Manor Avenue traffic

Brockley Central reader Greg reported back from the Manor Avenue nursery hearing and explained that the Councillors hearing the case were presented with potentially very out of date photography of the road, which did not reflect how problematic parking is likely to be. This sounds like a serious flaw in the evidence, as we've certainly seen how difficult parking can be on the street.

Our first instinct on hearing this complaint was to turn to everyone's favourite "privacy" invader, Google, whose Streetview cars audited the area last year, providing a comparitively recent snap shot of the situation. We have to admit to being quite surprised that the street did not look more clogged:


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Google's satellite view tells a similar story, albeit the imagery is older.


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Obviously the situation can change dramatically depending on the time of day, day of the week and time of year. We hope that no decision is taken without a proper study of traffic and parking issues during nursery hours, during the working week, outside of the main holiday periods.

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

That's not clogged, there are plenty of spaces.

Anonymous said...

I would be interested in hearing what impact the day nursery in Harcourt Road has on local traffic - I haven't heard any complaints.

Headhunter said...

How big is the Harcourt Rd nursery? I think the problem with teh Manor Avenue nursery is that it's going to be so large. Other nurseries on residential streets in the area seem to be half this size at most.

Anonymous said...

I think the Street View photo's were taken in August last year.
I'm neither for nor against the nursery but it bemuses me why a property with 7 steps up to the front door would be a good choice for a nursery. Access for all etc

Headhunter said...

Nah it was ealier than last Aug, must've been May or latest June, I can tell by the size of the plants in my window box

Anonymous said...

If you take google to Geoffery Road and turn left, watch the yellow car as you progress along the road.

"Wilma! It's a triffid! Let's get out of here!"

Headhunter said...

The yellow Porsche must've been following the Google van as it filmed, so basically as you turn left out of Manor Ave it makes it seem as though the Porsche is reversing back up Geoffrey Rd when in fact it's following behind and effectively yuo are going back in time as you turn left up Geoffrey....

Anonymous said...

When Google starts messing with the spacetime continuum then things have gone too far. Does NO ONE watch Doctor Who?

Anonymous said...

So if you keep going round the block the size of the flowers in Headhunter's window box will get smaller and smaller?

Anonymous said...

I've seen a picture of houses on the moon.

The Cat Man said...

I think it was just prior to the Brockley Max, as my 'hedge' looks surprisingly trimmed, and I only do it perhaps once a year...

I should really trim my hedge more often! :o)

Anonymous said...

If the manor avenue google was taken on the same day as UBR then it was a Saturday as it was the day of the Myatt Garden school fair. We know we are seen walking back down UBR. Therefore parking not really representative of what happens between 8-9 30 am in the area in the week.There are quite a lot of drop offs for the school in that area and any increase in traffic in an area where there is so little signage about the school and children crossing is just going to make it worse.

Headhunter said...

If you go round the block fast enough like Superman you can actually turn back time and watch the Victorian builders construct the houses on Manor Ave.... All thanks to Google.

Headhunter said...

So when was the Myatt Garden School Fair? I want to know if I was accurate in my estimate of May/June for the filming of Manor Ave...

Val said...

By 'Harcourt road' nursery, I take it you really mean Hillyfields Day Nursery by me. This one got under are radar way back in about 94. I wish then we'd manage to get conditions attached. We did'nt. We raised a petition with other neighbours due to the fears I'm reading about here. (It was the same planning officer who started it by the way!)About 5 years ago it was granted a 2 storey extention. And get this, the nursery had no permission to use the 1st floor. What did the council do? It 'reminded' the owners. Reminded them!
Of course there's an issue! Do your research!

Anonymous said...

If I could go back to when Manor Avenue was being constructed I'd have got the roofers to do a better rafter / ceiling joist detail at the eaves.

Tamsin said...

But don't go round the block widdershins or you will disappear into the Dark Tower, Burd Ellen-like, and your three brothers will have to come and rescue you.

Anonymous said...

Headhunter, the Myatt Garden (Nursery) Summer Fair was on Saturday 5th July.

Simon said...

Dear Nick
Thank for addressing the issue of traffic generation in relation to the 60 Manor Avenue application by posting up this google street view.

The problem with any photograph is that it is a single snap shot in time. Where is the narrative to go along with it. ie :

What date was it taken on?
Was it in the middle of the summer holidays or another quiet time?
Was it on a Saturday or a Sunday or during the week?
Was time of day was it taken?

The answer (as far as i can tell) is not on the photo.

In addition:

How mamy vehicles passed up and down the street whilst this was being taken?
How many vehicles either parked up or moved away from this shot?
How many accidents may have occurred or not occurred in the view?

The answer to these questions is easy - None. and why is that? Because this is a single shot in time and little more.

This issue is really rather important for the residents' of Manor Avenue and the surrounding streets. Myself and others have been campaigning for some time now for a more detailed investigation of the traffic issues regarding this application.

Until the hearing the planning department had relied upon the applicant's Traffic Assessment - "parking on cycle lanes is not against the law", "minimal levels of extra traffic generation", "not objectionable in principal" and so on....but now this has been officially called into question.

At the committee hearing the Highways Department made a long speech just in relation to the traffic issues. It seemed to last between 5 and 10 minutes. So, from being "unobjectionable in principal" suddenly there is a real issue here.

Now that the decision has been deferred there is a great opportunity here which must be taken, for the good of the Avenue.

The applicant's Traffic Assessment has been shown at the committee hearing to be flawed (thanks here to ye of the pink shirt, that JPM fellow) Indeed, it relied upon data provided by the applicant and not obtained by independant survey which always seemed a little biased in my book.

A proper traffic survey analysing the effect this specific proposal could have on the Avenue now needs to be undertaken. Availability of spaces, dwell times for dropping off and collecting, extra traffic generation, traffic circulation on the surrounding streets and so forth.

64 children and 25 staff and it is said there is no marked effect on traffic on the Avenue because most will arrive by public transport or on foot? This sounds a little unlikely. Remember this is a quiet residential street. There are no commercial uses like this on the Avenue whatsoever (think food deliveries, extra rubbish collections and so forth)

So please, whilst a picture can say a thousand words, in this what is needed is a thousand words but from an official investigation into the traffic issues - not wobbly pic taken from a minature death death star mounted upon a pole atop a wee Smart Car!

Headhunter said...

5th July? So I was out by a month or 2.....

cabinet said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brockley Nick said...

Simon, I agree, which I hope is clear from the article.

I hope there is a proper traffic assessment.

Anonymous said...

I don't think that residents parking is a matter that planning has to take into account but there seems to be lots of space of on Ashby Road, and although it might be a trifling walk to a front door in many areas of London parking that close could be considered a luxury.

Further, you can bet your life that any 'proper traffic survey' would be so ambiguous (but correct) that it would be of little use except to those who have a full command of the Planning regulations and bending them to their own ends - ie a local Council.

Lou Baker said...

I live opposite a local nursery which has about half the number of kids as the proposed one.

If Manor Road has to deal with about twice as much traffic as we do (a fair assumption) you'll have to cope with - shock horror - as many as two cars at a time.

You see nurseries are not like schools. Not only are there far fewer kids, arrival and departure times are staggered. They don't all turn up at 830 and leave at 4. Instead they come little by little over the course of two hours and go home in the same way.

The nursery entrance is 15 yards from my front door. It causes zero problems, ever.

Consequently I find the fuss and objections here incredible and misguided - particularly as I have a baby daughter who needs to go to nursery soon.

Anyone would think they were suggesting turning the place in to a brothel or, worse, a church.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tamsin said...

A bit unfair that last comment. 99% of mothers would long to be able to stay at home and look after their baby - it's what all your hormones and instincts are screaming at you to do. But one has to face the economic realities.

I agree that drop off and delivery times are staggered - to an extent - but as I mentioned on the original discussion it is not a quick 30 second shove-a-teenager-out-of-the-door, more like five minutes or, realistically, ten. So, say 40 children over two hours at a minimum of five minutes each - at any time that is at least two extra cars in a road that already seems to be solidly parked with residents. So double-parking, people coming and going, waiting while someone pulls out to allow them to park, etc. It will be chaotic and stressful for all concerned. Oak Hill functions because there was always space for four or five extra cars on the road by the nursery.

Mark you, the huge unknown is the number of people coming by foot. There is an externally accessible lockable buggy-store at Oak Hill so people walk with their child in the buggy, leave child and buggy then walk on to catch the train. Did the applicants provide any stats. on the ratio of foot and car users at their other venues?

Headhunter said...

"....there seems to be lots of space of on Ashby Road...."

There certainly isn't in the morning when I cycle along Manor Ave and turn into Ashby! Both Manor Ave and Ashby Rd are lined with cars and vans and the turn into Ashby is often quite difficult as the traffic tried to negotiate the narrow channels between the traffic calming "humps".

Anonymous said...

At Lou Baker. "I live opposite a local nursery which has about half the number of kids as the proposed one."

Which one's that, Lou?

Why don't you book a place now? By the time your child's ready you won't have far to travel (on foot presumably).

Simon said...

To Lou Baker,

I would like to know which nursery you mean?

There is a nursery am aware of up near hilly fields where there was a neighbours' petition because of the disturbance it was causing.

Anonymous said...

Don't tell them where you live Lou, the militia will come a knocking.

Lou Baker said...

@Anon:

I may book a place but am still hoping to get my little girl in to Oak Hill instead.

That's 2 minutes away by car but we'll either be going by bike or we'll walk.

Anonymous said...

@Lou Baker
The fact that you measure the distance from your house to a nursery 'by car' does not make your argument a convincing one.
By the by, why choose Oak Hill over the one that you're opposite?

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