There's always somone worse off than you

The handful of hardcore East London Line refusniks who haunt Brockley Central may be interested to read this article from the Sussex Courier. The East London Line critics were always telling us that our overland train services were being sacrificed for the benefit of the landed gentry who commute in to London from the home counties. And yet here we are, with Sussex commuters irate that the urban elite are messing up their services to accommodate the East London Line:

Commuters have slated timetable changes at Southern trains which have left passengers fighting for elbow room on the Uckfield to London line. Rail users from Crowborough, Eridge and Buxted are livid with the company's new schedule...

They are unimpressed with Southern's explanation for the change, that the newly extended East London line has being given priority.

47 comments:

Anonymous said...

Surely these trains are on the inside track anyway by the time they get to Norwood Junction so why would they be affected by ELL on the outside line?

Anonymous said...

Waheey!!!!!

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

There may be cutbacks to the Uxbridge to London line for other reasons and it's just a coincidence that this happened at the same time as the ELL's arrival.


"They are unimpressed with Southern's explanation for the change, that the newly extended East London line has being given priority."

I'd like the original article to go into more detail. How does the Overgrounds arrival prevent Southern increasing the number of carriages for the second connecting train from 4 carriages, which seems to be the source of the most bitter complaints; health & safety breaching (according to the complainants) overcrowding.?

Oaksys said...

If people out in the burbs paid the same rail travel rate per mile as the people from Brockley to central London I'd have some sympathy. As it is the people living in greater London subsidise the travel of the out of townies.

Andy Endwell said...

Well they have my sympathy - another bunch of poor sods who have been raped by the wretched East London line takeover - their services have been affected by Southern's reduction in capacity into London bridge owing to the overcrowding of the fast line congestion caused by the parasitic ELL!!

Anonymous said...

The ELL rules. Fact. End of discussion.

Anonymous said...

It's made my life easier, I've now got an alternaive way into work. The southern service is less crowded and I've got a new area of London that's far easier to get too. I stand by my opinion, for MOST people the net change is positive. On our overcrowded infastructure that's what you get when you introduce a new service. ELL = win

Brockley Nick said...

Since the ELL began, I have not once had to wait more than 5 minutes at Brockley Station for a train in the morning, I have not once had to stand with my face in someone's armpit due to train overcrowding and I have not once had to wait more than 10 minutes for a train back in the evening.

All of these phenomena were common place in the bad old days and all are now practically a thing of the past. I have also saved a few quid because I can get to work in Victoria for the price of a single tube fare, rather than a travelcard...

ELL = WIN.

The Cat Man said...

I can use two routes to work now - either get off at london Bridge or a Wapping and have a short walk from either to St Katherines Docks.

I also love Hoxton, and its good to have a busy hub like shortditch within a few mins away.

ELL = WIN.

Anonymous said...

If only intending to use the ELL, is it now not worthwhile getting a yearly travelcard?

If this is the case, what's the best alternative?

Headhunter said...

But it's true that our services were cut due to trains coming in from outside London. Southeastern or Southern (same company essentially) said as much with the introduction of the new Javelin services, which have since been cut back due to lack of interest.

I have to say though, Southern trains have been more frequently late since the introduction of the ELL. I barely used the train and I've already experienced hold ups at both London Bridge and Brockley.

Brockley Nick said...

You barely used the train before the ELL, you've barely used it since it was introduced and yet you say with confidence that:

"Southern trains have been more frequently late since the introduction of the ELL."

Good to see you're applying your traditional statistical rigour to your statements of 'fact'.

Headhunter said...

OK, Oh pedantic one, "in my limited and humble experience" Southern trains have been more frequently late since the introduction of the ELL. Better now?!

Monkeyboy said...

I've used the train/ELL every day since the introduction and have noticed no significant difference, the ELL was slow once because of a problem on a Southern train - oh the irony. I've even got to work earlier a couple of times. In fact I usually wait for an ELL specifically so as to avoid the LB scrum. Of course let's not forget the odd weekend trip into the East End which despite some of the faniciful claims has some great things to do.

HH, your 'bloke down the pub said..' arguments are increasingly desperate.

For me it's a defo ELL=WIN

Monkeyboy said...

I've used the train/ELL every day since the introduction and have noticed no significant difference, the ELL was slow once because of a problem on a Southern train - oh the irony. I've even got to work earlier a couple of times. In fact I usually wait for an ELL specifically so as to avoid the LB scrum. Of course let's not forget the odd weekend trip into the East End which despite some of the faniciful claims has some great things to do.

HH, your 'bloke down the pub said..' arguments are increasingly desperate.

For me it's a defo ELL=WIN

Brockley Nick said...

It's not really pedantry to insist that there's a big difference between saying "I used the train once recently and it was late" and "the train service has got a lot worse."

Now, the latter statement may be true and it wouldn't be surprising if this was indeed the case in the first weeks of the ELL's operation, but you are not in a position to make that claim.

Andy Endwell said...

"There's always somone worse off than you"

Seems to me that one interesting by product of the new ELL is a scism, between those of us who use the direct London Bridge Service which is considerably cheaper than the same route via ELL and the ELL devotees, who clearly could not care less about anyone who has not welcomed the ELL and its resulting injustices. A far cry from the protesting we did earlier in the year. Sad really.

Brockley Nick said...

I think everyone has acknowledged ad nauseum that the cut in train services outside morning rush hour is bad - this site has helped campaign against them - but a) they are not due to the ELL and b) on balance, the ELL is a massive benefit. It's the naysayers who refuse to put things in to perspective, it seems to me.

Your morning journey to London Bridge is completely unaffected, except that it is less crowded than it once was. Your evening return is slightly less good than it once was. Keep up the campaigning with Southern to get the old service level reinstated, but don't try and pretend that there aren't huge benefits from the ELL.

Anonymous said...

I'd say you need a good three months' experience before you can draw meaningful conclusions on the standard of service. In that period your average commuter will make over 100 trips and be in a position to form a representative impression. Using the word 'frequently' if you only use a service occasionally is meaningless and unhelpful.

Headhunter said...

I have to say that just about everything I say here is my opinion so I don't always write "in my experience" or "in my opinion" before every statement.

Brockley Central is essentially a "bloke down the pub" chat, it's not a court case...

Southern or Southeastern did actually state at one point, that they had to reduce trains from Brockley because of the new Javelin trains.

My other point about Southern trains being late is down to my experience over the past couple of weeks catching off peak Southern trains. In my experience, when I have caught Southern Trains since the introduction of the ELL, they have been delayed.

To be honest, they weren't delayed significantly, it was just something I wanted to remark on.

Andy Endwell said...

Nick - I dont dissagree with your point of view, but I do have a great deal of sympathy with those fellow commuters south of Croydon and a fear that London Bridge Stopping services will get worse a Southern try to wriggle around in the mire of the ELL's rebirth. There are mounting ugly rumours that Southern's next target is the removal of the London Bridge Vic service via Crystal Palace for example.

Anonymous said...

I also now wait for an ELL train to avoid the LB Scrum. (i go west on the jubilee line) The other day I got the first train to arrive at Brockley which was a southern train and I'd forgotten how hideous LB was in morning.

My view now is that you can throw away any arguments about journey times (they're negligable either way anyway)or affects on train cuts- I'll take the ELL every time now based on the fact that its a far more comfortable journey in so many respects.

ELL = WIN

The Cat Man said...

Well, given the choice I'd say i have to welcome less trains to London bridge but make those that survive direct trains to charing cross in the west end. For me, there isn't alot of benefit from either having to change at London bridge or canada water to get to soho for example

Anonymous said...

I wonder how long it would take to get the ELL to Whitechapel and then the district line to embankment for Charing Cross?

Anonymous said...

Changing trains is an intelectual challenge for some.

Anonymous said...

Changing trains is an intelectual challenge for some.

Andy Endwell said...

Even the Klu Klux Clan's hats have points - which is more than can be said for your remarks!

Headhunter said...

May be a silly question but it's not possible to make a change to the Central Line from the ELL is it? You can't, for example, get off at Shoreditch HS, walk to Liverpool St and then take the Central Line as part of a single journey, can you?

Tamsin said...

@ Nick and the yeay-sayers. I don't think anyone is contending the the ELL is not a great improvement for most people along the route - we just don't buy into the publicity hype that it is an improvment for everyone, we are angered by the excuses of the privately and foreign owned Govia subsidiaries (Southern and South-eastern) who use these improvements brought about by the ELL as an excuse or distraction ploy to introduce a poorer service, and annoyed by the insult to the collective and individual intelligence of the travelling public implicit in the type of publicity that talks of "new roomier carriages" when the external dimensions are the same and so what they actually mean is fewer seats.

Tamsin said...

Spelling also seems to be an intellectual challenge.
(Quick check to see how much glazing there is in my own house - usually only typos ...)
Also when changing trains means changing services there are, I think, cost implications. Not something I have tried to get my head around yet, life's too short.

drakefell debaser said...

Tamsin, casting my mind back to the old ELL carriages I don't recall them being very large or offering a great number of seats or standing room. What was different is that at New Cross you used to be at the start of the line so getting a seat was easier.

I haven't counted the seats on the new ELL carriages but I reckon more people can be seated now than in the past. Add to the fact that there is lots more standing space I think the promise to deliver more room is a delivered one.

drakefell debaser said...

Just a thought, the metropolitan lines have the same / simialr type of carriage as the old ELL so all we need to do is find out the seats on those and compare to what the ELL has.

Monkeyboy, is this information available without physically counting the seats?

Ed said...

Southern trains were late so often it would be hard for them to have gotten any worse.

Best time Brockley station to Canary Wharf station is 12 minutes so far!

ELL = WIN

Tommo said...

@ drakefell

The old ELL line trains were exactly the same type as they use on the Metropolitan line. Just they were half the length at only 4 carriages.

According to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_A60_and_A62_Stock

each Met line train has 448 seats, therefore each old ELL train had roughly 220 seats.

This compares with around 120 seats in each new ELL train (around 30 in each carriage)

Think we can safely say there's more room in the new trains but far fewer seats.

@ Headhunter

That particular interchange isn't classed as a single journey I'm afraid.

I'll take my boring TfL hat off now. Sorry people.

HappyBrockers said...

It gives us more choice and one can't complain about having more choice.

ELL= Win.

drakefell debaser said...

Thanks Tommo, that clears it up nicely.

I must stop using the ELL for trips to pubs as I thought there were a lot more than 30 seats.

Mb said...

I can get you drawings, carriage numbers, dimensions.... but i may be acused of being a train spotter.

Personally If fewer seats mean more capacity on the short trains then that's a win for most journeys that tend to be short anyway. Another WIN in my book.

Tamsin said...

It's just the double-speak - say greater capacity, if that is what you mean, don't say "roomier" when the overall size is the same.

travel question... said...

Don't know if Tommo or any other TfL experts might be able to answer this question:

We regularly do a trip to Colchester (train from Liverpool St) so the Overground is great - change at Shoreditch High St and walk to L'pool St. However, we are getting scratched heads and long discussions at the Shoreditch ticket barriers each time. They are 'any route' tickets - is this a legitimate route for us to take? If you don't know, do you know where we might be able to find out? Thanks!

Mb said...

OK, greater capacity.

ELL=WIN (again)

Tommo said...

@ Travel Question

Tisn't allowed I'm afraid because you're making the trip as two separate journeys. Shoreditch High St to Liv St isn't an interchange you see.

Glad to see they're applying a bit of common sense and giving you the benefit of the doubt though.

Tamsin said...

But the greater capacity is fewer seats so you are standing even when the trains are relatively empty when before, with more seats you wouldn't have to.

But I acknowledge the ride is smooth and journey times quick so not really a mega-issue.

Monkeyboy said...

I can smell victory, if only Israel had lobyists like us.

Travel questioner said...

Thanks Tommo. If only we could rely on common sense prevailing indefinitely! I guess that what we are supposed to do is change at Whitechapel and get the tube, but it's a bit of a faff.

M said...

They should have had fold down seats that retract into the floor during rush hours and are available the rest of the day. Simple!

Anonymous said...

yes, and wings too so that they can fly over any leaves on the track.

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