Brockley Road girl convicted of honey trap murder

Samantha Joseph, 16, has been convicted of murder for luring a Deptford boy to his death at the hands of a south London gang. The Times reports:

Joseph, who had no previous convictions, was brought up by her hard-working mother, Sheila, the head chef at a pub in Brockley. She lived with her mother in a flat above a bookmaker’s on the busy Brockley Road in southeast London.

A total of seven people will be sentenced for the crime, which took place in Thornton Heath, last year.

142 comments:

Anonymous said...

And I hope she gets sentenced as heavy as the person who did It

4x4 said...

Scum

Daley M said...

String 'em up. It's the only language they understand.

Anonymous said...

A grim reminder that we live in one of the biggest, and as is usually the case, most dangerous cities in the world.

Tressilliana said...

Alternatively, we could tackle head on the issue of why a small number of young people turn out violent, amoral and completely lacking in empathy and as a consequence ruin their own lives and other peoples'. There is plenty of research evidence now that some of it is down to their genes (e.g. a tendency to ADHD), a lot is due to substance abuse from an early age and a lot more is down to upbringing or the lack of it. Fortunately, research also shows that a great deal can be done to minimise the damage done to very young children by poor or abusive parenting if it's done early enough and intensively. The cost of doing that would be far less than the costs of dealing with crime, mental health problems and unemployment later on in life if we just stand back and let these children drift. I'd vote for any party that made this a top priority and meant it.

Brockley Nick said...

Anon - among the biggest, yes. Most dangerous? Nowhere near. Try JoBurg, Baghdad, Kingston, Caracas, St Louis, etc.

By EU standards, London is dangerous. By world standards, pretty tame.

Anonymous said...

It's still dangerous. Stop being so protectionist over it.

Brockley Nick said...

I'm not, I'm just asking for factual accuracy, rather than alarmist exaggeration.

Anonymous said...

And all I was offering was a reminder that we live in "one of" the most dangerous. Yes, not a JoBurg or somewhere in Cambodia, but similarly not a quiet hamlet in Cumbria.

Brockley Nick said...

A quiet hamlet in Cumbria is not a city. Look at the stats, not the headlines.

Ed said...

Anon - perhaps if you'd said "it's a grim reminder that London is more dangerous than some hamlets in Cumbria" no-one would have taken issue with you.

fred vest said...

to be fair i don't think nick is being protectionist over it, just responding to a fairly stupid claim that london is one of the most dangerous cities in the world

Tressillian James said...

On the subject of crime - I posted this to the Suggest a topic thread. A guy was randomly attacked by someone with a hammer near the Honor Oak pub.

http://www.mercury-today.co.uk/tn/news.cfm?id=26123

Whilst London is not the most dangerous cities in the world; we should all still be careful

Anonymous said...

I think the other Anon does have a bit of a point here. London isn't Mogadishu but none of us would ever live there. Of all the cities Nick listed only Joburg compares with London in a lifestyle sense. Mentioning Baghdad is hardly like for like and you should feel
just a little embarassed by that one, Nick? When talking about it's relative dangers we should be looking at cities like Paris, Munich, New York, Toronto.
DAVEY

trying to understand said...

Very wise post Tressilliana, you've hit the nail on the head. Many teenagers go off the rails for a few years, a tiny minority go too far and pay a cruel price for the family and society in which they've been raised.

We care too little about our fellow human beings and sometimes those that need the care regretably reject it.

Teenagers need special care and understanding.

fred vest said...

"When talking about it's relative dangers we should be looking at cities like Paris, Munich, New York, Toronto. "

this point should be made to the anon who made the initial comment, not nick, who only held up a mirror to the absurdity of the claim being made

personally i don't think it's helpful comparing london with either the likes of baghdad or paris because I live in London and what goes on there effects me and the community I actually live in. It doesn't make me feel any better or worse knowing that something is worse or better elsewhere, folk that have to put up with the fall out of anti-social crime, drug culture, alchohol abuse, poor housing & education, job insecurity, ever increasing social and economic inequality and the impact that brings - all have to deal with that in absolute, not in relative terms, and the focus of saying somewhere else is worse so we shouldn't complain/react against it or that somewhere else is better so we should all move there is a completely pointless one to take and ignores what's going on around us

Brockley Nick said...

Anon - if the other anon had said "among the most dangerous of the major cities in the safest countries in the world, such as Canada and France, that would have been a different claim.

Of the cities you list, London has a much lower murder rate than New York and I think London and Paris are pretty comparable. No idea about Toronto and Munich.

London isn't even the most dangerous city in the UK. Glasgow is.

Nor is the murder rate in London going up - http://tinyurl.com/cw7m5c

Headhunter said...

As DAVEY says, I suppose if we compare like to like, ie major cities in developed nations, London must rank pretty high up the list in terms of crime levels. Outside the developing world, not many other cities spring to mind as having crime levels like London. Perhaps some US cities?

The other weekend a friend of mine from Texas was here in London, as we walked back from Brockley station, just by Brock X, a car drove past and fired some kind of water pistol at us giving us a good drenching, then the next day as we walked down Friendly Street some kids lobbed a water bomb/balloon at us, it missed completely though. I brushed both things off but she said that in Houston, Texas, she would have reported incidents like these to the police (although she did admit that other people in Houston would go home for the 12 bore and hunt 'em down). I told her that in London the police would probably just laugh and hang up on you at something so trivial...

Anonymous said...

Has race been brought up yet?

Headhunter said...

No. Why, what about it? Are you Cat Man?

Anonymous said...

I think you're being a little too reactionary. Anons initial statment isn't that far off the mark.
DAVEY

Brockley Nick said...

DAVEY - I just like people's comments to based on facts.

Brockley Nick said...

If you want fact-free hysteria, there are a million other websites talking about the same thing right now.

drakefell debaser said...

Of all the cities Nick listed only Joburg compares with London in a lifestyle sense.

Davey, have you lived in Johannesburg to draw this comparison?

Anonymous said...

Tress'a

Sorry but your analysis just doesn't hold water. There are plenty of teenagers with all of the disadvantages you mention - and more - who don't turn to crime. Being soft on a murderer like this girl is kicking the good kids and their parents in the teeth yet again.

Just as some people are particularly good people, equally some people are particularly bad. Accept it and deal with it to protect the remainder of society.

As regards sentence, she is guilty of the secondary offence of aiding and abetting a murder. Max levels for murder therefore apply.

The victim's whole family meanwhile suffers for the rest of their lives.

Let's think a bit more about him and their suffering than searching for excuses for his murderers.

Anonymous said...

the key thing is very often lack of family structure and commensurate lack of discipline from a father.

fred vest said...

something that never seems to get any attention is that twice as many people are killed at work through each year in the UK than through homicide

why no outrage over this?

Violent street crime consumes enormous political, media and academic energy. But, as hundreds of thousands of workers and their families know, it is the violence associated with working for a living that is most likely to kill and hospitalise.

HSE enforcement notices fell by 40% and prosecutions fell by 49% between 2001/02 and 2005/06. The collapse in HSE enforcement and prosecution sends a clear message that the government is prepared to let employers kill and maim with impunity

http://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/opus685/crisisenforcementembargo.pdf

fred vest said...

sorry, proper link below

The decriminalisation of death and injury at work

Anonymous said...

Thats far too balanced a comment fred, please drink several cans of strong continental lager and then come back and give an opinion.

Dumbo said...

Well done Brockley Central; mods and commenters for keeping the discussion not completely stupid like me.

Anonymous said...

For what its worth, I am South African and have lived in Joburg. We have bad crime but it is totally different to the UK. We dont have gangs of young kids stabbing and killing each other and having a total disregard for life and who take pleasure harassing the general public. This is a social/economic epidemic in this country and time for the government to realise that not using discipline and being over politically correct has caused this behaviour!

Anonymous said...

yes you do mate!

Anonymous said...

'Yes you do mate!' - what?

Anonymous said...

"Have gangs of kids stabbing and killing each other"

Anonymous said...

Interesting - have you lived there or where do you get your opinion from?

Tressilliana said...

@Anon 11.02: I think you'll struggle to find anything in my previous post that suggests we should be soft on this young woman or others like her. I didn't say that people who break the law should be excused if they had a rough upbringing, or that we should pay more attention to the perpetrators than the victims. I said that we as a society should be doing more to prevent children growing up in conditions that do (in some cases) lead them to become violent, amoral and criminal. There are plenty of warning signs, but at the moment we're not doing anything like enough to act on them.

From what I know about our prison system I don't think that 10 or 15 or 20 years or whatever she and the rest of the gang get will do anything much to prevent them returning to similar behaviour when they're released.

And finally... Shakilus Townsend came to a horrible end - no one deserves to be treated like that. And yes, his family will suffer for the rest of their lives. But I wonder how many of those fulminating here are aware that Shakilus himself was a gang member with a criminal record and that Samantha Joseph had been regularly beaten by the ringleader of the gang that killed Shakilus. This isn't a simple case of goodies and baddies.

Anonymous said...

Just makes you think how bad It would be If they had ever legalised guns ?

Paddyom said...

Anon - you are right, "gangs of young kids stabbing and killing each other and having a total disregard for life and who take pleasure harassing the general public" is definitely unique to Britain, certainly unique in terms of Western countries. I think things have got bad here because there is effectively no general law enforcement in this city. The police only get involved when things have reached a worst-case-scenario situation i.e. someone has been murdered or stabbed etc... Since moving here 4 years ago I have had 3 friends mugged/attacked and there was 'nothing the poilce could do'; I called them about noisey nuisance neighbours and troublesome gangs of kids on separate occasions and there was 'nothing they could do'; my flat and my neighbours flats were recently burgled and again there was 'nothing they could do'. In fact they seem entirely incapable of action. They only seem to actually get off their behinds when there is a murder or a very serious attack/robbery. When do you ever see Police in SE4 stopping people for minor law breaking - speeding / littering / anti-social hanging around / driving dangerously....which i see EVERY DAY on my 10 minute walk to and from the station. Its an absolute joke here.

Anonymous said...

To be fair the unfortunate thing about burgalries and the like is that there is very little you can do. You can dust for prints, check them, and that's about it. Do you want them to set up an incident room?

Paddyom said...

Dont know what an incident room is mate, but given 13 flats in SE4 were burgled at 2pm on a Tuesday afternoon 2 weeks ago surely someone mustve seen something. They could have at least made some investigations locally, stuck up a sign looking for witnesses, even checked local businesses cc TV etc... anything is better than turning up with one arm longer than the other, looking gormless and saying 'there is nothing we can do'.

Bod said...

More Council Tax wasted.

Anonymous said...

Is the waterbombing as bad in Joberg?

Anonymous said...

I think the difference in the nature of the crimes is that in Joburg there are gangsters doing cowardly acts for financial gain (under the myth that they doing it out of poverty) and over here these gangster 'hoody' kids are doing it for intimidation, 'fun' and for so called respect/credibility or a sense of belonging. Very different scenarios. Both are very sad and need to be addressed.

drakefell debaser said...

I don’t see how you can even attempt to draw parallels with crime in Joburg and what goes on in London.

Poverty is not a myth in South Africa, it is blatantly obvious in many places and drives a lot of the crime that goes on.

Anonymous said...

Incidents of rape are frighteningly high in Joburg.

Anonymous said...

Male or female?

Anonymous said...

@ Drakefell
I wasnt saying Poverty is a myth, I was saying there is a lot of people that participate in crime and wrongly use the excuse of poverty. Example: They are not stealing to put food on the table, so to speak. They are criminals making very large sums of money by armed robbery or car jacking etc.
I do sympathise for the masses of unemployed people who struggle to make ends meet. This doesnt justify murder etc. The irony is that until crime is neutralised, SA will struggle to get foreign investment and see an improvement for the masses.

max said...

DD, you're correct in saying that crime here in London is another thing that crime in South Africa (I visited Cape Town's townships' secondary schools for two weeks a few years ago and saw the shocking reality with my eyes).

But this specific crime is actually also the product of poverty, that's cultural poverty.
People whose main cultural reference is the gang sub-culture because the familiar and social network they should be growing into do not provide enough support are deprived of a lot of what's needed to develop into wholesome individual and Lord of the Flies type situations like these show that there are parallels to be drawn with the group dynamics that go on in other deprived environments, like crime ridden townships.

Me said...

I don't know what I can do about this crime. But do my best to be nice to be people even strangers. I go out of my way to be kind. Hopefully this sets a good example.

Anonymous said...

UK urgently needs to get kids to respect adults, each other and their community.
This should happen regardless of their family upbringing, financial situation or their age.
Education & discipline are key too.

M said...

'UK urgently needs to get kids to respect adults, each other and their community.
This should happen regardless of their family upbringing, financial situation or their age.
Education & discipline are key too.'

Well that's that sorted then. You ring the government and I'll round up the kids.

Jimmy McSporran said...

What will the mung beaners do about this? Perhaps an organic tea and biscuits afternoon would help, trestle tables on the pavements, jumpers for goalposts, etc. We in the Conservation Area must do what we can.

Anonymous said...

I wish it was a matter of just phoning the government up and getting it sorted. Unfortunately I think this country is to blame for the situation that now exists.
Corporal punishment & other methods have been abolished for all the right reasons eg: physical abuse etc but with it has gone the respect for adults, rules and society. Kids think and know that they can do what they like, when and where they like.

Anonymous said...

Yet another case: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Knife-Crime-Youths-To-Be-Sentenced-Over-Shaquille-Maitland-Smiths-Murder/Article/200907215332608?lpos=UK_News_News_Your_Way_Region_2&lid=NewsYourWay_ARTICLE_15332608_Knife_Crime%3A_Youths_To_Be_Sentenced_Over_Shaquille_Maitland-Smiths_Murder

Bob said...

Jimmy, are you the same poster that's always going on about 'mung beaners' and organics/fair trade/free range on this blog?
I'm just wondering what your problem with it all is?
Does it affect you in some way (are you a battery chicken farmer for example!?) or are you just anti the middle classes and/or liberals (and yes, I realise this is slightly stereotyping the sort of people who buy organic etc)?
I'm genuinely interested.

Anonymous said...

Ask not what the conservation area can do for you, but it what ways you can complain about the conservation area.

Anonymous said...

One of the kids in the gang went to a 14k a year public school. Now faces a 'life sentence' with a 14-18 year stretch. Imagine how his parents must feel.

Andre Johnson-Haynes, a rugby-playing public schoolboy who had been signed up by London Irish.

Detective Inspector Barney Ratcliffe..."We have got to be a lot more mindful about what our children are doing out on the streets on a day-to-day basis and we have got to be a little more intrusive as to who their friends are and what they are doing with those friends.

"We all have a responsibility, whether we are police officers, parents or local residents, to try and divert those youths from this gang and knife culture that seems to be plaguing our streets."

Anonymous said...

to all who blame poverty:

we are the richest per capita we have ever been.

please desist from patent rubbish such as shaking your head mournfully, sympathising with the perpetrators owing to their oh so difficult lives, and saying wisely "poverty causes crime".

It doesn't - lack of early discipline does.

why do these children fail to be dsiciplined? becuase their mothers and fathers are no longer together, if they ever were.

starting point - stop girls getting pg young, stop allocation of flats on the basis of children and watch the number of babies drop and use of contraception increase. Tough on the first few? yes, but that's what government and policy formulation is about - doing the best for the majority.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 1459 - I imagine they feel hugely guilty.

let's stop wasting empathy on the perpetrators. many good children come from the slums and make something of their lives. let's concentrate on giving thema hand up in life.

Anon 14.59 said...

That is true but go to sky news and hear what the mother has to say. I think gang culture is society fault. We care more about lifestyle than morality. We mock people who are community minded as do gooders, people involved in the church are delusional, men that want to work with kids are suspect. There's loads of little attitudes in our society that contribute to this, for boys to assert their masculinity gangs provide an all too easy solution.

It's shame more 'dance' gangs like diversity and flawless aren't about so kids could assert themselves via their skills rather supposed 'terrority'.

Paddyom said...

I am with Anon 15.01!

Anonymous said...

Is that an organic, hand cut, locally sourced chip on your shoulder Jimmy McSporran?

fred vest said...

"It's shame more 'dance' gangs like diversity and flawless aren't about"

every cloud eh...

Anonymous said...

I don't think you'd find the nation's youth universally turning to dance in a million years.

M said...

*does jazz hands*

*drops knife*

Worzel said...

You have to admit that girl is pretty fit.

Anonymous said...

Hugh really think so?

Anonymous said...

I asked if it was male or female rape because the cases of gang related male rape has been on the increase in the south east;

http://www.met.police.uk/sapphire/docs/malevictimsofsexualassault_punjabi.pdf

It seems a worrying new trend has developed amongst gang members whereby a male of one gang will rape a male of another gang to show their dominance and masculinity. Unfortunately the instances of reporting this crime are very low due to the stigma attached within the black and asian comunities.

I think this is disgusting and does nothing to curb the ever increasing instances of sti's among our young..

PfkaG said...

Here's one for the deliterati.

When reading the Recent Comments bar on the right, this thread has the far more parochial sounding "Brockley Road girl gets convicted of Honey". Probably from a supermarket. Tut tut.

;-)

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

69 comments very apt for a honey trap story.

Oh dear I've just spoilt it!

I blane too much American TV and Music.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

But not Michael Jackson of course

Anon 14.59 said...

Gangs aren't inherently bad things. I mentioned dance gangs, as it's a creative outlet where those involved, if they reach the level of Diversity can get recognition, money and other positive benefits.
Funnily enough with Michael Jackson being mentioned, some of his videos had dance gangs. And the film Westside Story was on a similiar theme; the transmutation of violence into dance.

So you laugh M but who knows? It's not for everyone but it's better idea to help take the violence out of gangs than anything you've offered.

Monkeyboy said...

Christ on a bike, according to this we're not even in the top 20, can't 'Great Britain' be the world leader in ANYTHING? Even Switzerland beats us. Mind you if I lived in Switzerland I may commit the odd murder. Bugger all else to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Monkeyboy said...

...or this... http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html in the late '90's London wasn't in the top 20. Ah! the late '90's!! those we're the days. Not like now, bloody dangerous. My mate went out to get a pint of milk, blah, blah, blah.....

BrockleyBiker said...

"Alternatively, we could tackle head on the issue of why a small number of young people turn out violent, amoral and completely lacking in empathy and as a consequence ruin their own lives and other peoples'. There is plenty of research evidence now that some of it is down to their genes (e.g. a tendency to ADHD)"

Er, fuck off. AD(H)D does not give you a genetic predisposition towards violence, unemphatic amorality.

Anonymous said...

I suppose this story is linked....

I wonder if anyone had noted the 20ft skid marks on Manor Avenue?! I was walking back home last friday night along Manor Avenue when a white van came screaming around the corner onto manor avenue doing (i reckon) about 50-60mph. Given I live on Manor Ave and have witnessed the nutters and the near misses, I gave a shout to tell the driver to slow down... I wish I hadn't. He slammed on his breaks (hence the skid marks), grinded to a halt and jumped out of his car holding a metal bar and was screaming at me!! I must admit I thought he was going to batter me, it was only until he spotted a lady parked in her car (near the incident) that witnessing the event did he then decide to jump back in his car and speed off.

Scary moment!

Anonymous said...

Suddenly his van turned Into a car

Anonymous said...

yeah.... 'suddenly'

sorry for the slight inaccuracy..... it was a van.

drakefell debaser said...

Did you get a number plate?

You should report it to the police.

Brockley Police said...

There's nothing we can do, mate.

I'm off to broca for a fairtrade doughnut.

Tressilliana said...

'Er, fuck off. AD(H)D does not give you a genetic predisposition towards violence, unemphatic amorality.'

And a very good morning to you too, Brockley Biker.

One, that's not what I said. Two, as I understand it, ADHD makes people a lot more likely to act impulsively, which is one obvious risk factor for ending up involved in criminality. There are others:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/if/4075275.stm

Mt Nimby said...

We pay their rent.

Anonymous said...

ADHD? Naughty kids more like.

I wonder how many people in Brockley have Yuppie Flu?

Mark said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Headhunter said...

I saw those enormous skid marks on the road on Manor Ave, I just assumed some loony rat run driver had come screaming round from Geoffrey Rd trying to cut through avoiding Malpas or Wickham when they suddenly saw the road hump.

The skids seem to stop fairly suddenly at the 1st or 2nd road hump. This is exactly why I am happy when people double park along Manor Ave and happy that there are traffic calming shoulders, it discourages loony drivers trying to shave a tenth of a second off their journey by screeching along residential streets.

Headhunter said...

I agree with Paddyom re police attitudes. Not sure whether this is through lack of funding. There seems to be a feeling that the police are detached from society as a whole and operate in a very reactive fashion, only dealing with serious crime. It's almost as though a certain level of crime, including non violent mugging, burglary, bullying etc are tolerated.

I have occasionally seen police cars patrolling Brockers, but never seen the police on foot. I've also got experience of lack of action in response to a "minor" incident when a yob in Bermondsey lobbed a stone at me as a cycled past on the way home from work. The stone bounced off my helmet, but if I hadn't been wearing it I would have suffered a nasty gash to the temple. The yobs ran off laughing when I stopped so I cycled the 10 mins home and called the police (it was winter so freezing out and I didn't want to stand around in the cold). The response was that "there is nothing we can do" as I had left it too long to call, the woman I spoke to almost seemed to blame me. She also got quite argumentative when I couldn't tell her the specific postcode of the street on which it happened!

On the other hand when someone nicked my mobile when I was at the bus stop outside what is now that enormous police station in Lewisham (which wasn't there at the time, this was back in 2001), I called the police and they came within 5 mins and drove me around in a van trying to track the guy down.

Anon 14.59 said...

If you have a bit of spare cash or time, there's things you can do.

A regular donation to Kidscompany

http://www.kidsco.org.uk/
To people who are 'walking the talk', working with children who have had difficult starts in life, and by difficult, I'm talking about kids who have survived the kind of violence that Baby P went through.

(a fiver per month)


Mentoring a child
http://www.chanceuk.com/site/63/225.html

A saturday am or pm for a year to help a child who could do with a bit of guidance or just someone who'll listen. Think about all those difficult situations that you've been through and have got through, you could share this with a kid and help them.

Think about Samantha Joseph 15years old and possibly being bullied and feeling trapped, if she had had someone like you to talk to, maybe you could have set out some options, this situation could have been avoided.

drakefell debaser said...

Nice one Brockley police, you need a sharp wit to blend a tired fair trade joke with apathy. You needn’t have bothered.

I became a ‘victim of crime’ last night – both mine and my partner’s bikes were stolen from outside the globe theatre. We logged an online report last night and await a call from the police hopefully today. I am sure there is nothing they can do and so it will be a formality of getting a crime reference number and then seeing if the insurance will pay. Then in a couple of weeks we will get that letter expressing its sympathy that we were victims of crime and a phone number in case we need to speak to someone for counselling. Job done as far as the process goes and we go down as a statistic.

This is the 4th time I have been a victim of crime in the 8 years I have lived in London and I have never seen an end result of either having my goods recovered or the perpetrator caught. However I still believe that you have to report these things because how else are the police to know what goes on?

My bike can be replaced but if that lady hadn’t been in the car and attacked anon 8:52 or perhaps goes on to attack someone this weekend then what?

If we all sit back and say well there is no point because nothing will come of it then yes, nothing will ever come of it. Get some ambition.

Anonymous said...

It's worth reporting bad motorist behaviour to the police. I was yelled and sworn at by someone I took to task for doing an illegal turn and driving across a (busy) pedestrian crossing while the green man was lit. I left a message on a police website saying "don't suppose you can do anything but here's the details and the registration" and within half an hour an inspector from the transport police was on the phone to me, and half an hour later he'd tracked down and received an apology from the company concerned and an assurance they'd be having a word with the driver. I was given the option of taking it further but declined.

Tressilliana said...

The police can and do act on some things. When my son, then aged 13, was stopped near Hilly Fields and the two teenagers concerned told him to give them all his stuff or they would knife him, the police tracked down one of the perpetrators (aged 14) and he was convicted. This was about 18 mths ago. They had only my son's account of what happened and then his ID of the boy they arrested. I was impressed that they thought that was enough to go on and they were very good at keeping us informed.

Brockley Crim said...

The police are buying organic donuts, quick let's raid the fried chicken shop!

ladywell pedant said...

The Brockley side of Hilly Fields or the Ladywell side?

(trick question)

Headhunter said...

Actually, Tress, a friend of mine's kids were stopped in a similar situation and threatened with a knife unless they handed over their mobile phones. The police actually tracked the culprit down and my friend went down to the kid's house to complain to the father, the father said that he would pay for the mobile, but he never actually did.

Since then the same kids have been stopped another couple of times and had their mobiles/money nicked by other kids. Child/teen on child/teen crime is increasingly prevalent it seems, they have now held up at knifepoint 3 or 4 times in the past year or so.

Anonymous said...

Tressiliana are you on of those parents that let your kids swear at you?

Headhunter said...

I doubt it, Tress doesn't sound like the type of parent who gets fried chicken in a bucket for dinner for the kids and kits them out in Asda tracksuits

Anonymous said...

What a blinkered world you live in...

Anonymous said...

Indeed. A little KFC in moderation can be a treat for any family...

Dragon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tressilliana said...

It was on Montague Avenue.

'Tressiliana are you on of those parents that let your kids swear at you?'

No, [goody two shoes alert] we're not a family that swears much.

We're also not a family that goes to KFC or Maccy Ds. Been a long time since we last had any mung beans, though.

Anonymous said...

on the subject of police prescence - try being black and driving through brockley anytime after 11.30pm see plenty of them then - at least 4 in a van. Really caring too - they always pull u over to find out where u are coming from and where u are going, checking ur details on the system and then after 15 mins ALLOWING u to go on ur way. I really appreciate those moments.

Anonymous said...

They always take your drugs too, the bastards!

Anonymous said...

What does being black have to do with it? Have you stopped to check the ratio of white vs. black vs. yellow vs. various shades of chocolate milk being stopped?!?

I’m glad our streets are being policed at night.

And if the answer is, yes, you have done a survey than you’ll also probably also find that sadly of people in prison 25% are from ethnic minorities, compared with 9% of the general population.

And - no - I am not the Cat Man.

Headhunter said...

Are those the same blinkers that generate the "mung bean" comments, Anon?

ultra violet said...

Anon @ 13.58

What smug, odious, ignorant and patronising comments. Quite an achievement, really.

Anonymous said...

There's nothing wrong with Asda clothing Headhunter anyone who suggests that there is, is rather blinkered, capisce?

Headhunter said...

Nothing wrong with mung beans either, they're v tasty and healthy, especially when they're organic, vous comprenez?

Anonymous said...

I never said there was. I'm not the one making facile sterotypes on people's ability to bring up their kids based on what shops they get their kid's clothes from or what food they provide.

Anonymous said...

Ultra violet - pray why? Does challenging a stereotype automatically make me "smug, odious, ignorant and patronising"?

P.S. In the anonymous world of blog land I'm black!

Headhunter said...

Yep and I'm not the one making "facile sterotypes" about people who eat mung beans and live in the conservation area. Call it quits?

ultra-violet said...

In your first paragraph you tell the (presumably black) person who complained about police hassle that they are imagining any racial aspect to this. Patronising and smug. Also totally lacking in empathy. Assume for a moment that he or she isn't imagining the racial bias and put yourself in their shoes. How pissed off would you be (a) with the police and (b) by your message?

Then in your third paragraph you tell the person that if they aren't imagining it, it's just tough luck - the price you pay for being foolish enough to be born non-white, presumably.

Anonymous said...

...amoral and completely lacking in empathy...

"Jill said...

When is the bag lady opposite due to die so that the ramshackle wreck next door to the newsagents can be sorted?"

Jill's probably an upstanding member of the community too.

Anonymous said...

Ultra violet you got me all wrong.

In first para I'm questioning assumption that police only stop black people - is this really true - don't think so! I've seen police stopping cars / people from all backgrounds. If I’m stopped by the police I would assume it is because they want to question me for a driving offence or acting strangely whilst driving – not because of my skin colour.

Secondly, if it is true that police stop more black people maybe that is because statistics show that sadly more crimes are committed by "ethnic minorities" and lead police to suspect something is up.

And, yes, I have been in those shoes and it’s not comfortable but I hate it when people hide behind their skin colour when they feel they are being hard done by. An injustice is an injustice whether white or black. If you are stopped for the wrong reasons so be it. If you feel victimised take note and put in an official complaint. But don’t assume every time you are stopped (or criticised) it’s automatically because of the colour of your skin / ethnic background.

ultra-violet said...

Anon - I wish I had your faith in the fairness of the policing system and the way any complaints would be dealt with. I think there is a significant amount of racism in the police force, so I can't agree with you, but I appreciate you explaining your position more clearly.

I agree that sometimes people attribute criticism to racism without any basis whatsoever - but I wouldn't include the comments that started this debate in that category.

Anonymous said...

I would - I think it's just one of those things you have to accept.

Anonymous said...

Ultra V - the police aren't institutionally racist anymore, don't you read the news. Let's just accept the fact that they may, just possibly, be targeting crime.

Recently in Tokyo the police have been 'stop and searching' non-asian people as they leave clubs. Seems like they catch quite a few drug dealers that way. Yes some white people complain, but the police dont want to waste resources pull over those not likely to commit the crime.

It is not racist to target for crime. Why pull over a group of white middel class ladies in a car? Or stop and search tourists? Insurance companies profile risk and put extra premiums on certain groups. The police are also making some assumptions on fact, not colour

=A new Anon=

Anonymous said...

The only time I ever see police in Brockers is either:

1) Mounted ploice trekking down Tressillian Road
2) Pullling up their cars on double yellows, blind corners to go to a) the chinese takeway, b) the fish and chip shop, or c) the sandwich shop near the train bridge.

In fact I reckon if you need to the police you should just head for a local takeway establishment and you'll find a couple lounging around.

Ultra-Violet said...

(Smacks head) Of course! I'd forgotten they'd eradicated racism from the police. How embarrassing....

I do take the points made. I just don't think it's justifiable to tell someone who believes they've been the victim of racism that they're wrong, without knowing the facts.

Anonymous said...

Nor should you assume they're telling copper-bottomed truth just because the topic is one on race.

Ultra-Violet said...

No, but going back to the origins of this discussion, why would someone come on this blog anonymously and lie about their experiences? If they have an honest and not patently unreasonable perception that they've been victimised, shouldn't that be respected rather than rubbished?

Anonymous said...

I don't think you need to respect all perceptions, no.

And I wasn't accusing them of lying about being searched, but perhaps misguiden over it being a racist rather than a demographically-motivated move.

Ali G has a lot to answer for said...

But it's not just about being stopped, it's the attendant attitude you get. Which is the assumption that you have done something wrong (because apparently the statistics say so). So it's not necessarily even "would I be stopped if I looked different?" but more "would I be treated differently, if I looked different?".

Ultra-Violet said...

And what criteria do you use to judge the validity of their perceptions? I'm genuinely interested.

Bearded Liberal said...

Called me old fashioned, but if I'm stopped I'd like to think it's because the police have reason to believe that I've got something to do with it or some evidence to offer. Stopping me because I share an ethnic group is not good enough. Mind you they DO all look the same.

max said...

Yes, you DO look all the same.

Sunday Blues said...

Anon: "to all who blame poverty:

we are the richest per capita we have ever been."

That's all very well but you can find a statistic to back up whatever point of view you wish to put forward.
23% of children in London live in households in which nobody has a job.

Anonymous said...

Despite the reasons that contributed to this girl and her boyfriend/friends behaviour; a young boy was murdered and they didn't show any remorse and there was plenty of evidence to prove what they did. As far as i am concerned they don't deserve to have a life and should spend the rest of their days on an alcatraz type prison away from the rest of us...

anon said...

Well it's all so easy to condemn people that have done wrong. But if that self same girl came up to you to for help, you'd turn away.

And what about the kids that quietly beaver away, getting gcse's, a levels, where's the praise for them. There's no "drama" nothing to discuss, so they're ignored.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for telling us all what we'd do. That's some psychic power you've got there!

anon said...

Well what would you do? Honestly? what would you do?

Anonymous said...

Er, I'd help her. Seems simple enough to me.

anon said...

Well let's hope so. Let's hope that you help people with the same conviction that you'd use to condemn them.

Anonymous said...

Ok! Next time I do a good deed I'll be sure to let you know - seeing as you're clearly some kind of moral compass for us all.

anon said...

Yes please you do that.
As for moral compass, I hope you realise by condemning people for doing wrong you're being just as 'moralising' as you think I am.

Brockley Nick said...

If you can't condemn someone for committing murder without being accused of "moralising", that's moral equivalence of the silliest kind.

Anonymous said...

I haven't actually condemned anybody - you might be confusing me with another Anonymous*
I just objected to your lecturing and sanctimonious manner in telling people you've never met what they'd do in a certain situation.

*Although if you can't condemn somebody for murder then I'm not sure when you can. Would you just let them off with a warning then?

Anonymous said...

Jinx!

anon said...

Let's get this clear.


The court has given the verdict. What those that teenage gang, did was unacceptable and no doubt when the sentence is passed they'll be facing a good while in prison. That's it, that is society's comment on it.

Additional comment especially like this "As far as i am concerned they don't deserve to have a life and should spend the rest of their days on an alcatraz type prison away from the rest of us..." is moralising. It's for the judge who's sat through the trial to pass verdict.

Any moral equivalence in the exchange between my comments and the anonymous('es) are drawn not between the murder and the condemnation. But between my supposed moralising; supposed because all I'm doing is reflecting that person's tone back to them by challenging this person with such a superior attitude to see whether this person is so 'morally good' in their everyday life.

They claim that they are...good. If want to talk superior then BE superior through your actions.

M said...

Right, has everybody got this clear then?

Firstly, nobody has the right to offer an opinion on this murder because if it's a negative one and they haven't sat through the trial itself then it's 'moralising'.

And secondly, if we do offer an opinion, we have to prove to Anon that we are 'morally good'* or it doesn't count.

*I think this is more 'morally good' than a convicted murderer so we should all be on fairly safe ground there.

As you were.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Take a look at Guvna Bs page. Hes an upcoming gospel/christian rapper!

lets promote the positive young people instead of the negative.

http://www.myspace.com/guvnab

SAMUEL JOSEPH samjoseph58@yahoo.co.uk said...

I need to find the mother of Samantha Joseph who kidnapped her and took her from Trinidad,

Sheila Ramjit took Samantha with her to London so that she could have rights to stay in UK

She went up to London from Trinidad in 2001 purchased an NI number from Wellete who worked in an African shop and the rst is history

Samantha was there so she could never be deported and if she is in Jail she would never be deported from UK

So I am appealing the great British public:

Help me find Sheila Ramjit, May Ramjit, Sheila Singh any of these akas

She is hiding out and the NI was in someone else's name

so she may be difficult to find

She makes roti- a bread eaten with curries, she cleans

and she has a British Police Officer BOYFRIEND

If she is at this pub contact me or the Trinidad and Tobago Police as she is wanted for inquiry for a murder which occurred in trinidad in 2000

Anonymous said...

Sheila May Ramjit the illegal Trinidadian mother of Samantha Joseph is allowed to stay in the UK as Samantha is in jail..she is obstructing the visitation of Professor Samuel Joseph of Trinidad to the Prison to see Samantha..this is part of the rehabilitation process. Sheila May also sells the artwork Samantha does and lives on this money. She is constantly moved by the authorities to safe areas because the gang looks for her. Samantha Joseph is Trinidadian she needs to be in prison in Trinidad and her mother needs to be deported she is is a sponger of UK taxpayers. Sheila May recently sent for her son Samuel Joseph and Wendy her daughter in law and their children and now they are living here courtesy the UK taxpayers....parenting that SHEILA MAY RAMJIT OF TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO has a boy in a grave and other boys behind bars.....the consequence of Sheila's bad parenting......she get to live the life in London along with her son and his family..all illegally at that...UK taxpayers expense

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