180 Brockley Road - consultation report

It's like the summer riots of 2011 all over again, when one issue dominated BC coverage and debate for days and Brockley Kate provided front line reporting. Ah, great days.

Here's her report from the 180 Brockley Road consultation:

- The murals will go, but there is a plan to photograph them, blow them up really big and put the pics under the railway bridge to brighten it up. I suggested that they could commission Known (the graffiti artist who created them) to re-do them under the bridge instead. There was some muttering about cost, but BXAG are interested in fundraising for it.

- The planning gain will be delivered through public realm works rather than affordable housing. In layman's terms this means that the developer will pay for works to the wider public realm around the site, rather than subsidising some of the housing units. The housing will therefore all be for market sale, I understand.

- There will be 23 residential units, of which 1 4-bed house on the northern edge of the site, 1 3-bed, 11 2-beds and 10 1-beds.

- They did not know about the fact that the southern edge of the site is used as a stage for Brockley Max each year, but said they would take that into account in their public realm planning.

- BXAG are looking at creating some vertical planting on the north and south sides of the site.

- The commercial space will be classed for planning purposes as retail (A1, I think it is) and offices; it won't be classed as suitable for fried chicken shops or bookies.
Not clear whether this rules out restaurant/bar usage too.

- The commercial space will be flexible, so it can be easily subdivided or opened up, making it appealing to a range of sizes of businesses.

The architect and developer seem very keen to hear people's views and very open to discussion, which is really positive. They do appreciate the immense regeneration opportunity which this development offers for the wider community, and therefore the site's key importance. They are very keen to get the council to appreciate that as well (as are BXAG). They would therefore appreciate help from local people in lobbying the council in support of the development.

102 comments:

BrockleyKate said...

There were fewer broken windows this time, though. And nobody set any cars on fire. Progress!

Seriously, it was good to meet some of the team behind this, they were very welcoming and keen to communicate about their plans. Also good to see Rupert from BXAG, as ever!

AliAfro said...

Thanks for the writeup Kate.

From Planning Portal:

A1 Shops - Shops, retail warehouses, hairdressers, undertakers, travel and ticket agencies, post offices (but not sorting offices), pet shops, sandwich bars, showrooms, domestic hire shops, dry cleaners, funeral directors and internet cafes.

Ez said...

The new information seems mostly positive for the development, but until better visuals are forthcoming and plans finalised there is probably no point in making snap judgements.

AliAfro said...

Did they reveal any designs? Plans or elevations?

AliAfro said...

Having read Ez'as comment I'm guessing thats a no...

Anonymous said...

No bars or restaurants ... sad times. Sounds like it's gonna end up being just another big grocery store

BrockleyKate said...

There was a 360-degree 3D model thingy on a computer, which was very useful when discussing various elements of the site. Much clearer than the pics on here.

I forgot to say anything architectural, oops. They intend to use brickwork similar to the existing conservation area bricks. There is some brickwork detailing at the top of the housing units facing onto Brockley Rd. The windows on this elevation are recessed, and some have Juliette balconies. I think the doors are set back from the street a bit. The architect said he was trying to create a modern version of the traditional Victorian terrace which is characteristic of the conservation area.

Anonymous said...

Kate an Rupert sitting in a tree...

J.R. Shakerley said...

A1 doesn't sound so bad; it's a safeguard from fast-foods and betting shops, really.
A gallery, a boutique... could be OK.

David S said...

I've just been at the presentation which was interesting. I suggest that, if people feel strongly about the proposals and they are able to, then they get down to the TM2 before they leave (supposedly 7pm) as there were four or five people presenting the plans and only a similar number of locals. Bear in mind that they're not obliged to do this public consultation at all so there may not be another one, although of course there will be regular planning process which may include another consultation when the plans are finalised.

On balance I was very much in favour. Their current plan is to go for high quality building materials and some (reasonably significant) improvements to the 'public realm' (e.g. make Coulgate St pedestrian friendly and one way, though not pedestrian). Plant some trees etc. There seems to be a a bit of a toss up between these improvements and including more affordable units, but I was of the opinion that the improvement to the streetscape and making the building higher quality was of more importance than including four affordable units.

In terms of the commercial units, it's very open ended at the moment. Could be four or five different shops / restaurants / offices or potentially one bigger one. But they were keen to have a good range of shops and not the kind of shops (bookies, more takeaways) which would impact on the value of the flats above.

Still a lot of detail to flesh out so, like I say, get down there if you can to get your opinion heard.

Anonymous said...

Bolt-on balconies. The last refuge of a scoundrel.

Anonymous said...

there'll be a tesco metro in there - there can be little doubt of that - if thats what you want then it's fine, but it's not providing a 'centre', it's just providing a small supermarket.

Never mind, Costcuter can close and a pound shop can take it's place

Anonymous said...

They should force the retail to be at least a few different shops - not just 1 (ie tesco) ... a block of flats with a tesco underneath is hardly a town centre...

I'm pretty sure jude court originally planned a few stores underneath and it became a nisa...

Dont be fooled by a consultation said...

I think it is bordering on deceitful to say that they are reflecting the conservation area terrace homes in their design.

Look at the designs! Great big blocks that are the same as every other block that is going up nowadays. There is NOTHING about the design that reflects a Victorian terrace house or any element of the conservation area/the local streets around it. Just because they SAY it's an updated version, doesn't mean it is.

The closest this design gets to a modern version of the victorian terrace is that there will be many people crammed into very small living spaces.

Nice drawings of people doing lovely things - but with the proximity to the station and a large space, a supermarket will take the space. Tesco metro (tick).

The centre of Brockley deserves so much better than this - and I hope Broc Soc will stand up against this one as forecfully as their recent fight against the school.

Ez said...

>Great big blocks that are the same as every other block that is going up nowadays/

How can you see this much detail? Were there different images at the presentation?

>The centre of Brockley deserves so much better than this

Why?

Brockley Nick said...

"They should force the retail to be at least a few different shops - not just 1 (ie tesco) ... a block of flats with a tesco underneath is hardly a town centre..."

I fully agree with this. I hope the "flexible" space plan will be changed and as I've said before, I hope the Council realises that Brockley needs more restaurant / bar space.

Brockley Nick said...

PS - I'm glad to see that my prediction that this would excite a lot of debate proved accurate.

Mb said...

It's not a design or close to one. It gives no details of materials or other specifications. It's three snapshots that show an outline and gives a sense of scale. Take a snap of a conservation area road and grey it out in the same way and you'd be very underwhelmed. It's day one, it's not gone for approval, they're consulting BEFORE the formal approval process.

Glass half full......

BrockleyKate said...

Exactly, Mb. I think the developers deserve credit for publicising their plans at this early stage and seeking feedback and collaboration from the community.

Brockley Nick said...

@Kate, they mentioned to me they'd been a little surprised by the scale of the interest in this project.

TJ said...

Why does the centre deserve better?

1) Because there is a very active community here who spend a lot of time and effort ensuring that this place does deserve better and take action to improve our surroundings

2)Because we have a large building opportunity at the entrance to our community that SHOULD be protected by conservation area guidelines. Guidelines that state that if the building isn't in keeping with its surroundings it should be of architectural merit.


Suprised when people say we can't see details - the images Nick has posted give a very good idea on what this will look like.

BrockleyKate said...

Nick - yes, while I was down there, they asked what kind of responses we were getting on the blog, and seemed quite surprised to hear about the level of interest there is! I got the impression they were pleased, though - they do appreciate the absolutely key importance of this site in Brockley's regeneration process.

Anonymous said...

I'm also against it!
I understand they have to make it financially viable at the same time I feel it's too big, out of proportion with the surroundings,not in keeping with the conservation area and unlikely to pass the test of time.We already have our fair share of those

Anonymous said...

It's 4 stories! How is that 'too big' ?!

Anonymous said...

Just popped in. About a dozen residents there. Credit to the architects for the consultation. I came away undecided though. The height of the building will really affect the feel of the area. Appreciate the business case requirements to fit in flats, and more retail space (subject to caveats above) will be good. So pluses and minuses.

Anonymous said...

It would be a shame to lose the murals.

Known is more of a musician now. He may do it though.

Anonymous said...

@TJ, you'll not get far kidding yourself with that 'deserve' nonsense and it is not usually left to the layman to interpret what is architecturally meritorious. The images provided are not representative of any final design but show where we are now in this process.

Anonymous said...

I for one would welcome a small tesco. Quality fare at a sensible price - conspicuous consumers can go elsewhere locally if they want to.

Ez said...

@Mb and BrockleyKate. Fully agree, but a bit concerned that the ME website is full of CGI even for supposedly completed developments. Anyone know how they look in real life?

@TJ Perhaps, but I still think the proposals are as yet too ill defined for such condemnation.

Mb said...

Is it actually much taller than the properties on the other side of brockley road? I'd say the low rise car lot and (very good) garage were much more of a blot. Too early for outrage.

Anonymous said...

The murals are OK but I really can't get excited about preserving them, and don't see any justification for getting the artist back to redo them.

BrockleyKate said...

It'd be really, really great to do something with that area under the bridge though. As someone said above, some of the amazing lighting installations under bridges in SE1 could be replicated...

Anonymous said...

@mb Hard to say if the design is taller than opposite. But definitely taller than the existing buildings, which do encourage a sense of openness and space.

TJ said...

Anon: well it is actually part of Broc Soc's remit - laymen everyone of them.

And it is not 'deserve' nonsense; don't get caught up in the vocab. the developers are consulting to get our opinion.

Like the idea of the lights under the bridge - surely the developers could be prevailed upon to do this as part of their investing in the area remit. I seem to remember from the Tea Factory though that this is a (very) limited fund.

Mb said...

"a sense of openness and space" just looks a little shabby t the moment. A three story development seems perfectly appropriate in an urban area and in keeping....in my view. Early days though.

Aricana said...

I could make it to the consultation at the TM2 so really appreciate the reports on BC. Although in principle I'm excited about the development it is hard to imagine from the visuals how this will fit/look alongside the exiting buildings. Could the architects provide a link to the 360 3D model?

4 or 5 commercial premises doesn't sound like very much (in terms of community gain) given the amount of disruption that the development is likely to cause. Was there any indication of how long it would take to complete the development?

Ez said...

@Mb. Agree, although one storey lower might be better, at least in part. Not too fond of the openness and space around the sorting office, either.

Anonymous said...

@mb I think the proposal is four storey. Not unreasonable for the area but will be very different to now, and I'm not sure an improvement. Agree with Ez that a storey lower would be better, but it would have a big impact on the business plan I guess.

Tressilliana said...

For those of you concerned about scale, this is how the site would look now if the pre-war cinema was still there:

http://brockleycentral.blogspot.com/2011/01/lewishams-lost-cinemas.html

Anonymous said...

"I think the developers deserve credit for publicising their plans at this early stage and seeking feedback and collaboration from the community."

complete and utter rubbish - they're only interested in easing through a bad project with the minimum possible interruption - if they need to get nasty and bring in lawyers to threaten the council they will do, but it'll be at the expense of something - like shoehorning an extra 'dwelling' or something to get a bit more profit.

trust a developer = you'll end up with shit

distrust a developer = you'll end up with shit

these people don't give a damn and you're feeding out of their hands if you trust them.

Aricana said...

Thanks Tresilliana. Although from the visuals i got the impression that it be even taller than this.

Mb said...

Angry anon, how do you develope a site withouf a developer? Magic money? Yes, they want to make money, I want to make money, most people want to make money. It's the means of obtaining good s and services. What's your alternative to investment in brockley or do you think it's just fine the way it is? Until you have a a viable alternative it just incoherent rage against "the man"

Kolp - Happy new year belatedly said...

Regarding retail space it doesn't HAVE to be a Tesco. The architect has designed flexible space that depending on the viable interest shown could offer some great opportunities for entreprenuers who understand the local market. Crafting, Homemade London the Brockley branch for example, something for kids of which there are loads around here- something to 'complement' Tea Dance for Little People, a resturant, a creative/media office space.

For all those who have ever dreamed of running a shop or who have been to a shop and had bad service and believe they could do better, this project could be your chance to put your thoughts into actions!

Tim said...

Anonymous - you seem to be implying that all developers are bad and, by extension, that there shouldn't be any development. Seems strange.

Re Tesco. What's wrong with that? Right now it is a garage. How is a Tesco any worse?

Re "Brockley deserves better: I don't see how we deserve anything different than Peckham, or New Cross, or Deptford, or Catford. Or any other random place in London.

The developers are there to make profit. There's nothing wrong with that. Will the development be same or better as what we currently have (the murals are good, but nothing special). I think so. Is anyone else proposing to build the Sagrida Familia or Taj Mahal? No.

Let's just applaud this for what it is, a step in the right direction.

NAT said...

It appears that the A1 planning designation precludes a restaurant Kolp. But don't know if that's set in stone.

Is it?

Anonymous said...

Can't quite tell from the preliminary images - is there a proposed courtyard or public space between the current buildings on Coulgate St and the new development or is that supposed to be private space for the residents?

kolp said...

The possiblity of a resturant needs clarication, at the consultation the bloke from the council, implied that some food retailing was a possiblity but explictly said they'd be issue at council levels if it was exclusively so...

Michael said...

I went down to TM2 today and thought that the developers were very welcoming and open to hearing everyone's ideas.

I have to say that the 3D image that we were able to look at and manipulate there offered far more detail than the pictures on here. Having seen that you can start to see the amount of care and thought that has gone into the design. If the developers stay true to their current vision and everyone pulls in the right direction this has a real chance of making a difference to the area.

If current plans prevail this building will be nothing like Jude Court or the Tea Factory. It will far more detailed and will be made from far superior materials. You can't see from the images on here but the brick that they are looking at (we saw sample images today) will match that of the surrounding buildings, this for me is a leap forward from some of the cheaply-clad buildings locally. There are also nice details like the curve of the building matching the curve of the Speedy Cars building.

It'll never please everyone, but I think that we should count ourselves lucky that someone is going to develop the site with some level of sensitivity. Recent local buildings wouldn't point to that being a given. Now the focus should be on staying on top of the process and lobbying for those little extras that could take everything forward and change the whole area. I love the idea for the murals under the bridge. I'd also like to get some more mosaics up around the station.

BrockleyBiker said...

I think it looks good and hopefully the finish will be of a high standard. I think it has the potential to look good.

As for those who want a Tesco well you are morons.

BrockleyBiker said...

Dammit, meant to edit that before I posted it. Having looked at streetview I really don't think four stories will be too high. We have plenty of four story buildings in Brockley already.

Fattyfattybumbum said...

We need proper restaurants, bars and a decent supermarket. We have enough galleries and cafes, I much coffee and and how many galleries does one place actually need?

Anonymous said...

Way too many NIMBY's on here. Where would we be without change and progress - Brockley needs to move on. Rather than moaning and whinging be constructive.

The designs look OK to me - much better than the proposals that were put forward for the flats opposite Jay's Budgens.

It is good to see that there are some more positive comments on here unlike the the ones on Nick's first post - before anyone had even seen the plans.

We live in 2012, the Conservation area has lots of protection anyway. 4 stories is not high - it could have been a lot worse. What did you want them to build there? A row of mock-Victorian terraces? Not very architecturally ambitious. This could be a really exciting project. I'm sure people didn't like the Laban plans when the went in and look at it now, an award winning masterpiece. I am not saything this will happen here, but you need to have some vision and move on. It could have been far more soulless than it is

Embrace change, this could be really good for Brockley.

BrockleyBiker said...

And what exactly is a 'decent' supermarket? We have Costcutter and Budgens up in Crofton Park is great.

Anonymous said...

Tesco would be pretty decent but as mentioned, Costcutter is alright, especially the offers. Quite a fan of getting in the car and going to co-op too.

BrockleBiker said...

Budgens, Costcutter, Broca Foods, the Co-op. We have plenty of supermarkets.

If you want to shop at Tesco you can take the train or bus to New X. Or you can walk to Lewisham way. Or you can drive or take the bus to Lewisham proper.

Why the hell would we want yet another one right on our doorstop? Are people really that sodding lazy?

Tamsin said...

@ Anon 9.33 The people who make the awards don't have to live opposite the "exciting" buildings they so commend. But it is very hard to be quiet without being bland and boring. Understated and soul-satisfying quality is difficult to achieve on a budget that has to make a profit despite over-inflated land values.

NAT said...

I don't know of any gallery in Brockley.

Is there one?

Anonymous said...

Only the one that's part of the Brockley Mess now ... not really a gallery ... more would be great I think, combined with retail. Maybe Tesco can open a gallery as part of the store ;-)

Brockley Nick said...

Galleries in the area:

Cube Gallery (Brockley Mess)
Lewisham Arthouse
Misty Moon (Ladywell Tavern)

They are currently building a large one at the bottom of Friendly Street in the Seager Distillery development too.

Brockley Nick said...

Also, Goldsmiths is planning a cool one:

http://bit.ly/qjgLhi

NAT said...

Yes that would be nice.

When I come to a town whose whole raison d'etre is defined by a grt big supermarket at its heart, something inside shrivels.

Brockley Nick said...

Also, Number 82 Tanners Hill, at the top near Lewisham Way (Brockley Ward):

http://bit.ly/x71I8U

NAT said...

Yes Nick. Thats in the area.

I,ve been to those.

It was claimed that Brockley was full of galleries.

It's not.

Danja said...

Tamsin, but you love Victorian architecture which is the polar opposite of 'quiet' in its magpie eclecticism!

(As do I, when built by actual Victorians)

Anonymous said...

Looks great to me. Hopefully this takes us more in the direction of Blackheath (having a few little stores), not a big tesco ... that would be really sad ...

Anonymous said...

WHO ARE THE ARCHITECTS?!
Very important! Is it Duggan Morris again? They are a good wee practice.

Anonymous said...

WHO ARE THE ARCHITECTS!

Anonymous said...

That corner needs to be better designed (make it softer/rounder), it is the first thing you see when you walk under the bridge towards the station.

NAT said...

Freemason Anons!

Brockley Nick said...

@NAT - no not, full, but not empty either. A new, dedicated one might be viable, but it would have to be professionally run. The ex-Tea Factory gallery is not a happy precedent.

The good thing about galleries is that they don't need high footfall to work, so they don't need to be in prominent high street positions, they can be off the beaten track, where the rents are cheaper. This does not seem like the best place to choose to locate a gallery.

Brockley Nick said...

"That corner needs to be better designed (make it softer/rounder), it is the first thing you see when you walk under the bridge towards the station."

Agreed. It's not quite right yet. Ideally, it could do with an architectural feature on the roof. A bit of sculpture there would be really cool.

Brockley Nick said...

"WHO ARE THE ARCHITECTS!"

Stop shouting and learn to say please.

NAT said...

Absolutely agree about that Nick, just didn't know there were any galleries in Brockley.

Turns out that there's one 'not really' one.

Brockley Nick said...

@NAT - no, it turns out that Lewisham Arthouse is a serious gallery in Brockley.

NAT said...

Lewisham way is a long way from this location and technically, sure it's Brockley.

Doesn't feel like it though.

The impression I got from FFBB's post was that the station environs were teeming to the point of tedium with art galleries.

I think that's a fair impression to take from it.

Brockley Nick said...

"Lewisham way is a long way from this location and technically, sure it's Brockley.

Doesn't feel like it though."

The Arthouse is a 10 min walk from the station and is most definitely Brockley. Whether it "feels" like Brockley depends which bit of Brockley you live in surely? Some people don't think Brockley Market feels like Brockley. For others, that stretch from Lewisham Way to Hilly Fields is their favourite part of Brockley.

"The impression I got from FFBB's post was that the station environs were teeming to the point of tedium with art galleries."

Yes, well I thought we were talking to eachother sensibly about the reality, not debating the merits of someone else's hyperbole?

Anonymous said...

Murals under the bridge need to be created/designed for the space (bespoke).

Copying the current murals might not be very effective as colours/image changes in relation to space, size, light etc.

Get a new art commission for under the bridge - maybe open it as a site-specific art competition!

Funding is an issue - but I'm sure if someone organised a fundraising gig/event which brought everyone together we would all pitch in to help and donate. Sponsored community run/gig/dance/event/street party etc... Any extra money raised can go into a money pot for new planting! Get the local kids involved too.

Anonymous said...

Nick who are the ARCHITECTS!

Anonymous said...

Surely "art" lighting under the bridge would be better than painting under the bridge?

Anonymous said...

Effective art lighting (not highlighting pigeons and their poop of course!) could work really well!

Keep it simple and effective!

There are many options and maybe better ones than a mural for that space.

By the way who are the architects? Nobody has mentioned their name and I have not attended the meeting. It is important to know who is in charge of the design and to check if they are a good practice.

Brockley Nick said...

Architect Anon, here is the truth you seek: http://bit.ly/nbw9f

NAT said...

@ Nick Check.

To the extent that we're talking sensibly, I have agreed that the proposed new developement would be exactly the wrong place for a gallery, and for the reasons you've outlined.

And to the extent that I am questioning hyperbole in another post, then that is what I was initially doing.

NAT said...

Anon 11:10 Agree (strongly)

Ez said...

A curved corner at the north end would be difficult to bring off at the same time as preserving the run of the canal cottages, especially since this is the location of the house, I think, but it would be worth a try.

Victorian architects were expert at going around corners and some modern variant of the curve and cupola might well integrate the scheme better into the neighbourhood.

Anonymous said...

Yes to arty lighting under the bridge.
Yes to making a LOT more of a feature out of that northern corner of the site - at the moment it is going to be a 4-bedroom house, which isn't perhaps quite as attention-grabbing an idea as it could be. Would be far nicer to have a strong commercial unit in that space so that the area looks busy and 'central' as you emerge from under the bridge.

Brockley Nick said...

I have always thought this Notting Hill florist design would be perfect for that spot http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Society/Pix/pictures/2008/04/22/3toilets.jpg

Anonymous said...

A florist like that would be amazing there ...

Anonymous said...

Leave the Bridge mural free, just needs sprucing up and maybe lighting.

Anonymous said...

Any more pics yet or application details for us to see?

Anonymous said...

Looking at the site tonight on way home, I'm still unsure about height. Four storeys is more than opposite, though the flat roof will help. It will be a big change to the current feel, even if four isn't unusual in other bits of Brockley.

Another thought though. From the designs, it looks like all the retail units are on the north west corner. If so, this feels like a missed opportunity. Units where the murals currently are would have a lot of footfall going past and link up the Broca, Browns and Speedicars with the little row including Mo Pho and Degustation.

NAT said...

The side facing The Canal Cottages looks more like a three storey with Dormers.

It looks like it's the height of a victorian three storey including roof, or thereabouts.

Anonymous said...

I think the Bob Marley mural would look good recreated under the bridge, forget the rest

Anonymous said...

Incorporating a well designed 'BROCKLEY' lettering sign on some part of the building as per one of their previous developments 'Spotted Cow' would add some character.

http://www.emolipetroschka.co.uk/projectspottedcow01.html

Tamsin said...

To grossly over-simplify but toss in a thought... Modern buildings don't do curves because the current crop of architects grew up with software that could only cope with straight lines. Might change later as computers can now generate more interesting shapes.

Four storeys on that site would be a bit loomey.

I presume they've done their market research and know what they're doing, but a four bedroom house in such a development looks like variety just for the sake of it. Surely, if you want four bedrooms you've family and so you wouldn't choose a location on a busy main road with no garden? And if price is a constraint you would go for three bedrooms on a more obviously residential street and either make two of the kids share (older properties have bigger rooms) or convert a loft. I would have thought four bedrooms on this site would be very hard to sell - ME would use the space better with couple of flats (one and two bedrooms) for dinkies.

Mb said...

"current crop of architects grew up with software that could only cope with straight lines."

Your on the right track but the opposite applies. CAD software has been able to cope with curves for decades and infact can deal with them far easier, or at least you can translate the curves on the screen to reality easier. 3D modelling can show weird shapes and help you manipulate them, manufacturers use the 3d models to manufacture parts direct. Paper is a bit 1980s. If you look at modern cars (mobile architecture really) there isn't a straight line on them. I suspect it's more economics and fashion? Cheaper to build and flat sheets of glass are far easier to cope with?

I'm guessing...

Tamsin said...

@ MB Like cars being mobile architecture. And leads one to wonder how that ties in with architecture being frozen music (and Swan's music being de-frosted architecture)... But a definite insight.

Cost - and off-site manufacture - is a big, big factor - you are entirely right. Looking around for something that is quietly understated without being boring or earning itself the derogatory epithet "pastiche" and the council flats in Batavia Road (the grotty side of New Cross Road behind the library - from whose back door I was collecting books by the car-load - and Iceland) and very easy on the eye.

But built of lovely London stock brick, so not flavour of the decade and now comparatively expensive. Easier and cheaper to be "iconic" (which is a derogatory epithet in my terms) with factory made finishes.

Anonymous said...

Wouldn't it be nice if they used old stocks rather than the bright yellow new ones that grace every new block along the river?

Tamsin said...

Old ones cost a fortune - and the new yellow will mellow in a couple of decades.

Mb said...

Factory made really need not be nasty. You can manufacture in a quality controlled environment and assemble on site. Much of Tower bridge is a cast iron frame (cast in foundries) with stone cladding, sydney harbour bridge was largly made in the uk and assembled on site as was the forth bridge. Spend the money and you can get what you want.

Danja said...

I have this image of Tamsin's ideal hoddy - not just mixing the mortar, but pugging the clay, and moulding and firing the bricks as the wall goes up.

Whereas in reality of course he picks them off the pallet, from a factory.

Tamsin said...

You're being a bit unfair.

I'm just saying that brick - particularly if it can be anything other than stretcher bond - is a nice surface. But, there are cost constraints and time ones. Crossways Academy could not be anything other than pre-formed slabs slotted into place as the deadline the Council had given themselves was too tight for anything else. And, it's not always bad news. Crystal Place (when built in Hyde Park) and the wonderfully innovative use of glass and iron, came about because there was simply not the time to manufacture the quantity of bricks that would be needed, never mind the time of laying them and waiting for the mortar to dry etc.

Danja said...

I don't think I'm being unfair. There's nothing at all wrong with nice brick walls, but there is plenty of factory in them, that's all I'm saying.

To get a wall up which doesn't have a largely factory-made element, you need to go back further to wattle and daub etc.

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