Homes and Property on Brockley
How many articles about a location does it take before that place stops being undiscovered? In Brockley's case, it tends towards infinity.
After last week's examination of locations along the East London Line, including Brockley, by the Evening Standard, the Homes & Property section tonight introduced its readers to an "area to watch" called Brockley among the "secret suburbs".
Brockley, it is said, is 'well located', 'attractively priced' and 'an area on the up', which is all very welcome and very true. We particularly enjoy the fact that the Standard has adopted our policy of calling Telegraph Hill Brockley too.
88 comments:
I hope they didn't visit Hilly Fields.
Today I watched as a posse of youth strutted the park, fifteen of them originally. They began a staged number of mock violent attacks on each other, the leader 'Leon' showing them how to disable a 'victim' in the most disgusting manner.
This went on for half an hour.
Eventually a girl amongst them screamed and cursed like a banshee at this Leon. And it got worse...
Into an 'hour' later, after more screaming and effing and C@*&ing - all in earshot of the childrens' playground - the beef showed up.
These were much older individuals, some related to Leon and presumably both from opposing estates. Utter anarchy has been caused by peacock Leon, a teenager in search of a reputation. (Apparently Leon and his gang cause this type of shit on a weekly basis at Hilly Fields.)
'Why doesn't someone call the police,' one woman asked me as she clutched her mobile.
Why indeed?
So has any sort of crime been committed? Sounds to me like a bunch of boisterous teenagers messing around?
Swearing and play fighting sounds like a fairly normal activity for any teenager, no?
I was running in the park. Agree it looked like a lot of adolescent testosterone but at one point looked like it was getting nasty. Difficult to tell and I can imagine the kids in the playground being a little alarmed. There were a couple of adults who looked like they new the kids, not sure they were helping much. The old bill asking them to calm it may of helped if done carefully.
Well hopefully vicious teen gangs roaming the parks will keep house prices low.
Try telling that to the children.
It was a bit more than 'adolescent testosterone'. Dogs marking the spot more like.
i thought the police were for dealing with crime. What was the CRIME
As a Hillian I am uneasy at Nick attempts to claim Telegraph Hill as part of Greater Brockley.
We are happy to enjoy an entente cordiale with our Brockley neighbours but we will resist annexation.
Yes you have some smart delis, a few cafes and trains to nowhere special every 2 mins. But you also have traffic delays, parking problems and gun-crime.
No, we in Telegraph Hill - the western bit at least - have pretensions to be a part of Dulwich rather than Brockley.
I believe Hilly Fields is it a bit of a no go area after dusk,never mind during the day.
Noticed for first time tonight that in the key at the bottom of the new TfL maps, where it explains how a station is marked, the station chosen ABOVE ALL OTHERS, including all tube stops, to illustrate as an example is: Brockley! So we have definitely arrived.
No go area? I've been running there for eight year at all hours and not been close to a problem. Apart from some over entusiastic dogging
Telegraph Hill is in New Cross isn't it?
I'm starting work near farringdon in a few weeks so the ELL 'goes somewhere' it goes where me and a few hundread professional rail building types will be working.
Wrong, as usual.
Lou Baker is the online equivalent of a cat sharpening its claws on a black board.
Lou Baker sounds rather pompous. Isn't Telegraph Hill part of Brockley North on the old deeds? More 'dull' than Dulwich.
We are in Surrey - Brockley is Kent (and there are the border posts to prove it). The article just fancied a library picture of the Telegraph Hill Park rather than sending someone out to encounter the gangs in Hilly Fields. It also seems to know something we don't - the Reservoir development is 9 house rather than 12 - unless it is suddenly going to morph in the planning stage.
We're New Cross (Gate) really, but it is quite endearing that Nick should wish to annex us into Brockley.
'Far East Dulwich' is laughable.
Well, as ever, there are lots of different definitions of Telegraph Hill and they overlap with Brockley.
Telegraph Hill parks have a New Cross postcode and the north side of TH is definitely closer to New Cross Gate than Brockley station but many of the streets in "Telegraph Hill" are SE4 and Telegraph Hill ward stretches right down in to what people call West Brockley.
All these definitions are plastic and as far as I am concerned, if it's only five mins walk from Brockley station, it's Brockley.
@Lou - There is really is no such area as "Telegraph Hill", any more than there is "Hilly Fields". You're just a subset of something else. So you can choose - do you want to be part of Brockley, New Cross, Nunhead or Peckham?
I thought (old) Brockley was where Crofton Park is now, and the Conservation Area and Telegraph Hill were in greater Deptford
Let the good burghers of Deptford Central claim that. This is Brockley Central and we have planted our flags all over the place.
Still, it is a mark of how much coverage Brockley has got in the property press of late that everyone's a lot less excited about this reference than on previous occasions.
PS - completely agree Runner, I have often walked through Hilly Fields at night and it's lovely. Hoodlums can't be arsed to hang around in parks at night. Much more fun to loiter on streets. One admittedly unpleasant-sounding incident doesn't make a no-go zone.
Is Good Burgers of Depford Central another fast food joint opening soon?
I bet if somebody did get mugged on Hilly Fields,the Police would ask why you needed to go there after dark.I know people will say because you should be able to,and rightly so,but in this day and age I'm afraid its at your own risk.
Is Leon part of the local dogging scene?
Don't know, ask him next time you're round the back of the toilet block with your tweeds around your ankles. I've not seen him at the tuesday cross dogging class?
Thanks. Was your final sentence a question?
I have to Peckham recently, and was impressed by how the roads off the main shopping area have changed. Lots of newly painted houses, very cleaned streets and car parking zone.
5 years ago was my last visit to Peckham and it was certainly more run down than Brockley.
So why is Peckham improving a lot faster than Brockley??
Both are under Labour, but Southwark has gone a massive regeneration started along the river and now obvioulsy sporeading south.
In Lewisham we struggle to get a car parking zone implemented even when the evidence is clear that the area around the station of Brockley is a parking mess.
Is it perhaps because Lewisham has an old fart that struggles to keep up with times as a Mayor?
I would like to know the opinion of the other bloggers including those vampire benefit suckers that voted him in once again and that continue to refer to the middle class that pays their benefit as an an annoying bunch.
Don't know, I'll check with the BDS grammar department. He's also the wet wipe monitor so may take a while to get an answer.
By the way, Colin asked if he play "wife" next time.
There are arseholes everywhere. Whether oiks or welcoming doggers.
I somehow doubt that BC has many "benefit vampire suckers" on it's books. We will have less government going forward, the private sector will rush in to fill the void. Did you not get the memo?
Lou - as a fellow Western TH-ite, I think of myself as Nunhead, with its two butchers, fishmongers, bakers and ever expanding Deli scene. And our own parking problems, random traffic re-directions and burglary.
I reckon the reason Peckham has changed more than Brockley is two fold.
1. Its closer into town and nearer smarter areas so has benefited from the spread of the middle classes who can't now afford Kennington, East Dulwich etc.
2. Thanks to the influx of 'arty' types from Shoreditch, it now has a new found coolness (the pop up bar for example), which again attracts the middle classes who have the money to improve the look of properties that were previously rundown.
The reason Peckham has changed is the same reason everywhere has changed. House prices are too high, so people with jobs are forced to live in places they would previously have snubbed.
dog on
The Arty types probably come from Camberwell which has an Art College. don'tya know.
The notion of a middle class retreat from Kennington to Peckam is an interesting one. They must be well and truly credit crunched.
@THNick
Agreed. The western end of Telegraph Hill definitely has more in common with Nunhead. It's our closest station and there are some good shops there. But once you're in Nunhead it's only a few mins down the road to Peckham Rye and East Dulwich. I associate with those areas much more than with Brockley.
I guess if you live the other end of the Hill Brockley is more convenient - and if you live at the bottom of Jerningham you're unquestionably - and unfortunately - in New Cross.
Incidentally, I've always thought it would be rather nice for New Cross Gate to renamed Hatcham - its traditional name. It sounds much less crap.
@monkeyboy
If you're working in Farringdon and are planning to take the East London Line there you'll be disappointed, it doesn't go there. Perhaps you can ask your employer to relocated to the mightily useful Haggerston instead.
Yes, I'll change at white chapel, 37 mins. I'll mark up a map for you. Ever heard the phrase "when the facts change, I change my opinion" ? ELL=WIN
Peckham is a big place, I think you are basically talking about one or two streets nearest East Dulwich.
PS - Lou, I spend more time in Greenwich than St Johns. It doesn't mean Greenwich is part of Brockley. Yet.
@nick
At the rate your empire is expanding I would expect you to have gobbled up Greenwich and to be on to the Isle of Dogs by Christmas.
@monkeyboy
Crofton Park to Farringdon - direct trains, 25 mins. I've just saved you 24 mins per day, 2 hours per week, 4.5 days per year commuting time. Damn I'm good.
I think you've forgotten to take in to account the time it takes to get from north Brockley to Crofton Park Station - 10-20 mins depending on mode of transport. And the inevitable waiting time for low-frequency trains to and from CP.
Let's call that 50 mins each way, to be on the safe side.
You've just cost MB 26 mins a day, etc, etc
Lou, farringdon to kings cross is even quicker. I don't live in kings cross.
I change trains..... Jesus, this is like teaching particle physics to a cat.
Although it's not on topic..
I commute to farringdon and either go from nunhead (20mins direct) or ELL from brockley (if you time it right 30/35mins), the ELL route is so much better than the old LB/northern/change at moorgate route, although that is slightly quicker it is so unpleasant. Although the thameslink from crofton park/nunhead is quick and you can often get a seat if I'm not over that way then the ELL route works well. Although I find it annoying that the hammersmith & city is less frequent than the ELL!
On topic...
I thought the article was nice, it is a bit of an artifical distinction between brockley/telegraph hill, I enjoy both parts and make use of amenities in both
And every 24 minutes? Why wouldn't want to wait that long?
If you hear something it will be the wheels falling of lou's argument.
If Crofton Park is too far go from Nunhead. Used to work near Smithfield and commuted into Holborn Viaduct (when there was a Holborn Viaduct station to commute to. Quite a nice journey.
Do you go by 17th C. parish - in which case Telegraph Hill is St. Paul's Deptford (and there is a parish boundary marker with Camberwell as the next one in on the top of One Tree Hill). Or by post-code - in which case, yes, SE14 is New Cross however much you might try to disguise your address. Or by Ward - in which case since the last boundary change we have our own identity. Or by conservatin area - again our own identity.
Oh jesus, the walk to Nunhead is just as far from North Brockley. Same arguments apply...
But it depends where in Greater Brockley you are - and is potentially a pleasanter walk - not along a main road - and we are encouraged to do 30+ minutes of reasonable exercise a day - and the lag time between trains doesn't matter because with a walk you can time it to the minute and the old fashioned trains do most of the time stick to their time-table.
If you are very close to a station, of course, you can time your walk almost to the second. My sister used to live in Westbourne Terrace and come home to Gloucestershire for the weekends. She used to cut things so fine that when the Kemble train was re-platformed she would miss it!
Yes, yes, these arguments that a brisk walk five miles never hurt anyone are always trotted out by people who have essentially lost the argument as to why the ELL is fundamentally a useful thing.
They are the last refuge of the scoundrel ;)
If people want a 30 min walk, that's up to them, but it is irrelevant to the question as to which is the quicker way for Monkeyboy to get to work, which is what is being discussed.
He may be a chimp, but please give the man some credit for being able to calculate his most efficient journey.
Besides, I have seen the man in the flesh and he is already in the peak of physical condition, with the calves of Hugh, the buttocks of Headhunter and the virility of the Brockley Dogging Society.
He needs no lectures on exercise from someone who admits to regularly driving to work ;)
There are about three bars / cafes containing a tiny nucleaus of middle-class types behind Peckahm High St - I know, I've seen 'em. As Nick said, it's the bit practically in East Dulwich. There may be other such people in Peckham but I think they must barricade themselves in their homes; I never see them.
Erm, nucleus.
Meawhile at CERN the laboratory cat has discovered the God Particle so anything is possible.
I thought it was only Estate Agents who are wont to develop their own peculiar geography; whereby the perimeter of nicer parts of London are extended into areas that are normally thought to be crime ridden war zones.
Here we seem to have a Timeout variant of the same thing. In this case the relaunching of Peckham as an artsy bohemian hangout with undiscovered gems hidden for the discerning middle class buyer.
I am sure there is some kind of dodgy payola conspiracy at work. Journalists and PR types and their impoverished arty chums in league with property developers. Articles lauding areas of dismal neglect as the next new trendy area that is bound to up and come.....
There is a cynical profit motive at bottom of all of this, to be sure.
OK - sorry - I somehow visualised him as living on the West Side - and I didn't mean to lecture...
It's just waiting time for low frequency trains is not a relevant factor. (Although I suppose it might be over a year - it is an absolute b****r when they're cancelled, as I found to be the downside when commuting against the rush hour to Bromley.)
Tamsin - there still is a Holborn viaduct station really, City Thameslink has an entrance on the viaduct.
Peckham anon - you presumably mean the area around Bellenden road. That's East Dulwich overspill really. Unless you mean the bits south of Queen's Road and east of Peckham - that's due to the proximity of sunny Nunhead....
Low frequency trains are a factor. I want to turn up and go which just about works on the ell
Low frequency trains are a factor. I want to turn up and go which just about works on the ell
Frequency matters massively, unless you work in a job where you can leave exactly when you want every day like clockwork, you lead a life where you don't want any kind of flexibility and you live in a country where the trains run perfectly on time every day. Which none of us do.
It's like people you meet who tell you their journey to deepest Oxforshire only takes them an hour each way. What they mean is, it's theoretically possible, but virtually never achievable, relying on every stage of their journey going perfectly smoothly and being able to travel at exactly the optimal time.
Monkeyboy has the buttocks of Headhunter?
What an interesting image.
In also have a prehensile tail. Useful when trying to reach a sock that's slipped behind a radiator
Oi, leave my buttocks out of this, they were quietly minding their own business...
No Nick,
Peckham near the new stunning Library not the East Dulwich bit.
If the reason is proximity to London why Bromley High Street was tun in pedestrian shopping area.
Bromley is far, less communicated and certainly not between Greenwich and Dulwich.
Well I have to confess that I don't know that part well enough to comment about how much its changed, except that the library's not that new and obviously that development occurred because of significant public investment, rather than underlying economic trends. I haven't noticed a dramatic change, but happy to take your word for it.
I agree with your general point that Southwark seem to be a more ambitious and successfully interventionist Council than Lewisham. Maybe they have more money coming in courtesy of some of the riverside developments and businesses located there as a result of the fact that they have a good chunk of the south bank under their care.
There are three great lies Londoners tell themselves:
How well they are doing in their career
How much their property is worth
How long it takes to get into work
If they don't lie to themselves about these things they get awfully tetchy.
I think you've nailed 90% of the posts here.....the remaining 10% is made up of al fresco sex and telling cat man to shut up
I've reached the only level it's possible to reach in my career, so 40 years of stagnation await; I rent; I work from home. Do I win at internets? \o/
Not sure why introducing a parking zone and making the area more pleasent so that council tax payers are attracted to brockley would require funds. I see this as a cash generative idea rather than continuing investing millions into new high rise council house that will not produce any positive effect to the council's accounts
Do you not think a local authority should have some responsibility to house people who need help? Would tipping them onto the streets make lewisham a pleasant place to live? A "screw you, I doing fine" society is not one I want to live in.
....and making an area attractive to live in may attract people with higher salary jobs. They pay council tax, do not need so much local authority help and have disposable income to spend locally. It's a virtuous circle.
What high rise council housing are you referring to anon?
Ok, kids are not committing a crime, what about intimidating and anti social behaviour??? or would like happily leave your own kids roaming around that them and feel OK with it? Get over your self!
Ok, kids are not committing a crime, what about intimidating and anti social behaviour??? or would you happily leave your own kids roaming around that them and feel OK with it? Get over your self!
Well said, Bea.
Hmm, not sure I've noticed that much of a change in that area of Peckham but that's probably me being blinkered.
Going back to your original post (and in an attempt to start an argument) didn't Southwark used to be a Lib/Con coalition. Perhaps they're better at running things than Labour....
We don't want yuppie types and their disposable income round here, do we? We're proud of our arty neighbourhood and the interesting people who live here. Let's not spoil it by having Canary Wharf 20-somethings moving in with their trust funds!!!
How am I doing?
So has anyone got a link?
Some of the anti social behaviour I have seen would certainly qualify as common assault.
Just wanted to say the above Bea was not me! OK will log in from now on to make sure it's the "first but not only" Bea's (knees).
Well if thats the case then the police should be involved. I saw said youths and felt that they were disrupting the place and it looked as though it was close to kicking off. I'm no policeman but didn't look like something they could intervene with. The kids in the playground may have been a little alarmed.
I've run, well panted and sweated, round the park for years and have never found it a threatening place even after dark.
Well if thats the case then the police should be involved. I saw said youths and felt that they were disrupting the place and it looked as though it was close to kicking off. I'm no policeman but didn't look like something they could intervene with. The kids in the playground may have been a little alarmed.
I've run, well panted and sweated, round the park for years and have never found it a threatening place even after dark.
... and somehow I don't think that's MB either - not his style to moan about public order offences... he usually provides wittier comments (cats and physics spring to mind)
@Bea, you know you've made it on BC when people start commenting in your name.
Nope, defo me. If it was "common assault" then call the old bill. I saw about 30 noisy, sweary kids that seemed to be swearing at each other. It was unpleasant and could be scary for toddlers. I'm in two minds whether the police turning up would make it worse or better. I expect they got bored and went home. Like I say, always found hilly fields fine.
I've always wondered who that bloke was panting and sweating on Hilly Fields.
Bea - I'm now TJ(O) because of the same issue. Maybe I''l switch to someone else's moniker...like 'Brockley Nick'.
Agree about the park - safe as houses (around here).
Register as a user and no-one can take your name.
I did register TJ...they just type it in under Name/URL
But no link, so people can tell it's not you.
Flogging it again in today's online Homes and Property:
Other areas to watch
SHEPHERD'S BUSH in west London and BROCKLEY in south-east London are similarly well located, attractively priced inner-city areas on the up. Coming soon to both are new family houses by developer St James Urban Living.
In Stowe Road in Shepherd's Bush, the first phase of five-storey, four-bedroom houses will have light-filled basements, roof terraces and winter gardens.
Telegraph Hill, Brockley, is a Victorian conservation area with two parks and sweeping views of London. Local estate agents claim that the area is undervalued.
The area has quick (six-minute) rail links to London Bridge, is on the East London line and boasts highly rated Haberdashers' Aske's Hatcham College, the most over-subscribed state school in the country. A dozen new town houses are to be built on a reservoir site next to the school. Call 01372 364500.
Interesting to see that pretty much everyone still refers to it as the East London Line.
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