"I don’t know why anyone would want to go to New Cross"

The further extension of the East London Line to Highbury & Islington is due to open next year and anticipation is building on the Stroud Green Road (Finsbury Park) hyperlocal site, although there is an eerie symmetry to the debate north of the river.

Just as we spent the best part of two years arguing with Lou about why people would ever want to use a service that only went to Hackney, north Londoners are now asking why they'd want to go to his local station of New Cross.

How we envy them the joy of discovery. Ah to be a young man again and see the ELL through fresh eyes!

The Highbury & Islington extension is expected in May 2011.

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

To go to the Montague Arms for Sunday Roast...

Anonymous said...

To go to The London Particular...

or Cafe Crema...

or Goldsmiths College...

or The Thailand restaurant..

or New Cross Library...

or Sainsbury's

Tamsin said...

Deptford Creekside

The Deptford Townhall

The Telegraph Hill Festival

The (for them) weirdly reversed view of Central London from the Parks...

Their Forum is indeed looking glass land - totally familiar with digressions, references to advice on how to get rid of mice and apologies for earlier rants. And saying how they love the area they have moved to. Maybe people north of the river are human like we are after all.

Anonymous said...

Exactly,why would you want to go to New X.

Brockley Kiwi said...

The revolting students?

(sorry, poor gag. but someone was bound to do it.)

Brockley Nick said...

@Tamsin - I used to live in Finsbury Park and have friends who live there - they are similar areas to Brockley and New Cross, in some respects. Life in Brockley is gentler.

Mb said...

Well for a start you'll be able to jump on the ELL, break into an Edwardian pile in Islington and be back in time for last orders at The Barge. Nuffink wrong with that.

Matt-Z said...

They have a point about an extension to Finsbury Park. It is not outside the realms of possibility.

The problems are the flat junctions joining the Canonbury Curve, and fitting in with the service pattern on the Northern City Line and North London Line. But with decent signalling and timetabling you could achieve 4tph to Finsbury Park.

I wonder if it will be considered in a future Phase 3 developments for the ELL, along with an upgrade to a 5-car service?

patrick1971 said...

Do we know what the service pattern is going to be, before we get too excited about this?

I remember years ago when this was all being first discussed, the service pattern was going to be:

1. Highbury & Islington to New Cross

2. Dalston Junction to West Croydon

3. Dalston Junction to Crystal Palace

4. Dalston Junction to Clapham Junction (when phase 2's built)

If they're sticking with that service pattern, we won't be able to get to H&I without a change. It'll still be much easier, though.

It'd be great if they extended it up through Finsbury Park to Crouch End, Highgate, Muswell Hill and Alexandra Palace, but (a) there's a primary school built in the trackbed at Muswell Hill and (b) the NIMBYs in Crouch End who back onto the Parkland Walk would have a heart attack about turning it back into a railway, even though in the next breath they'd be complaining about too many cars and demanding a tube station in Crouch End.

Anonymous said...

Matt-z
I didn't know you knew so much about trains...

Mb said...

@patrick1971 I've got a Harry beck type map at work that shows a plan that does just that. It was never progressed obviously

Lou Baker said...

I am honoured to receive a credit in an article.

Of course I agree with them.

Unless you live there why would anyone want to go to New Cross?

(And, for the record, I live in Telegraph Hill).

This is the problem with the ELL.

It links lots of places where no-one wants to go, with lots of other places where no-one wants to go.

All the other tube lines to this too - BUT they go via somewhere where lots of people want to go.

Not so the ELL which goes via Shadwell.

Danja said...

why would anyone want to go to New Cross?

... I live in Telegraph Hill).


I hadn't thought of it like that, but it's a fair point.

mb said...

I use it every day. It's always full of people. Presumably going places they don't really want to go to.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry Lou but that's bollocks. Do you think the residents of Cockfosters and Morden see themselves as tourist destinations? Of course not. They use the tube to get to places. We can use the ELL/Overground/Tube/Whatever you want to call it to go to those places too... it doesn't seem too hard to understand.

Yes, it might not bring people to New Cross straight away, but does it need to?

Anonymous said...

Ch, ch, changes.. it's concept too far.

Lou Baker said...

No - of course it doesn't need to bring people to New Cross.

Who would ever want to come to New Cross? It's a dump. That's my point. The ELL is like a Tour de Dumps.

And, yes, you can change. But the problem with the ELL is that it doesn't have many places to change.

It has Canada Water - which the old ELL used to have. And it has Shadwell - which the old ELL used to have. And it has Whitechapel - which the old ELL used to have. There is not a single new connection.

That'll change when Highbury and Islington's added. But who's going to go all that way to get to the Victoria line?

They could have added a Central Line interchange near Shoreditch. That was too expensive. They're also not putting connections in on the ELL2.

And that's the problem with this railway. I'm all for things being done on a budget, but this one has been done on the cheap. Which is why it's no good.

PS: I took the ELL / Jubilee to London Bridge this morning. For the first time ever in the morning rush hour. Much longer route.

Anonymous said...

It goes almost all the way around London, which the ELL didn't have.

It calls at Brockley, which the ELL didn't have. This site is called Brockley Central hence the interest.

Brockley Economist said...

@ Lou,

I agree with Lou, and shared his initial scepticism about the ELL linking a load of nowheres. In the end I've found the ELL really useful, because while it doesn't go anywhere terribly useful in itself it has:

(1) increased the frequency on the line so you can turn up and go rather than have to wait for specific trains.

(2) reduced congestion on the morning trains - in my experience at least.

(3) provided me with a quick route to the west end (I work at bond st) because the change at Canada Water is so much faster than London Bridge.

Of course it would be much better if it went to a destination in and of itself. Expensive infrastructure in South London just doesn't get built (witness the Bakerloo extension touted since the war). The ELL is most certainly better than nothing...

max said...

A few weeks ago I had lunch to the Geffrye Museum in Hoxton and it was actually very nice. Very agreeable food, smiling service, quite affordable, and in a lovely modern conservatory overlooking the outdoor museum of British gardens.
It's right out of the Hoxton station on the ELL.

Headhunter said...

Yep I still agree with Lou on this. The ELL was a wonderful idea as a supplement to existing central London trains but it doesn't make up for the lost Ch X and London Br trains. I know everyone says the 2 things are not connected but I'm sceptical of that too. The ELL would have been brilliant if they had created a Central Line connection at Shoreditch perhaps.... But they didn't... The ELL has seen an increase in number of stopping trains but with fewer connections to central London, Brockley has edged closer to being a lost backwater.

Brockley Economist said...

Headhunter - the central line connection is a red Herring. Who is going to go all that way to catch the central? Where would they be going that they couldn't get to easier by some other method e.g. L-Bridge and the Northern?

On top of which, at rush hour the central is full by the time it gets to Bethnal Green anyway (I believe the central is the most congested line on the system). You would struggle to get on, and you'd be holding up all those travellers from the East End. Until the construction of Crossrail to relieve pressure on the line, it just doesn't make sense.

Anonymous said...

I go to New Cross to buy drugs and buy chicken n chips and a bit of skirt at the venue

Monkeyboy said...

I'm not sure i ever bothered catching a train to charing cross whereas use the ELL almost exclusively. Works for me and 70,000 other people a day. I could be mental though.

Anonymous said...

Indeed Max, I happened to alight at Hoxton myself the other day and there it was: the Geffryes museum of the Home : the history of the sitting room.

What is there not to love about this place. Forget the heavy burden of culture and imperial snafflings that populate the big museums. Here is something prosaic and deeply satisfying, like a nice cup of tea and a sit down after a difficult day in the West End.

The humble Overground service brings such scattered London treasures that much closer.

It is a good thing.....mind you, I am not sure we have anything equivalent to trade in return.

Monkeyboy said...

Sounds Around? If Tracy emin had created it she'd win the turner prize.

Lou Baker said...

I'm sure there are lots of gems along the ELL.

But the point is they're not the sort of places you go everyday.

You need public transport to go the sort of places you do go everyday.

And, for most of us, the ELL doesn't do that.

Mb said...

Lou, stop with the measured arguments. I prefer barley contained rage.

Right, bed time. Hangover In eight hours

Tommo said...

@ Lou.

Do the tens of thousands of daily commuters to Canary Wharf not count then? Just because the ELL doesn't go straight to your workplace it doesn't mean it's not useful for many others.

Even if you work in central London it takes around the same time to go via Canada Water and you're less likely to have a long wait for a train than you are at London Bridge.

A major factor for me in moving to the Brockley area was the opening of the ELL. It cuts a good 20 minutes off my daily commute.

Lou Baker said...

@tommo

The ELL is okay for those going to Canary Wharf. But then the old ELL was fine for that for many of us too.

But it's not as good to get to central London - which is where the majority are going the majority of the time.

Yes, the ELL is great for getting to Brick Lane. But how many of us need to go there everyday?

And, incidentally, nothing goes straight to my workplace and I cycle most of the time anyway.

Mb said...

I get off at whitechaple for Farringdon...as do hundreds. The eastern part of the city employs tens of thousands. I'm more than happy with the current mix of NR and ELL and wouldn't want the old situation. Like I say, I'm clearly deluded.

Anonymous said...

Once you've studied at Goldsmiths New Cros feels like home.

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