas dinner. 15p I think. Bargain.

The Cat Man said...

I hate to imagine the ingredients going into a 15p stock cube.....

Anonymous said...

Who cares?? If it tastes good, eat it.

JPM said...

Okay Tamsin, we'll place a restriction on every other licence paying motorist to avoid Jerninghma Road becaue (duh!) Tamsin lives on it. She bought the house (duh!) before the road existed and deserves to have it not used by any other car but hers (and her neighbours presumably) Now (duh!) the road will be kept, at the cost of other motorists, soley (duh!)so Tamsin can turn into it - after she used all those other roads that (duh!) other people live on.

Anonymous said...

Another non confrontational post from JPM

drakefell debaser said...

(No sarcs or snipers please. Always prefer to meet that sort face to face, or ignore them.)

Er, hypocrite (duh!)

Tamsin said...

OK - sorry - the (duh) was about the totally counter-intuitive action of turning left into the Sainsbury's petrol station in order to turn right up Jerningham Road.
The present system is fine - locals (and that includes everyone using this Sainsbury's as their local supermarket from Brockley and elsewhere) and those in the know can get through. Opening the junction totally will, as I said, encourage rat-running by non-locals and bring the communter traffic currently on the A20/A2 or on Drakefell/Gellatly/Lausanne which has been a designated "district distributor" for over 30 years along Vesta (with a 50 place nursery just adjacent) and Jerningham (residential and with schools top and bottom). Regardless of the fact I live there a change that makes this likely should in principle be avoided.
Danja - currently the grief (and benefit) arising from the 343 bus is split between the Pepys and Jerningham - you have it grinding up the road, we have it speeding down. Let's, in fairness to all, keep that split.
(What has been totally unfair is the rewriting of the orignal bargain - the No. 84 was only ever going to be a single decker and it was based in New Cross Garage - now, Stagecoach having taken the contract - it is a massive Titan (or whatever) and the stand with the drivers keeping their engines running etc. is at the foot of Jerningham Road. But that's a battle long lost.)

Brockley Kate said...

I nearly bought a flat on Jerningham Road - glad I didn't now!

Re: stock cubes, they are mostly salt I believe.

Tamsin said...

Well, Kate, you missed out - by the current scheme the traffic will be less. (Although if the flat is at the foot of the road it might be in the rain-shadow of the "landmark" building!) It is only if Brockley-ites get it changed to ease their car journey back with their shopping or Danja succeeds in getting the "up" buses moved from his door-step to mine that the situation will be worse.

Brockley Kate said...

Your tales of buses making the house shake are more than enough to put me off, Tamsin, even without things getting worse!

Makes me think almost fondly of the chap who likes to drive down my road at 11pm with the car's stereo bass blaring so loud that it rattles the windows ...

Monkeyboy said...

Food digression....

Make your own chicken stock, it'll change your life. When I roast a chicken I sake the carcass and bones. When you have two or three chuck them in a pan, cover with water. rouughly chop an onion (skin on) a carrot, some cellery. Salt, pepper, bayleaf, tyme, sage. Simmer (lowest heat possible) for several hours while your watching sport on the telly. Skim off the gungy stuff.

Freeze the stock in small pots or old youghurt cartons. Your gravy/soups will be the better for it.

OK, back to delaying the Thameslink development.

MB said...

(... freeze the chicken carcasses until your ready for the stock making...)

Brockley Kate said...

Hmmm, maybe BC should launch our own YouTube channel:

3pm: Cooking with Monkeyboy

4pm: Local authority economic development frameworks masterclass

5pm: Pimp My Ride: Headhunter shows you how to smarten up your bicycle.

What does everyone think???

The Cat Man said...

6pm: The life & times of Fred Vest

7pm: Tree Wars

8pm: Brockley Nicks Window Performance Nightly - LIVE

Tamsin said...

You get three meals out of a roast chicken even before you get as far as making the stock - roast, then totally dismember sorting what you pull off into nice bits, grukky bits and the bones and skin (not forgetting the very nice bits tucked in either side of the backbone). Nice bits into sandwiches and/or a sort of stew, with red-peppers, onion etc. to have with rice, grukky bits minced (with the skin if you want more flavour and chloesterol) and made into rissoles - then the carcass to stock (I inadvertently left mine boiling for four + hours last time, thank heavens I had a tight fitting saucepan lid, but it practically bounced!)

MB said...

Isn't food great?

Apparently we're getting a bulletin later today. It's Boris's 'Operational Cost Review' or job cuts to the rest of us.

Much as I dislike the man, TfL/LU is a bit flabby and could do with a sort out. Not me of course I'm FAR too busy.

The Cat Man said...

We can tell.

Anonymous said...

9:00-9:01 - Delicious dishes based on vegetarian produce including mung beans

Headhunter said...

My commuter bike is looking a bit shabby at the moment with the nasty weather we're having, but my "good" bike is sparkly and shiny...

Anonymous said...

Same, my commuter car needs a wash (hope the new Sainsburys retains the car wash) but my other 4x4 is looking pretty sweet.

Headhunter said...

4x4... Boo, hisss, you should be ashamed of yourself...

M said...

All these 4x4 and mung bean gags are a bit
Clarkson-lite aren't they? At least get an original shtick.

drakefell debaser said...

some more show ideas:

Chicken Bone Surrender
Broken Pavements – Soap opera
I’m a mung bean get me out of here
Come Dogging, strictly on Grass
Brockley Fox Kitchen Nightmares
Match of the day – highlights of days topics

JPM said...

No, Drakefell debaser, I'm always prepared to meet face-to-face any person I insult. The reason why my letterbox sometimes clatters with anonymous lettes and insults. (Had some for a year now. But only from faceless weaklings.)

Tamsin said...

But can you acknowledge that you mis-interpreted my stance? I am NOT complaining that I won't be able to turn right into Jerningham or cut across from Sainsburys the way I do now - I reckon it is a fair price to pay for not increasing the current levels of traffic up Jerningham when it seems that keeping the status quo is not an option.
And further that, although I was honest enough to declare my interest, there are other reasons to avoid the total opening up of that junction.

jon s said...

Pax people, leave your egos on the bar.

Anonymous said...

machismo and pretension

M said...

Are those the names of your cats?

JPM said...

Phew! Just got back from the school run, then got caught out making hot chocolate rolls.

What is with this 'mung bean' nonsense and 'pax' stuff? Do give it a rest, please.

Tamsin, I can't say I'm with you or against. The only thing I do know is it is nightmare enough (at certain times) driving past the Goldsmith's corridor towards New Cross. (Clearly a junction box designed to catch drivers out. Better to take the right lane and once across come into the left, this then traps the driver behind you in the box.)I do not want to be forced anywwhere in the direction of heavy traffic. Sorry. VOTE 'NO' TO SAINSBURY'S LANDGRAB.

The other thing you should be aware of is that developers and their representatives study these sites to hear opinion (delighfully varied)and undermine strategy (if any), always fearful that some lone voice in the online community might 'unite' people. No fear.

The Cat Man said...

Whats a hot chocolate roll?

Funnily enough, Marks & Spencer do a 'Mung Bean' Curry!!!

Brockley Kate said...

JPM, I never understand your assertions that anyone who wants to disagree with you can pay you a visit. Are you some kind of local celebrity? Am I hideously ill-informed, given that I don't have a clue who you are or where you live?

JPM said...

Kate, I feel totally devestated that you only want to visit celibrities.

JPM said...

Of course that should read 'celebs'.

Tamsin said...

Too late, they've already grabbed the land - at the very top of the market, poor things - so we are now into damage limitation.

Anonymous said...

He's that movie actor... Also saw him on Channel 4 News some time back causing trouble for the banks.

Headhunter said...

When I went to Jam Circus with Bea, Tressillian James, and Patrick1971, Richard who runs JC called me over to and after introducing himself told me in a hushed tone after chucking a glance over his shoulder that he knew the who you were JPM but it was indeed as if he was talking about a celeb

JPM said...

Oops... but it wasn't me, it was a body double.

Monkeyboy said...

Hot of the press, this is the new station they are proposing for SE4.

Brockley Green, Looks great if a little small.

Steve Flint, you're a genius.

max said...

Awesome!

The Cat Man said...

But does it have a disability slope?

max said...

Of course not, in the sixties people were much more resilient. Stiff upper lip, the spirit of the blitz and all that. To enter the station wheelchair users would have got off their chairs and walked just like anybody else. This is still the case in many tube stations actually.
Of course we're all much more feeble now and some people complain that they can't make the stairs. Sign of the times.

Anonymous said...

£5.60 for a zone 1,2 (off peak) travelcard, from Brockley, first time I had to use the train in ages. You make sure you start early and pack a lot of journeys in to make it seem like good value.

Anonymous said...

Andy, is that station your work? Everyone exiting it appears to be white.

Brockley Kate said...

"Kate, I feel totally devestated that you only want to visit celibrities."


No, JPM, I just want to know how exactly I can go about taking it up with you in person, as you yourself appear to favour.

Could you possibly do the less-well-informed of us a favour and post your address up here?

Brockley Kate said...

PS. Monkeyboy - I KNEW you were the toy-railway type!!!

JPM said...

@Brockley Kate. I'll show you mine. But only if you'll show me yours. (Failing that, work it out from the posts already made.)

fabhat said...

Brockley kate - let's treat it like a logic problem...JPM lives on Manor Road, apparently he is a journalist of some type and his child DOESN"T go to St Catherine House nursery. He uses Sainsburys in NXG and drives a car. With that information it all becomes clear: He has a black hat, a red front door and lives at number 37.

JPM said...

And another thing....

I never said that anyone 'taking it up with you (me) in person,' Which I do not favour at all. The bell rings enough with meter readers, chancers, and Jehova's Witnesess. I did say.

'I'm always prepared to meet face-to-face any person I insult.'

fabhat said...

JPM - just realised that journalist of some type might sound a bit rude. It isn't meant to be - just not sure which kind of media/specialism you do.

JPM said...

Fabhat, I only do the journalism stuff as a favour to the downtrodden.

I'm afraid I lost heart with the real 'hack' side of it since Punch Magazine folded, and then decided the best way to take on the big boys was to investigate on behalf of the little man - and then settle out of print. Very altruistic, but little money in it.

By the way, my doors not red, and I do not live on the 'odd' side. Though I have some times warn a black hat..?

Brockley Kate said...

Oh good - next BC drinks, then?

Tamsin said...

Punch got very sad before it folded and it was actually rather a relief for me when it did. I have been blessed (burdened) with an inherited complete set since 1848 or whenever it started and so was honour bound to continue with it to the bitter end.

JPM said...

Is that a date? If so that's you and Andy the Catman in one evening.

JPM said...

Tamsin, I don't think you are alone in that opinion. But you must admit some of the investigations, especially Scandal of the High Street Banks, were knockout. But I would say that.

Tamsin said...

It's a good few years ago and I can't honestly remember. Will have to dig out the boxes and revisit them sometime.

Danja said...

Well that made for a mildly diverting JPM chase

JPM said...

Tamsin, just follow this link and save some time.
http://thebigretort.blogspot.com/2007/11/scandal-of-high-street-banks.html

Tamsin said...

Yes, impressive. How long were you writing for them for or was it freelance? (And a pity you did not get a trip to Anglesey out of it!)

JPM said...

Tamsin, I was freelance. And it was a pity I did not get to Anglesey. Though I do have many happy memories as a boy visiting there. A long yesterday though. And thank you for the compliment, they come so rarely these days.

Brockley Central Label Cloud

Click one of the labels below to see all posts on that subject. The bigger the label, the more posts there are!