Bakerloo Line extension 'not a priority' for Boris' TfL

Michele Dix, Transport for London's managing director for planning, has confirmed that a Bakerloo Line extension south from Elephant & Castle is “not high up the priority list of TfL projects,” despite the scoping work which confirmed “there was a need” for the project, which TfL also regard as “sensible” and “worthy of further work.”

SE1 has the full story here.

The lack of appetite is due to the fact that there is no obvious source of funding at the moment. And it is clear that Mayor Johnson is not batting for South East London transport, as Dix said she was unaware of any conversation between the Mayor and Government about it, despite Boris’ positive noises about it last year.

The Bakerloo Line extension will happen eventually, but we’ll have to wait until Boris leaves office before it becomes a reality.

Thanks to Monkeyboy for the story.

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

Another reason to vote Boris out.

mb said...

Much as i dislike the blonde haired buffoon, I'm not sure Ken would have been in a position to push it any harder. It's been a scheme that was 'being considered' before Boris and will possibly be in the pending tray when the next Mayor leaves.

PS I forwarded from another Twitter spy, @bitoclass

Anonymous said...

Some more overground trains in the mornings / evenings would suffice for now!

Joris Bohnson said...

In the SE1 article Ms Shawcross says "At the moment there's not a mechanism for paying for the Bakerloo line extension." and goes on to say there are funds for extending the northern line . I have very little knowledge about this area hence my wondering why they would have money for the northern but not the bakerloo? BJ isnt exactly consistent I wouldnt expect much from him whatsover.

Anonymous said...

@15:20 - Simple answer the northern extension is only two stops, and battersea will soon host the new American Embassy

http://london.usembassy.gov/new_embassy.html

Not sure the south east has a compelling political argument, other than the line is needed

Joris Bohnson said...

thanks, i see. Always wondered why the vast majority of the tube network was north of the river, heard it was because south of the river the earth was/is more marshy and swampy or some such reason, not sure if this is the real reason or not?!

Lou Baker said...

Disappointing - but unsurprising.

The Northern Line extension has come from nowhere to be the must have line. And this is because it has a strong campaign behind it.

But the Bakerloo extension - which would benefit more people - hasn't had the same impact.

Actually extending it could be relatively simple. It just needs to join the existing mainline either in Camberwell or Peckham - and then can following existing routes from there. Perhaps ending up in Hayes or Dartford.

But as usual with railway projects in this country we make them more complicated than they are - get too many people involved and that pushes the cost through the roof.

In France they decide they want an extension on a Monday, they start work on Tuesday and it's finished in no time. Here we procrastinate for decades - give every dwebble on the planet a chance to object for spurious reasons, end up in court battles, finally settle for an inadequate compromise which ends up costing 20 times as much and does half of what was planned. And then it's built by people with zero sense of urgency.

That's why Crossrail is a ghastly mash. It's why Thameslink 2000 won't be finished until 2020. And it's why I won't believe HS2 will happen until I'm actually on a high speed train through the Chilterns.

Makes you ashamed to be British.

Anonymous said...

Shame, though if I lived in Camberwell I'd be really pissed off.

Anonymous said...

On a brighter note....looks like Crofton Park trains run normal again from May.

http://twitter.com/#!/TLProgramme/statuses/159289683908624384

mk said...

Good example of Boris's priorities. No thought for a tubeline extension, but classes *another* car-only tunnel as a priority for London.

What about the rest of us on foot, bicycles and buses?

He has to go.

THNick said...

Lou - I'm not joining the mainline would be quite that simple (certainly not in Camberwell....) but otherwise I agree. We seem unable to push through anything. All these major projects will piss somebody off, why give all of them 5 years to appeal? And then settle for somethign so half-baked - HS2 will connect London and Birmingham, 2 cities close to each other. It should be going to Bristol, Leeds, Manchester, Glagow and Edinburgh as a minimum


(And Crossrail was renamed Crossrail 2000 after the first lot of delays)

Anonymous said...

Agree with the previous Overground comment. Am sick of being horribly crammed in on my morning commute from Brockley.

It's either that or take the "London Bridge Gamble" whereby I always seem to get kettled in at the barriers.

Brockley Kiwi said...

"Actually extending it could be relatively simple. It just needs to join the existing mainline either in Camberwell or Peckham - and then can following existing routes from there."

Lou ... you're in danger of contradicting one of the pillars of your vociferous criticism of the ELL extension ... (using existing infrastructure).

Anonymous said...

On the Thameslink tweet, does this definitely impact Crofton Park? The only comments I can find refer to the Bedford-Brighton, Luton-Sutton and St Albans-Sutton routes, so not the Sevenoaks line?

Mb said...

THNick, you mean thameslink 2000? Languished for years due to no moolah.

Rational Plan said...

Yes, Val Shawcross is so neutral when it comes to Boris.

There is nothing startling new in this article.

Quoting the article:

"The priority for TfL is to finish the upgrades that we've got at present first, and then any further extensions such as the Bakerloo, unless there are opportunities to develop further extensions, such as the Northern line, because there's a way of paying for them," she said.

"At the moment there's not a mechanism for paying for the Bakerloo line extension."


"But work was done to confirm that yes, it's a sensible scheme and yes, these are the options worthy of further work.

"A certain level of further work is being done but if you start going to the public and talking about options ... it's usually on the basis that you are likely to be able to deliver something."



The Bakerloo line extension is in the Mayors Plan, but it has always been put in as a post 2020's scheme.

As the article states priority is for the existing tube upgrade plan to be finished.

Currently TFL seems to be girding up for the next round of tube upgrade after this one, where they are looking at aircondiioned tube trains and increasing automation.

They are at the moment spending huge sums in London. We have crossrail, Thameslink platform lengthening is spreading to South West Traiins now. Big money is needed for the rail network still.

HS2 is the next monster scheme, which help capacity in NW London.

TFL object of desire is to have Crossrail 2 which would be from Wimbledon to Seven Sisters, via Tooting, clapham, Victoria, TCR, kings X, Angel and Hackney.

The Northern line slips through as a smaller project at about a billion. It's just two stops where they want to build Over 10,000 new flats where the devlopers will have to pay a fee of £40,000 per flat to fund the line. As Nine Elms has Battersea, Putney, Clapham and Chelsea on it's doorstep land value will support such large contributions.

To fund the Bakerloo the same way would require a wall of high price apartment towers all the way down the Old Kent Road to Lewisham. I see a few difficulties with such a strategy for South East London.

The problem for the Bakerloo extension is that it falls between smaller schemes and the mega projects that transform all of London.

But it is in the Mayors plan and is seen as the solution for more train paths on the South Eastern lines by having it takeover the hayes branch. It's spotlighted in Network rails RUS long term investment options for SE London.

Matt-Z said...

Good summary there Rational Plan. This is a bit of a non-story. No money for major new projects at the moment, and even if there was the Bakerloo just ain't the priority.

Bonus points to Kiwi for highlighting Lou's blatant hypocrisy over reusing existing infrastructure.

Brockley Nick said...

@RP - fair points, well made.

Lou Baker said...

@matt

I said it should follow existing routes. I did not say - and did not mean - use existing infrastructure.

The Bakerloo should follow the Nunhead-Lewisham link line, which should be four tracked. The railway cutting is largely wide enough to create a new line on an existing alignment.

If the Overground had been done properly we would have had an extra pair of tracks along the existing alignment. To give us a genuinely new line while not affecting the existing one.

Instead it is a bastard child. Not one thing nor another.

Rational Plan said...

@Matt,

Yes, I'd like the Bakerloo to come forward, but there are limits at what central government can give London. You should here the screeching about Thameslink and Crossrail from elsewhere in the country. They swung crossrail on a mix central governemnt contribution, ticket sales and supplementary business rates.

Bakerloo is going to cost £4 billion, where to get the money? The big corporates won't be interested in paying rates for a line that does not create a new route in central london. Also if you were TFL and you had the chance for a multi billion project, then you would go for a bigger one that attract other funds. The other reason for lukewarm support is that the scheme only has only a modest BCR.

Some way needs to be found to get a contribution from Network rail.

Transfer of the Hayes line will only create an extra 6/8 paths through New Cross. How much is that worth to the other rail companies?

The problem is that Crossrail will help with capacity on the SE lines and the worst capacity crunch is on the lines out towards orpington and tonbridge not to Lewisham.

patrick1971 said...

It would be good if we could get the Victoria-Bellingham service via Crofton Park if we can't have the Bakerloo Line extension. Surely the rolling stock will be available once the London Bridge to Victoria via Denmark Hill service ceases?

TheOracle said...

Rational Plan, are you sure of those figures in relation to the developer contribution per flat?

£40,000 per 10,000 flats is £400,000,000!

Surely we can find some space, if this is the case.

Anonymous said...

England is a city state that revolves around London (like it or not!) and it's capital needs a top notch and efficient integrated transport system.

Borrow the money now and push all the required track/line extensions and upgrades through.

And for the love of god no more 5+ year long public consultations.

Lou Baker said...

@anon

Well said. As a country we can never find the money for these much needed infrastructure projects.

But we never have any difficulty finding billions and billions to keep millions of layabouts living the high life at taxpayers' expense.

I say we divert cash away from obese Scots, promiscuous northerners and Welsh layabouts. If they want to sit around all day drinking, smoking and watching Jeremy Kyle - fine. But we should not pay them to live like that. If you want our money you work for it. You sweep streets, you tidy parks, you help charities - you do not get something for nothing.

Scarce resources can then be invested in much needed infrastructure projects. HS2, Crossrail 2, trams throughout northern cities, a Thames Estuary super airport, Bakerloo
extension, renewable power. Vital investments in our country's future.

Beyond parody said...

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Lou. Voice of reason.

Lou Baker said...

@beyond

What's wrong?

You don't think investing in infrastructure is a good thing?

You don't expect everyone to contribute their fair share?

You don't think it's good for people to work?

Enlighten us.

Beyond parody said...

Can't talk.....laughing me arse off at your lack of self awareness.

Anonymous said...

Why are TfL spending millions on air conditioning and cooling stations while fitting more and more video screens that generate heat?

Why does it need something like 30 screens by the escalators at Charing Cross all showing the same ad?

Mb said...

Because it makes lots of money that would otherwise be raised through fares or additional government subsidy. Not sure the the additional heat load is that great but yes it does add to the problem.

Brockley Nick said...

And tfl doesn't pay to install them, my client CBS Outdoor does.

Anonymous said...

I frigging hate those advert screens up the escalators.

Waste of energy, scumbag advertisers.

Mb said...

See this for a sober, informed opinion. Its money, moolah, filthy lucre, thats all. Theres little debate about whether it would be beneficial. http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/white-knights-and-wishlists-northern-and-bakerloo-line-extensions/

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