Toll bait - the CPZ debate reimagined

BC reader Hugh writes:

I went to visit a friend not so far from Brockley and came across a parking solution that may represent an acceptable solution for Foxberry road and other roads around the station. I never saw this before and thought I would share it.

The picture shows a parking restriction 9 to 6.30 with the possibility to park for up to 2 hours for free multiple, non-consecutive (ie: max of 2 every 3 hours), times a day.

This does not solve the cost of £150 per year, but would give a very intellingent answer to all comments such as "I do not want to pay if the plumber, a friend or my mother comes to visit me." Or "I need to be able to park near the high street when I go there with my children to buy food."

81 comments:

Anonymous said...

If you live in Brockley and you need to get to the high street, there's really no need to drive.

Anonymous said...

Would prefer to see 4hrs on that sign. 2hrs can be a very short time if you have workers at the house. What roads will be affected?

Anonymous said...

If you're having any work done on your house they usually turn up at 8 and leave at 4, that's 8 hours.

Brockley Nick said...

No roads will be affected - this is just one person's idea. I know there is a particular problem on Foxberry Road, but personally, I think a CPZ is a very large hammer to crack a relatively small nut. You can't introduce a CPZ for only one road, it would have to be for roads in a wide area, all around the station. I don't think Brockley parking problems justify the expense and inconvenience this would inflict on residents.

Anonymous said...

Durrr then if it's over 2 hours you get one of the 5 hour or day permits. Sounds like the perfect solution - think its called compromise

Anonymous said...

I'd like to ask where the sign is - is it in Lewisham?

Living just outside of the Ladywell CPZ i can say that it's caused all sorts of problems - at least one of them a cause for real concern as it makes the road dangerous.

The Council acts very irresponsibly with CPZs - and from what I've heard (from a councillor) they favour the benefits of the company enforcing the CPZ over those of the residents within the zone.

M said...

I believe that's in Crystal Palace. I parked in a bay marked like that on the high street there.

THNIck said...

Unless the plumber takes more than 2 hours. And doesnt solve the problem of visitors staying at your house. Or the pain when you get a new car. Or do anything to justify the need for a CPZ.

BB Roader said...

The CPZ gradually spreading its way up from Lewisham near the new flats, up Algernon and Brookbank Road, is also causing many problems. Not only do those people who used to park on Algernon etc to use Lewisham station now park further up the hill on Brookbank (the top half) and Shell (so fewer spaces for the same number of people), but those residents on the lower half of Brookbank who don't want to pay for a CPZ seem also to be parking further up Brookbank where there is no CPZ. As a result, Shell Road, Brookbank Road and Fossil Road are all rammed - but sneak a peak further down Brookbank and it's pretty much empty. Very frustrating. This will soon be compounded by the fact that the council will be painting double yellow lines around the corner of Shell and Brookbank so people can't park right up to the edge of the roundabout - this is much needed as people have begun squeezing their cars onto the corner by the mini roundabout, making it almost impossible for the 484 bus to get round the corner - BUT it will further reduce the number of parking spaces. I feel that we are being blackmailed into a CPZ - several residents who used to be against them now want one as they are fed up with not being able to park anywhere near their house. This is a relatively new problem on these roads and it has definitely been exacerbated by the new Brookbank CPZ, which was not necessary IMO. Cash cow for the council.

Anonymous said...

The most important thing is that people that live there can park at least near their houses. I would happily pay for a permit for my road (Foxberry).

Anonymous said...

We live near the station and every morning our road fills with cars parked by commuters - there's nowhere for any tradesperson or friend to park... our plumber had to park 2 streets away last week. It's getting ridiculous

Anonymous said...

Not to mention - fewer commuters driving and parking in Brockley = more space on the overground!

NAT said...

BB Roader, spot on, and all exacerbated by making no parking provision for the new flats.

Anonymous said...

What if visiting relatives for a day or more? 2 hours won't get you very far then, Mungo.

Andy Endwell said...

Dear god not the CPZ again - they are an absolute bloody nightmare and those who believe that it will solve tyheir parking problems are living in a fools paradise! I know because I have previously had to endure two CPZ's.

Anonymous said...

Is there anywhere to park in ladywell? The lack of a spot has stopped in me popping in to the shops there in the past

Anonymous said...

"I need to be able to park near the high street when I go there with my children to buy food."

Wot 'High Street'?

NAT said...

14:21, lots of 20 minute spaces on the road paralell to the High St. (Can't remember what it's called)

BB Roader said...

Anon 14.21, there is paid parking at the Ladywell end of Algernon Rd. not sure where else.

Fattyfattybumbum said...

On Point Hill in Greenwich it is residents permit holders only from 9 until 10am Monday to Friday and free to everyone at all other times. This cuts out commuters parking up early in the morning and leaving the car on a residential street for the day. Thought it was a good solution for Brockers.

Anonymous said...

anon 14.21 - there is 2 hour (i think, or maybe 30 minutes, I don't go around Ladywell memorising road signs . . .) parking at the end of Gillian Street, right by the new chicken shop.

Pete said...

We live on Algiers Road in Ladywell and it and Veda Road are the only two roads in Ladywell that don't have the CPZ. During the week it is pretty much impossible to get parked on either roads owing to the staff from the hospital using it as their car park.

Drives a lot of people nuts. Luckily I don't use the car very often during the week so it hasn't bothered me very many times.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it 2 hours every 5 hours?

Lady in the Well said...

Most of Chudleigh, and all of Phoebeth, Francemary, Arthurdon, Henryson etc etc don't have CPZ's.

You'll be lucky to find a space though.

Anonymous said...

I lived in Hackney before and even with a CPZ I still had to park 2 or 3 streets away from my house, as with all the flats conversions there wasn't enough space on the street anyway. One the benefits of living here is that it doesn't have a CPZ, they are a bureaucratic nightmare and I still ended up getting tickets for parking in it as a resident anyway!

Anonymous said...

"We live on Algiers Road in Ladywell and it and Veda Road are the only two roads in Ladywell that don't have the CPZ"

that's not correct, there are plenty of roads in Ladywell outside of the CPZ - and they are choked with commuter car parking - whereas the roads within the CPZ are sparsely parked by residents. The boundary between the CPZ and non CPZ is graphically illustrated at the top of Vicars Hill where there are road rage incidents occurring regularly and cars speeding to get through the bottleneck that the CPZ has created.

The answer is not to create a larger CPZ zone but to rationalise the present CPZ. However, the rationalisation requires some thought and the Council (in the shape of the mayor, who has all the power) isn't very good at thinking sensibly about things.

Anonymous said...

I think this solution would serve the purpose. Nick, I have to disagree. The CPZ problem is not restricted to Foxberry, other roads on both sides around the station are affected.

Handling is not a challenge as residents can apply for permits and renewals online.

For the inefficient plumber you can buy permits online. I assume that if one is ready this blog, can also master an online order. You can buy as many as you want.

(http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/parking/permits/Pages/Visitor-permits.aspx)

Anonymous said...

It really isn't hard. We're in Marsala and since the introduction of cpz life has become much simpler and much easier to park. My only grumble is the council doubling the price.
It's not hard or particularly expensive to buy day permits - we keep about 5 in the kitchen and use then as necessary.
Parking problems will always occur on the fringes of a cpz until the cpz is expanded far enough from train stations and shopping places. People may be parking stupidly at the top of vicars hill but not illegally - the council need to put yellow lines on the roads.

Anonymous said...

Even before the Ladywell cpz was introduced, early evening traffic was always a nightmare on vicars hill particularly on Fridays.
Always idiots belting down the wrong side of the road - someone flew past me on algernon on wrong side of road the other day when it was empty. There will always be complete idiots driving

Anonymous said...

get rid of money eating car.
oh the horror!

Anonymous said...

My car's quite affordable actually - and it's always there when I want it.

TooManyCars said...

And it's always there when you don't want it, clogging up the streets. There are far too many cars in London.

THNick said...

Anon 16:50 - you cant buy online, you can print off a form. You can then take this to the parking shop with your council tax bill. Oh, you've put that in the bin? Oh well, wait till next year and try again.

Still at least they open on a Saturday now.

Anonymous said...

TooManyCars, well you're always here, clogging up London - what are you doing about it?

TooManyCars said...

I don't stand in the road all day making it difficult for other people to cross safely and for traffic to flow freely. Next!

SAY NO TO CPZ said...

SAY NO TO CPZ

Anonymous said...

you can renew them online. just need to present the documentation the first time.

Anonymous said...

Two points
Have you ever seen a traffic warden in Brokley?
Those who live opposite the station, do you have any idea how rediculous you sound? You want you and your friends to be able to park opposite a STATION!

ED cpz said...

I've sold my car but still support CPZ.

I've experienced CPZ before and was usually able to park close by and never had issues with commuters.

To not have some parking control is to invite people from outisde Brockley to use Brockley as a car park, deny that!

Anonymous said...

anon 18:52 perfectly exemplifies the attitude that a CPZ creates - "I'm within the CPZ I don't give a bugger about anybody outside the CPZ and the problems it causes, and I also don't give a bugger about anyone living within the CPZ who doesn't have a car but wishes to receive car-driving visitors"

An unwisely implemented CPZ engenders a very selfish 'them and us' attitude

Tamsin said...

You don't see traffic wardens in Brockley because they are busy patrolling, and re-patrolling, the roads where there are formal parking restrictions. I think I am right in my understanding (but prepared to be corrected and enlightened) that their remuneration has some sort of commission or bonus worked into it - so obviously it makes more sense to work where you can more easily catch drivers who park in clear breach of regulations of who can park in a certain space (irrespective of whether it is safe to do so) or who overstay their legal time.

Going far and wide to get a few people parked dodgily and dangerously on double yellow lines and corners looks much more like a waste of effort - even though it what is needed to promote safety and ensure traffic flow.

Anonymous said...

I hate CPZ,s just drove through chudleigh road, cpz zone - lots of place to park - if I wanted to park there I'm not allowed - I need a permit, and I don't fit the criteria.

kolp said...

A cpz will add a level of stress to a wide area of Brockley that we don't already have.
I repeat what i always say when this comes up... the search for abn imaginative solution goes on.

The people with cars who live by the station are effectively saying, we have a problem, we want the rest of Brockley to share it.

BB Roader said...

I think that there was much less of a parking problem around the area I have spoken of (Algernon, Shell, Brookbank etc) before any CPZs. I would even venture to say next to no problem at all. However, now a CPZ has been introduced in SOME roads, the problem is getting worse and worse, and it seems inevitable that the cPz will spread further and further up the hill. The problem has been, I would say, entirely caused by CPZs. I am against them in theory but now that they exist elsewhere around here, it feels like it's the only option if we want any chance of being able to park on our own road.

Anonymous said...

If you chose to live near to a station, expect people other than yourself to park there.

D1 said...

Nothing to do with Brockley, but those signs have always confused the hell out of me! What does it actually mean?

So if I park there for 2 hours, do I then have to go away for an hour (making 3 in total) before i can park there again? Or go away for 3 hours? And where exactly does the rule apply? Could I move after 2 hours into another space in the same road? Or does it work in zones or something?

So many questions!! Can anyone explain?!

Anonymous said...

This may have been said before but warrants another (several) mentions - the Lewisham rd end of Breakspears (and possibly Tressilian I don't know) seriously need permits or a CPZ of some kind to stop all the poxy little hatchbacks from the College taking up our spaces.

(i.e: you go to Sainsburys and come back to find 26 dented Peugot 106's with fluffy dice hanging inside runnign the length of the street) and end up parking across the bridge until 4pm when you can move the car back outside your house.

Anonymous said...

The College (student? staff?) cars are and always have been a joke. Especially considering they have an entire car park to use. I frequently find myself lugging bags of shopping home from over the train bridge side of Tressillian to my front door - only to have to run out in the rain again later that evening to retrieve my car back to it's usual & safer parking spot.

Anonymous said...

D1 - The sign says that you can park 2 hours, then you have to leave for 1 hour. In this hour you cannot park anywhere within the boundary of the parking restriction zone. After 1 hour break you can come back and park again.

Anonymous said...

D1 - ... I assume the 9 to 6.30 part is clear to everyone.

Anonymous said...

To say that a parking restriction increases the number of cars is really a clever argument. Could you please elaborate on that?

Anonymous said...

'If you chose [sic] to live near to a station, expect people other than yourself to park there.' - anon, 13June 2012 13:47

Where to start? Choice - not entirely free/easy for many; station - brockley station is unlike most other zone 2 stations which usually have CPZ; other people - local, regional, national, international; park - when and for how long and at what cost...

Thanks for trying but this issue really requires more thought.

BB Roader said...

Anon 16.33, not sure who said that? Perhaps they meant that CPZs increase the number of cars trying to park in non-CPZ streets nearby? Which is definitely the case.

Anonymous said...

BB can you elaborate. Why would it increase? Who would parking outside the CPZ increase? The issue here is not that one or two neighbours park on the other side of the road, the issue is that an increasing number of commuters clog the streets around the station. If the CPZ is sufficiently wide commuters do not come to the area, hence the overall number of cars decreases. Those that could not park on their streets because of commuters would not spill onto other streets. If I can park with a CPZ why would I drive outside the CPZ to park and then walk back home? to save the 40pence a day of a parking permit?

SJW said...

The best solution would be to pedestrianise the roads round the station. Then there would be no parking problems. Kids could play football in the street. It would be great

BB Roader said...

Anon, to be fair there are two different discussions going on - I am talking more about my experience in Brookbank Rd/Shell/Algernon etc, which is a slightly different problem to the Brockley station situation. However, I can confirm that people do park outside my house and walk to Lewisham station, which is 8 min walk, so people are perhaps prepared to park further away than you think in order to save money on the train. Also, I can confirm that people who live in the CPZ further down Brookbank ARE parking further up the hill where there is no CPZ to avoid paying the charge, because I have seen it happen.

NAT said...

I could see the easy and neighbourly Laissez Faire about parking on our road turning sour and curled lippish with the introduction of a CPZ.

It might appeal to people who don't have any relationship with their neighbours to start with.

BB Roader said...

Exactly, NAT. I can't see that the CPZs in our area have brought any real benefits. They have caused more problems than they have solved .

NAT said...

With the added, of a new tax on something free.

I'm close enough to you. I only hope I can convince enough of my neighbours of its futility when our turn comes.

Faux Berry said...

Hmm...

I've got to say that I think I'm still pro a CPZ. Oh, and I know my neighbours pretty well...

BB Roader said...

@NAT, good luck with that - I can't even convince my partner of its futility..!

Anonymous said...

BB - the suggested type of CPZ is clearly designed to stop shrt distance and long distance commuters into specific clogged up areas, near a station for example.

Beside anecdotal evidence, CPZ would almost entirely stop the short distance and occasional commuters (Plenty of Hilly Fielders that come to the station by car). Long distance commuters (those coming from kent) may be more resilient, but statistical evidence show there is a logarithmic relationship between distance and their decision to commute to the area. Beyond a certain distance most of them move somewhere else.

NAT said...

@ Anon 13:56 If Brookbank Road is near a station, then nowhere in London can be far from a station.

Isn't it more likely that the CPZ is designed for the lack of parking facility for the new development at Loampit Vale?

Anonymous said...

Brookbank Road is bloody close to Lewisham, St Johns AND Brockley!

NAT said...

There are roads close to each of those stations without CPZ's

NAT said...

'closer to each' I meant to say

Anonymous said...

This evening there has been a serious incident at the Brookbank Rd/Shell junction, during which a bus driver and his bus were attacked. It is symptomatic of the problems outlined in previous posts about this junction and the surrounding area, and indirectly caused by the council and its CPZs. The police, ambulance and transport incident team have had to be called out tonight. It is a shambles.

BB Roader said...

NAT, I'm not sure there are roads closer to Lewisham station any more without CPZs. The council have seen to that. Ladywell, Brockley and St Johns, yes.

There are no parking restrictions around St Johns and it works just fine as far as I can see.

I do think the CPZs around Algernon and Brookbank must be in anticipation of the new residents in the blocks of flats - so basically, our problem is about to get even worse.

Anonymous said...

This blog is like watching an episode of Father Ted

BB Roader said...

I note that Ricky of Brookbank Road made some very accurate predictions back in early September last year - shame the council doesn't have this foresight:


'Ricky said...
I agree with anon from Shell Road. I live at the top (west) end of Brookbank road. According to the map you've posted, the proposed extension would cover another stretch further down our road, leaving us even closer to the edge of the CPZ than before. Like Shell road residents we weren't consulted first time around and won't be consulted this time.

Before the CPZ parking was quite alright. These days it's mostly fine. occasionally we have to park round the corner but I find that acceptable. But I fear the new proposal will cause havoc at the mini roundabout at shell/Brookbank road. the 484 bus already struggles to get around the corner when cars are parked on the end of the road (i've seen cars have their wing mirrors clipped off and bus drivers having to reverse to try taking the corner again). Displacement from an extended CPZ will only make this worse.

When you're talking about roads this far out, it has nothing to do with people parking up and using ladywell station. i've lived here 5 years and not once seen anyone park and walk off down the hill to the station. No, the only people parking on our road are residents and other residents trying to avoid the CPZ.'

Although I have to say that I have seen people park and walk off down the hill towards the station of late. Because they can't park any closer.

I have contacted the council (several times) about this shambles, and again last night about the attack on the bus driver. I would encourage others to do the same.

BB Roader said...

...and, almost as if to punish me for all my complaints, a 484 has this morning (between 10.05 and 12.55) hit my car, which was legally parked on Shell Road, albeit in a place I wouldn't usually park, precisely because of the buses' issues with getting round the mini roundabout and generally hitting things that get in their way - but, surprise surprise, it was the only space I could find anywhere in the streets surrounding my house and I had a car full of shopping to unload! If anyone saw anything, I'd be grateful for more information.

Anonymous said...

How do you know it was a bus?

BB Roader said...

@anon, I didn't see it but it is a renowned hot spot for the buses as they constantly struggle to get round the corner and tend to clip cars on a regular basis. The position of my car was such that it would only really be a large vehicle turning from Brookbank into Shell that could have hit it (or an insanely bad driver). That, and the fact that my car now has red paint all over it, points to a bus. However, I will be studying my neighbour's CCtV footage later to establish this for sure.

Anonymous said...

Yet another incident on Brookbank Road this evening, caused by an inconsiderate bus driver and a bloody-minded car driver having a stand-off halfway up the road. This resulted in a total of 7 buses being backed up (a few in each direction). When the car driver finally gave in and pulled in to let the bus past, there was such mayhem at the mini roundabout that it was total gridlock for about 30 min until the police arrived, again, to resolve the issue by sending some of the buses round other roads. It's a farce. Is this what we want the police to be spending their time doing?

Anonymous said...

The police turned up?

Anonymous said...

Yes. For the second time in a week. The buses who had met each other on the roundabout couldn't resolve the issue themselves. Apparently buses are not allowed to reverse with passengers on board (something to do with insurance??) so none of them could move. They are also not allowed to go off route. Presumably with police permission they can do both of these things, as this is what ultimately resolved the ridiculous situation.

NAT said...

This mini roundabout has always been problematic for the 484's as BB Roader has pointed out, and unfortunately been 'impacted' by.

Considerably worse recently because of CPZ displacement parking.

What could resolve this?
A further extension of the CPZ?
See how this works?

BB Roader said...

Exactly, NAT. The problem is, I'm now so hacked off that I am beginning to see no other solution. The council isn't going to get rid of the CPZs it has introduced, and the bus route is unlikely to change, although the Abellio driver I spoke to yesterday said that they have been trying to get it changed for some time but TFL have said no. All it would take is to change the bus route in one direction, so the bus going towards Ladywell, for example, goes down fossil and joins Shell that way while the bus going towards Camberwell carries on with the current route up Brookbank. For example. There are other similar solutions. I have written to TFL to request a consultation for a route change anyway. I'm sure it will come to nothing.

BB Roader said...

This wouldn't solve the parking issues, of course, but it would at least alleviate the bus problems exacerbated by the parking issues

BB Roader said...

Police here again this morning. They got a van, which was parked on the roundabout corner, towed away. It took 2 hours. More taxpayers' money. I need to get out more.

ShellRoadParking said...

This is the most recent from the CPZ controller.

The current situation is that Lewisham's parking policy is being reviewed and until a new policy is agreed no further CPZ consultations will be taking place. This will include all aspects of parking including CPZ consultation and permit pricing etc. The parking policy review team is programmed to report back to the Mayor and Cabinet in January 2013 and the new policy will commence in April 2013. The parking policy review will involve public consultation and include a web based questionnaire to get peoples view on a wide range of parking matter. This questionnaire will be publicised in a number of ways including Lewisham Life and the Council's website.

Coming back to local parking matters we are aware of the current parking problems being experienced in your area and the need to consult for CPZ controls. All CPZ consultations (and where required implementation) require suitable funding and also need to be agreed with the Council's Mayor and Cabinet. For a number of years CPZ consultations have been funded through a programme of "prudential borrowing". Prudential borrowing is a central government initiative that allows for borrowing where it can be repaid through cost savings or increased revenue. However prudential borrowing is reviewed on an annual basis and funding, if agreed, will not be available until April 2013. At the same time if funding is agreed there are a number of other areas that also need CPZ consultations. The relative priority of the consultation areas would also have to be agreed by Mayor and Cabinet.

Please contact me if you require any further information or an update on this matter.

Regards

Bill

Bill Tarplett
Bill.Tarplett@lewisham.gov.uk
Policy and Programme Manager
Wearside Service Centre
Wearside Road
LONDON
SE13 7EZ
Tel: 020 8314 2570

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