Crossrail levy for Lewisham developments

From April 1st, developers in Lewisham have to pay £35 per square metre of new build in a levy for TfL to raise money for Crossrail. Exemptions include domestic extensions and social housing projects. As a zone two borough, Lewisham is in the mid-price bracket for developers, with zone one developments having to cough up £50 per square metre.

Thanks to Monkeyboy for the heads up.

50 comments:

mb said...

How much does Lewisham benefit from crossrail?

Anonymous said...

Loads, if people from Lewisham (and yes that includes Brockley) get off their arses and use it.

Ask not what Crossrail can do for you, ask what you can do for Crossrail.

Monkeyboy said...

For the avoidance of doubt the first mb was not me.

Anonymous said...

I was gonna say Monkeyboy - the benefits of having another line to strike over must surely win it for your boys!

Anonymous said...

This is great news. they can start with a few of thse Brockley units in ashby mews that are causing so much trouble

Lou Baker said...

Crossrail has close to zero benefit to Brockley.

Unless you travel regularly to Heathrow or places like Maidenhead or Slough it will not help your journey significantly.

For London overall it's useful. For us, not.

Brockley Nick said...

If only we could somehow relocate Brockley to this London place you speak of and then London's gain would be our own too.

Crossrail unlocks much more development in East London. That means more jobs on this side of the city and long-term, the centre of gravity shifting east. Plus, I bet it will become Brockleyite's preferred route to places like Tottenham Court road and Paddington (via the ELL interchange at Whitechapel).

Anonymous said...

Re Ashby Mews: be careful what you wish for. Planning permission for 5 light industrial units has already been granted and therefore won't be subject to the levy. If the current application for live/work units is refused or becomes too expensive, Ashby Mews may end up with the 5 industrial units.

MalB said...

I can see it being useful and only wish it would be ready sooner. The interchange with Whitechapel opens up the opportunity of a lot of faster trips out west (or east) rather than the multiple changes we currently need to make. That plus the ELL extension to Clapham Junction opens out a whole load of new convenient journeys.

Now if they will only bring back through trains to Charing Cross (even if they can't stop at London Bridge) ...

Lou Baker said...

@ nick

If you live in Ealing Crossrail is great. Likewise Woolwich, Stratford and Shenfield.

But how does it realistically help most of us on a day to day basis? It won't make our journeys quicker, less crowded or cheaper.

The problem is that we think one big scheme will solve our problems. It won't. We need Crossrails 2, 3 and 4.

While any investment is welcome we must be realistic about the benefit for us - which minimal.

And whoever mentioned Clapham Junction - sadly there will be no direct trains. You have to change at Surrey Quays.

Anonymous said...

I'm surprise no one ever queries the millions of pounds residents of Lewisham have paid over the years to the Lea Valley Regional Park Authority.

Here's a thought...since 1996 we have paid around £45m to the Lea Valley Authority, during that time due to its deprived status New Cross qualified for about the same sum of to regen New Cross.

If we were paying millions to wards improving the impoverished Hertfordshire & Essex.

The council could have funded the regen of New Cross itself or could have paid for a new secondary school.

Also we are still funding the GLC and ILEA which was scrapped 20-25 years ago.

Headhunter said...

Crossrail will be very good for London as a whole but as Lou says and I welcome it however it only benefits our area indirectly, unless you are regularly heading out to Heathrow or something. Certainly it may ultimately encourage development in east London, north of the river along its route but that's a possible indirect benefit not something that's going to immediately impact people living in Brockley like the removal of services to Charing Cross and Waterloo...

Headhunter said...

Yeah I read about the funding certain boroughs across London are forced to provide to the Lea Valley. Apparently it was set up as a green space to be enjoyed by residents across east and SE London in the 1950s or something even though transport links to the Lea Valley have been non existent and most people in Brockley and wider SE London have never heard of it and have no idea millions of pounds of their council tax is funding it... I think some councils are currently challenging this siphoning off of millions of pounds for a facility that no one in their regions uses whilst libraries are closing and roads are potholed....

Brockley Nick said...

@Lou and HH - are you guys just saying that Brockley isn't getting a Crossrail station? I think we all understand that point. If you've got another point I can't see what it is?

BrockleyKate said...

Crossrail will make it well easier for me to get to large parts of central London, and that is something which will benefit me on a weekly basis. So I dunno what all this 'doesn't benefit Brockley directly' nonsense is about.

If you want to get to Farringdon, TCR, Paddington at the moment, which route do you take? I bet it involves more than 1 interchange. With Crossrail, it's 1 change, at Whitechapel, lovely and simple. What's not to like about that?!

Tamsin said...

It seems a good idea to me - and even if no of immediate benefit "no man is an island" etc., etc. Good for London has to be good for us. And as a way of financing a massive infrastructure project is has to be a darn slight better than some hideos PPF lawywers' paradise that would leave the revenues in hock for decades.

A step towards the econonic theory that public works should be paid for by a capital tax on the private properties that go up in value because of them - which is an interesting idea but, fully implemented, ould;be an impossible nightmare in real life. But this is neat, simple, and small beer, surely, in most developments.

Anonymous said...

Puff Puff to London Bridge change to platform 6, another puffer to Farringdon......Mornington Crescent!

Tressilliana said...

We went to Paddington the other day. The quickest route we've found is to take the overground from Brockley to Canada Water, change to the Jubilee Line, change again at Baker Street to the Bakerloo line, two or three stops to Paddington. It was quick but unpleasant in the rush hour. The new route using Crossrail will be easier and will, with luck, ease the congestion a bit.

Brockley Dogging Society said...

Changing at Baker St at high speed provides the most fulfilling experience, the BDS finds.

Mb said...

Crossrail 2 and what they are calling crossrail 3 do not plan to stop anywhere near brockers let alone se4 so not sure how comparing crossrail with schemes that only exist on far off plans help. It will take the pressure of existing tube lines so even if you never set foot on it you'll get some benefit, especially the central and jubilee. People need to stop seeing rail/tube in London as a set of separate lines and realise its a network, all be it with compromises that happen in the real world, most people do actually. One or two struggle with the concept.

Tamsin said...

The simplest way to get to Paddington with no changes (for New Cross and Telegraph Hill people) or only one change (for others) - if time is not a major issue - is the 36 or 436 bus. Used to use it regularly when going down to see my mother in in a nursing home in Cheltenham.

Rational Plan said...

No, there won't be any crossrail stations in SE London, but it will benefit through having an interchange at Whitechapel.

The biggest effect will be commuter flows to the Isle of Dogs. Fewer people will use the Jubilee line as Crossrail will be much better for access to the West End.

It will also be much quicker if you need to get to the City, so the DLR will be quieter.

The main problem is that the Overground coming from the South will be much busier as people will be interchanging at Whitchapel for the City and the West End, not just for Canary Wharf.

Anonymous said...

How many hours does it take to go from Brockley to Paddington by bus, Tamsin?

Tamsin said...

Travelling on a Saturday morning I used to reckon about an hour (admittedly from the Northern end of Greater Bockley, i.e. Telegraph Hill, so just one bus). But it was a good option with two young children to manage on any change - pack 'em straight up to the top deck, keep them amused with the bicycle game and it made visiting Granny an enjoyable day out rather than a difficult chore.

Anonymous said...

TFL Journeyplanner reckons an hour and a quarter. Plus waiting time for the bus, you'd want to give it an hour and a half. So both ways, that's 3 hours. No thanks. Crossrail for me.

Tressilliana said...

I think it took 40 minutes to get back from Paddington to Brockley the other night. That was just after the rush hour.

Robert said...

I think that this is a very dangerous and ill-considered policy. One of Boris's babies, of course.

If Lewisham has any further vested interests in the construction of large residential developments, then we might start to see more large-scale applications getting waved through planning in inappropriate places.

The quotas given by the London Plan already tip the planning balance in the residential developer's favour. Though if profit is to be made for public services too - then the political pressure on planning departments, and local councilors to carry things through will be immense.

Also, if a residential developer is having to swallow more incumbent costs - then there is less money to spend on public amenity (public realm, shops, business uses), design, or build quality.

This is a recipe for a swathe of large, cheap, mono-usage residential development cropping up all over London - and it will be hard to prevent them.

I support the general need for Crossrail - but is is more important to get the correct balance and quality of building use and type in London communities right as a priority - so that they can thrive as places to live, and work.

I'm not ready to see the parts of London that are not already set up for large scale business use (The City, Docklands, West-End) sacrificed as residential subburbs serving these areas. That is poor city planning. The Garden City model does't work on cities of this scale. Each area, no matter how small, needs to be economically functional, on different levels, in its own right.

Anonymous said...

Lewisham's Local Development Framework already has it as a dormitory suburb. That is the Council's idea of "regeneration".

Unfortunately no enough people objected to the plan when it was exposed for public consultation and to say now that we shouldn't be a residential area for the City and Canary Wharf is too late.

Monkeyboy said...

Think this predates boris. There was always going to be a portion of the cost to be raised by tfl as there is by docklands direct. It was part of the funding model.

Brockley Nick said...

Anon I dont think a meeting where the Council debated whether to be the new Westminster or the new Bexley and plumped for the latter.

There are lots of reasons why lewisham is primarily residential that are completely beyond the Council's control (eg transport infrastructure).

There's nothing wrong with being residential, that's what most of London is. The aim should be to be a really good residential borough, with pockets of enterprise, tourism and cultural excellence.

We should be ambitious but not to the point of denial about what the borough is.

Do you really envy Tower Hamlets, when Canary Wharf is 10 mins away by tube?

Robert said...

There was not really much specifically said about Brockley at all in the Core Strategy. I did register comments during the consultation on some of the broader topics, but nothing came of them!

Apart from a few strategic areas that Lewisham are focusing on, the rest of the borough has been left pretty open - no no bad thing.

Lou Baker said...

The easiest - and quickest - way to Farringdon is by direct train from Crofton Park or Nunhead. No changes - and only 6 stops. Crossrail won't change that.

MB likes to talk about 'a network'. And, agreed, the tube is a network. Convenient, direct, very frequent. It's all those things. Hopping off one tube and on to another is usually not hard - and, usually, not time consuming.

The flaw in MB's argument is that national rail services, most of the Overground and the extremities of the tube don't run a frequent enough service - and if they do they serve multiple destinations, sometimes leaving you with long waits. I am sure we've all turned up at Canada Water in the late evening only to find a 20 minute wait for the next Brockley train. Even in the rush hour a 10 minute wait is not uncommon if you just miss a train and the next one is going to New Cross.

15 minute waits are standard on many suburban services - even busy ones. 30 minutes is not uncommon. Some London routes even run an hourly service at weekends.

Multiple different companies. Timetables which don't join up. Excessive waits. Unpredictable services. There is no network MB. You think there is. But there is not. There is just the long suffering commuter who needs decent railways and not the one you and your hob nob munching friends have inflicted on us.

Monkeyboy said...

So we agree that crossrail will make it easier so not a wate of money. Excellent. Glad you agree with ken that the mayor should have control over suburban services. Excellent.

Still not seen a sensible argument for why people are using the ELL over the southern service to LB to get into town. they must all be insane, tens of thousands of people all quiet mad. Crofton park would not be quicker for me because I'd have to get to crofton park. I use a bus from southwark.

Your childish bleats really do you no favours. Your really are the most parochial person. Much as I love brockley it's hardly an area that justify direct services to every strategic point in the uk. Things are better since the ELL, brockley station has seen numbers sore. These people are going somewhere, your wrong.

Crossrail 2&3 will also not visit the area, we will still benefit since we live in London.

Now please sit in the garden and fume about how shit everything is. It's a spring day, everything is beautiful.

FrFintonStack said...

I'd imagine the reason most people don't use the Thamelink service from Crofton Park is its low frequency (30 min, compared to 6 min or so on the ELL). Then, the fact it's in Zone 3, then, if using PAYG, you have to pay a full extra fare to change to the tube (as opposed to a small surcharge from Southern trains, and nothing from ELL), and, if you live near Brockley Station, you're fifteen walk from Crofton Park. Oh, and it doesn't run at weekends or late at night. Yup, you'd be mad to use anything else, and another high-frequency service will be of no benefit whatsoever.

Lou Baker said...

@mb

I don't think Crossrail is a waste of money. I've never said it is. I think it is beneficial for London as a whole. But within London it is far more beneficial for some areas than others. And along with boroughs like Kingston and Bromley, Lewisham is one of the boroughs for which it provides least benefit.

I have no objection to the Mayor running suburban rail services either. And as for future Crossrails - you'll know no firm route has been set for Crossrail 2, just a vague south-west to north-east line. Crossrail 3 is vaguer still - suggested only as a Euston-Waterloo link. That's the one we need to argue should connect SE London with NW London via the centre.

And as for the ELL - people use it because it is there not because it's good. My objection to this line has always been that it has been ill thought out and done on the cheap. With predictions now of overcrowding by 2016 I have clearly been right all along.

Monkeyboy said...

So the crossrail your talking about is the one that NO ONE else is talking about? So your comparing the current proposal with one that only exists in your head?

Thing is, Crossrail 2 is more than a vague proposition see http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/safeguarding/chelsea-hackney-line#.T4sQUhB5mSM

It's called "safeguarding" it's what grow ups do when planning these things.

Now I'm not as smart as you so for the avoidance of doubt can you provide a sketch and a name for your proposal? Crossrail 2 is used by policy makers. How about the Brockley Kings Road line. Brocking? Brocking 1, that way it suggests there will be others. Brockley will be the kingscross of the south. You sir are a visionary rivalled only by brunell and mayor quimby.

Plain English said...

Could someone please provide a translation of Robert's 18:04 post please?

Lou Baker said...

@mb

Gosh - calm down. Have a cuppa. It is 0930 after all, that must be tea break time.

Crossrail 2 remains a vague proposal. There is a safeguarded route - but that does not mean that is the route it will follow. You'll know (for example) that Euston is not on the safeguarded route - but if HS2 goes there, then Crossrail 2 will have to go there too. You'll know there are problems at Piccadilly Circus - because national rail gauge trains won't fit. You'll know the route options beyond the central core are fuzzy. You'll no doubt remember that Crossrail 1 was down to serve Kingston at one stage - it actually goes nowhere near. So, yes, the Crossrail 2 proposals are vague. Crossrail 3 are virtually non-existent.

But consider this. Thameslink fills in a north-south gap. Crossrail does the same for east-west. And Crossrail 2 will connect NE to SW. The only major link missing then will be north-west London to south-east. The rest of London will have direct links to the central core - and easier onwards links as a result.

Now I am not suggesting that a Crossrail 3 would necessarily serve Brockley. It probably won't. But it should probably serve Lewisham or New Cross or Peckham. Network Rail itself argues that capacity is running out in south east London - this is a long term solution.

I understand visionaries like me and Boris - with his wonderful airport island - can seem a little distant to conventional folk. That doesn't make us any less brilliant. Oh, and I'm glad we both think I'm smarter than you.

How's the tea? Are you a dunker?

mb said...

No Crossrail 2 may not follow that route but I would suggest that most people apart from you recognise that route as being the one discussed. Crossrail 1 could be changed, anything can be changed. Safegaurding a route is the first stage of something being firmed up, it's how things work.

Daubing a map of London with crayons is not an informed opinion.

More of a bacon sandwich from the LU canteen actually. Honest fare.

Anonymous said...

Don't ask Mb to reply during his shift, Lou - he'll only want a raise for it.

Monkeyboy said...

Good article and will have some interesting comments on the candidates manifestos. This is where crayon wielding and reality meet.


http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/politics-and-london-transport/

FrFintonStack said...

"My objection to this line has always been that it has been ill thought out and done on the cheap. With predictions now of overcrowding by 2016 I have clearly been right all along."

Right, let's get this straight: because the ELL will, within the next few years, *be so popular it won't be able to cope with the numbers using it*, you take that as evidence it was a bad idea, and doesn't fulfill people's needs?

Seriously, WTF?

Anonymous said...

In the networking business, be it trains, cars or packets flying around the Internet. It remains one of the great challenges to predict how the traffic will flow after new links are put in.

It never turns out how you think it will, there are too many outside factors to take into consideration that influence how people decide to take a particular journey.

Many, like changing work patterns, new shopping centres, businesses expanding or contracting, will confound predictions.

You can try to predict but you will not be accurate and there will always be someone sniping at you for it.

The Crow's Nest said...

Well, many a true word said in jest as they say - Monkeyboy's lot have just announced their strike programme for the coming summer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17728365

Talk about dishonest fare(s)!

Lou Baker said...

@frfinton

The problem with the ELL has always been its shortsightedness.

The trains are short because some of the stations aren't long enough.

Some of the stations aren't long enough because no one was prepared to make decisions which were either a) politically brave b) expensive or c) both of these things.

The line is further compromised by its lack of connections and the failure to segregate it out as a dedicated route.

The easiest - and cheapest - way to provide extra capacity on our bit of the ELL will be to axe London Bridge trains completely. But some platforms have just been extended to provide - guess what - longer London Bridge trains.

A far bolder, a far smarter - but a more expensive - solution would have seen an extra pair of tracks laid for the ELL south of the river. Much - but not all - of the existing railway cutting is wide enough for this. But instead of coming up with this much more sensible plan - which would have been more cost effective in the long run - we get Frankenstein's railway that'll be full 8 years after its built. Mad.

No wonder we have the crappest railways in western Europe.

Monkeyboy said...

So comparing a project with a certain budget with an imaginary project that bears no resemblance that would have cost several times as much? A project that had 7 car trains that ran every two minutes to London bridge, Oxford st and kings cross would have been much better. We can all dream up great proposals, it's fun. Pointless but fun.

The ELL works, it does what it was supposed to do. It was early and on budget. Not only have the wheels fallen off your argument, it's on bricks with its windows smashed and a family of foxes living in the boot.

Anonymous said...

Having not felt sufficiently rewarded with their quadruple time pay over Christmas and their Olympic bonus on top of their £900+/week salary, Monkeyboy's men have put down their cups of tea to get their press release outreach coordinator to announce a 72 hour strike from 4PM on the 24th April.

http://london-underground.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/72-hour-tube-strike-april-24th-2012.html

Ali P said...

Transport links are woefully poor across south London, yet we are still being asked to pay for improvements north of the river. Crossrail only helps Lewishamites via Canary Wharf or London Bridge, both of which will be chaotic to use. Why on Earth is there nothing that connects across the south? Political?

mb said...

The argument is that London as a whole benefits, some areas more than otheres hences the weighted contributions. Also, Crossrail will be mainline sized every couple of miniutes from Whitchaple so will be a real alternative to Canada Water so you will notice a difference if your route to work involves that. The funding for Crossrail included a contribution from London (on top of the transport grant) as well as a levy on businesses and Canary Wharf. Public Transport involves public money even if you don't notice a direct benefit, the alternative is to have no subsidy for building and charge the passenger only for operations. Nothing would get built on that model.

mb said...

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/railway/funding

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