The Talbot: Sold

The freehold on the Talbot pub on Tyrwhitt Road has been sold by Punch Taverns.

We don't know at this stage who the buyer is, but we know that it isn't the Honor Oak team that had such exciting plans for its future.

We're guardedly optimistic about this development (as we have been about nearly every twist in the Talbot's tale).

Until now - the biggest threat to the prospect of The Talbot being reborn seemed to be the idea that Punch would price potential buyers out of the market long enough that they could sell it on to property developers as the housing market recovered, winning planning permission for its conversion on the basis that it was no longer viable as a pub.

That this deal has gone through fairly quickly suggests that scenario won't play out and that the buyer has money to invest, to realise whatever plans they have for it.

We hope to find out more soon.

77 comments:

Hugh said...

If only someone was crazy enough to transform it into south London's principal bakery.

Headhunter said...

I hope that it's the people who own the Price Regent in Herne Hill as suggested by Tyrrwhitt Michael...

M said...

Me too - that's a good pub. Fingers crossed...

Headhunter said...

On the subject of pubs, I actually quite like what the WA has done with its garden and the railings now that it's all finished. It's a shame to lose part of what was possibly an original Victorian wall that had survived 100 odd years, but the opening has really opened the garden up and as someone else pointed out, Ashby Rd now benefits from better security as all in the pub can now see onto the street. They seem to have installed some subtle lighting and put up a kids play area at the back, or perhaps that was all there before but I hadn't noticed, I have been out in the garden at the WA a while back but it was all a bit enclosed and featureless, looks better now.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

I'll see it when I believe it........or something.

Seriously I'm glad but sad it closed down, as it has allowed me to explore the other delights of Brockley nightlife!

One R in Tyrwhitt by the way HH

Headhunter said...

Bugger, I can never quite get the spelling of that street right....

Anonymous said...

If The Talbot is done up to its potential it will take custom away from other pubs in the area

Brockley Nick said...

Perhaps a little. But assuming it's done by the Prince Regent team then I think its far more likely that it will attract people who simply don't go to the pub in Brockley because their tastes aren't catered for curremtly.

Competition is healthy. Particularly in an area starved of decent pubs.

Headhunter said...

Exactly, take Herne Hill for example there are several pubs and bars catering for the same type of clientele - The Prince Regent, The Florence, The Commercial, Escape Bar and Art - that's at least 4 "trendy" pub/bar type places which all seem to flourish. Brockley has the Wickham Arms which is decent but doesn't cater for that same crowd, other than that there's nothing in Brockley, unless you class places like Jam Circus in Crofton Park as in our catchment area, however it's a fair walk from where I am on Manor Ave. There's definitely space for a decent pub at the Talbot.

On another note, has anyone heard whether Royal Teas has sealed the deal on Moonbow Jakes old place?

M said...

Brockley has less pubs in it than anywhere else I've lived in London - it could easily accommodate one more!

Headhunter said...

It does seem remarkably pub and bar free. Of course quite a few have fallen victim to developers such as the Lord Wolseley opposite the WA, the Maypole/Mayflower or whatever it was called on the west side and that other one which now has flats for sale on Malpas or Shadeloes Rd (I think).

Trouble is, so many of them had turned into dodgy, dirty holes rather than assets to the community as they are in other places, so few people put up much of a struggle when they closed. Shame really because once these community spaces close and fall into private hands, they never go back.

The only place I've lived with fewer pubs is the Corbett estate in Catford which was built by a Methodist who abhorred alcohol in the 1800s, the nearest pub was 30 mins walk away.

Anonymous said...

It's going to become flats.

Anonymous said...

In regards to pubs that do still exist I went to the Telegraph the other night. Great little gem of a boozer and well worth checking out if you've never been.

M said...

Anon 11.47 - why do you say that? Do you know something or are you just being provocative?
I can't imagine there's much of a market for more flats at the moment.

Headhunter said...

It's possible developers have got hold of it, who knows.

On the subject of developers, that house on Manor Avenue which Nick wrote an article about a few months back, naming and shaming it as the longest standing derelict property in Brockers, is actually be redeveloped at last. The interior and stonework on the outside have been painted and there is new plumbing pipework visible.

So there obviously still is some appetite for development...

Anonymous said...

M: the council are building several hundreds of flats just down the road from the Talbot - please could you pass your advice on the them.

Anonymous said...

There's still money to be made in property. The cost of building is low at the moment. Builders are having to compromise on their fees because of the lull in the market, land is also reasonably cheap. It's a good time to redevelop a site such as the Talbot (depending on what price they got it for) into flats - not sure it's such a confident market to reopen an old pub that may or may not have a market. We'll all know soon enough though.

M said...

That's what I meant - there are loads of flats being built around here. Let's have a decent pub instead.

Paddyom said...

In relation to HH's question..."has anyone heard whether Royal Teas has sealed the deal on Moonbow Jakes old place?"...wrong thread i know but does anyone know the status of this? Moonbows is looking pretty unloved at present. Nick, heard anything lately from the chap in Greenwich?

patrick1971 said...

Headhunter, I believe much of Brockers was developed by a teetotaller as well, not sure if it was the same teetotaller as Catford. Hence the lack of pubs.

Tressillian James said...

Also you need to think of the market when Brockley was developed. This isn't the Eastend , where the pubs served as social outlets and a place to escape the samll rooms you rented. The population of the conservation area were not likely to go to pubs, and would either take drinks at home, or at clubs in the city or westend. Victorian home life for the middle classes (or those that aspired to them) was one of sobriety - and it wouldn't be done for pater to be popping off to the pub.

Headhunter said...

TJ - Yes, that's a good point, if you've got a large house with several reception rooms and servants to stoke the fires and bring you a nice bottle of claret, who needs a pub? Terribly working class....

Headhunter said...

Patrick - The cons area was developed by the Wickham, Drake and Tyrwhitt families wasn't it? Hadn't heard that they were teetotal, perhaps so....

Anonymous said...

The Art Students have to vacate the Talbot this week I believe.

James said...

Due to it's proximity to the railway lines i.e. right on them, if The Talbot does get converted to housing (and knowing Lewisham Council's lack of understanding of the value contemporary Social and Community land uses), the development is likely to have a substantial degree of social housing.

Don't be surprised if they use it to provide off-site affordable housing for some of the Gateway site.

That’s if Boris doesn't wipe affordable housing off the London Plan agenda. More info: http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/publications/2009/05/london-plan-initial-proposals.jsp

osh said...

To turn it in to flats they'd have to have planning permission. No one's made an application. Lewisham's not likely to grant permission to convert it when there have been bids on the table to refurbish it.

this will stay a pub.

Anonymous said...

Wasnt the building opposite ( stones )Supposed to be turned into flats,Nothing doing so far.

Headhunter said...

I think the application to convert the Stones building was refused a while back wasn't it? If the Talbot has only just sold then any planning application may still be in the post, so to speak.

BTW what happened with the application to relpace that old Victorian house (number 65?) on Breakspears with a nasty looking Barratt style 80s property? Did it get approved in the end?

Anonymous said...

i heard Lewisham Planning bought it and the Early Years team are hoping to turn it into Children's Nursery...wathc this space....

patrick1971 said...

You could be right about the development of the conservation area, Headhunter. The teetotal thing was one of the reasons I'd heard for Brockers only really having the Wickham, the Barge and the Brockley Jack, but TJ's explanation sounds plausible also.

Headhunter said...

Don't forget the Lord Wolesley pub which was in the grand building opposite the Wickham Arms til 2003 when it was converted into flats along with all the little shops along the parade next to the WA...

Richard said...

Really hope it will continue as a pub and that the new owhers have the same ambition as James at Honor Oak. Near enough for an evening stroll if it turns out to be a decent pub.

Victorian Dad said...

A lot of the pubs are on the periphery of the residential areas so you walk past them (even if you need a minor detour) on the way home from the station.

No doubt the Victorain Gentleman popped in for a quick sharpner without distressing the mem-sahib.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

Pubs that have closed in area

Crown and Sceptre X2
Duke of Edinburgh
Crystal Palce Tavern
Cardinal Wolsey
The Angel

and even

Yates Wine Lodge....

Anymore?

Headhunter said...

Those weren't all specifically Brockley though, were they TM? Yates's was in central Lewisham, the others I don't know - where were they?

What's that one on Friendly Street, down in St Johns conservation area? Can't remember the name but it was open as a pub when I first moved to the area in 2006, but has been boarded up since 07 I think and there has been a sign saying that an application has been made or has been successful, to turn it into flats. However it has remained boarded up with no sign of action yet.

If we're talking about the wider area, a couple of pubs at least have closed on the road from Deptford Broadway into Greenwich in the past 6 months or so.

fabhat said...

HH - I think the crown and sceptre is the one you mean?

Headhunter said...

Yeah that might be the one... The Crystal Palace Tavern is alive and well as far as I know, I cycled past it about 2 weeks ago, it looked well cared for, there were people sat outside in the sun supping beer... You mean the place near Lordship Lane?

Anonymous said...

No the crystal palace tavern on tanners hill has gone.Its now flats,There was also the Royal Oak at the bottom of loampit hill.

Headhunter said...

Here's a bunch of photos of closed pubs in Deptford - there are nearly 60 photos!

neanderthal d said...

Another for the list of the departed:

The Alfred on Albyn Road near the lower part of Friendly Gardens.

Good riddance to Punch Taverns.

Hopefully the people buying the freehold for The Talbot don't go the whole Gatro hog.

Headhunter said...

I doubt there's a market in Brockley for an ooh la la chi chi gastro pub, it would have to have its feet firmly on the ground, this is Lewisham not the Royal Borough of Chelsea and Kensington!

Anonymous said...

there's enough gastros around already,About time somebody done one like an old western saloon.

Anonymous said...

HH I think you will find not every pub on that list is closed down

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

I would agree that the pictures on HH's link show Pubs that are still operating happily as well as "ex" pubs.

Included in the photos are one of the Crown And Sceptres on Cranbrook Road, the other one I was referring to was on Algernon Road.

The Duke of Edinburgh was the one on Malpas Road which is now flats whilst the Crystal Palce Tavern pictured on the Fickr page was the one on Tanners Hill which has now been demolished.

The Royal George and Royal Standard on the same street still operate as pubs although the latter has a thriving backpaackers hostel upstairs.

The Angel was at the bottom of Loampit Hill so Lewisham really, now a block flat called Angel Court.

I was joking with Yates's although it doesn't seem long ago it opened with a big local fanfare......

Headhunter said...

Yeah some are still open but the majority seem to be closed down or demolished, a lot in the last couple of years!

Anon - A Western saloon?! Why on earth would Brockley need a cowboy theme pub? Would they serve the "Brockley burger" with rancheros fries or whatever, served by local Goldsmiths students working there part time done up in chaps and stetson hats?

Anonymous said...

The pub on Algernon rd,Was The Crown and Anchor not The Crown and sceptre.

Headhunter said...

If we're getting pernickerty, it was the Lord Wolseley not the Cardinal Wolseley....

tyrwhitt michael said...

I thought two Crown and Sceptres was overkill.

Thank you for the correction.

Was it the Lord Wolseley or the Lord Wolsey?

Headhunter said...

It was the Lord Wolseley. Well it was according to all the pub websites on the net which still show it as a fully functioning pub! To be honest it had closed and been turned into flats before I ever lived in the area...

TM said...

In that case named after the 19th Century soldier rather than Henry VIII's religious sidekick...

Anonymous said...

If punch have sold the freehold,doesn't that mean whoever, wont be tied to buying beer from them ??

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

That's correct. Punch are having to sell off the family silver as they have badly wounded and nearly killed the goose that laid the golden eggs..... I think.

Basically Punch have been greedy. Not satisfied with charging top rents they also charged top prices for the beer, which their tenants contractually had to buy from them.

This is why so many Punch tenants are now either going bust or not renewing their leases and why so many of their pubs are closing down. Less rental income for Punch means dipping into their capital reserve in the form of their property to pay off their loans.

I would be interested to know if the Honor Oak have taken the opportunity to buy their freehold.

And you thought it was just the banks in trouble.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

Oh and the MP's being greedy.

Anonymous said...

I think the guys upstairs have moved out.

Anonymous said...

The Talbot - all will be revealed soon

Anonymous said...

Looking forward to drinking and eating in The Talbot in September.

M said...

You tease... Spill (please)!

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

They will have to go some if you expect a fully compliant EHO approved kitchen installed and up and running by September.

Especially if they put it on the first floor.

They will have all their water on to get the cellar good enough to keep beer in and bar presentable enough to serve customers in what .......... only 11 weeks?

Headhunter said...

A surveyor friend of mine was there a short while ago and reckons that it's going to be turned into flats not a pub. He thinks the FH buyer was a property developer.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

That makes more sense. Obviously Anon is the builder who is going to do the conversion and will - at Luchtime - be eating and drinking in there whilst he is doing the work.

Nothing like adding up two and two and making five.

Anonymous said...

two and two certainly do make five. dont worry The Talbot is not dissapearing

Jill said...

When is the bag lady opposite due to die so that the ramshackle wreck next door to the newsagents can be sorted?

Anonymous said...

callous.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

Do keep up Jill

Said bag lady was only a tenant and was moved into sheltered accommodation by the council well over a year ago.

She is still seen around the place occasionally.

The shop reverted to a West Indian Gentleman who lived at no 8 but then he died and his son(s) inherited.

The house is now squatted whilst the shop is being cleared out and will be converted by one of the sons, I am informed, into a solicitor's office (planning permitting).

Once it has permission for a solicitors office it can become a bookies (licence permitting).

W P Stones is the one that has gone very quiet despite the reasons for the refusal being quite easy to circumvent with a little thought and some redesign IMHO.

Anonymous said...

not long till the new owners get started!

Headhunter said...

....On building the new flats?

neanderthal d said...

@ Jill 8th July

The "bag lady" whose death you keenly anticipate is called Patricia.

She lived in the house on the corner all her life. Her family owned the building.

Patricia is a well spoken and educated lady and i have had some interesting and pleasant conversations with her. I wonder if i would be able to say the same about you, Jill, if we were ever to have the pleasure of meeting?

Anonymous said...

LET THE WORK COMMENCE NEXT WEEK.

Headhunter said...

I'll believe it when I see it. Not holding my breath on this one...

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

Perhaps Jill and Neanderthal can meet and have a polite discussion in the bar on opening night.

Whenever that will be.......

Anonymous said...

if you dont believe me go and see the removal men tomorrow

Anonymous said...

Brockey D, is that you? I thought you would never invest. Flats it is then?

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

No sign of removal men when I walked past this morning.....

Colm said...

The amazing tatooed man was leaning out the window about an hour ago. Removals?

Erin Brock said...

Maybe the new guv'nor? Theres lots of 'stripping out' type activity going on this morning. Is it too early to hope we're going to get our local back?

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

A couple of skips outside would be a good sign............

Anonymous said...

dont worry Erin u are getting it back and i think u will like it..

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