UBR Street Party [UPDATED]

Homer: Marge, someone squeezed all the life out of these kids. And unless movies and TV have lied to me, it's a crusty, bitter old Dean! 
Dean: Hi there! Hello, I'm Dean Peterson, but you can call me Bobby. I just want you to know if you ever feel stressed out from studying or whatever, I'm always up for some hackey sack. Or, hey! If you just want to come by and jam, I used to be the bass player for the Pretenders. 
Homer: Boy, I can't wait to take some of the starch out of that stuffed shirt.
- The Simpsons, Homer Goes to College

The "Suggest a Topic" thread (already unwieldy) got clogged over the long weekend by a discussion about a street party that took place at the corner of Upper Brockley Road and Lewisham Way on Monday, June 4th. Some people were unhappy with the scale and noise of the party, which took place without permission from the Council.

The last major party at that location (which coincided with the Royal Wedding) was a contributory factor in one of the local shops losing its alcohol license and, eventually, to the police raids that recently took place in the area.

If you wish to discuss this issue, please use this thread from now on, rather than the "Suggest a Topic" thread.

UPDATE

The News Shopper reports:

Ward councillor Cllr Darren Johnson said the party was full of people travelling from outside the area to "impose themselves on the local community". He said: "Obviously this can't be allowed to continue year in, year out. I'll certainly be asking both the police and council officers to look at all possible enforcement actions to stop repeats of it."

A spokesman for Lewisham Council said: "No road closures were granted to hold a street party in the Upper Brockley Road over the Jubilee bank holiday weekend. Licensing officers did visit the site over the weekend but given the nature of the occasion, the fact it took place during the day on a public holiday, and there were no reports of fighting or other anti-social behaviour, it was not thought appropriate to shut the party down."

145 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is there a section of the site where we can set up our own "chat" topics? I know there is one on southeastcentral but it would be good if we could get one here? encourage more discussions, debate, etc ...

Brockley Nick said...

No there isn't. That's not possible. But as you say, that's what our forum, South East Central is for. Click on the button on the right to get to it.

Brockley Jon said...

Indeed. Here's a link to the Brockley section. Sorry anons, there's no anons!

Anonymous said...

It was insanely loud. I live a few doors down (Lewisham Way) and it was literally like there was a full on soundsystem right in my living room, even with the doors closed. Normally, I'm not adverse to such things but this was a little too far me thinks.

BrockleyKate said...

What the hell (sorry for swearing Nick) is going on with Upper Brockley Road? This area has been a problem on and off for as long as I've lived in Brockley. Why are the council and the police not being more proactive with this?

On a related note, I walked past the barbers shop on Brockley Rd which had a loud soundsystem outside it on Saturday (daytime), I was a bit surprised that it was going on but I'm not aware of any previous problems in that location so it's a different kettle of fish to the epic and really serious UBR problem.

I hope our local councillors press the police and the council for an explanation of how the hell (sorry again Nick) this managed to happen, and ruin so many people's weekends.

Helen said...

Was this the loud noise late into the night on Monday? We live on the Nunhead / Tele Hill borders and could hear what sounded like a nightclub late into the night - can't believe the noise can have traveled that far tho?!

Fattyfattybumbum said...

I saw the boom box outside Another Level barbers on Brockley Road on Saturday. There were 2 guys standing drinking and that was it. All that noise so 2 guys can feel they are having a cool party.

The poor family who runs the dry cleaners did not seem happy when I popped in, given their ears must have been ringing to that awful noise all afternoon.

Is there one set of laws in this country for some of us and other laws for the rest as this behaviour must constitute disturbing the peace?

They are quite literally the height of ignorance by most peoples standards.

Anonymous said...

Someone in Arica Road seems to have a mega party every now and then too - VERY loud music well into the night ... is anyone else bothered by this?

Thomas said...

@Anon 6 June 2012 10:28 - Don't really recall many parties that loud except for once, which must be around a year ago anyway, on Arica Road. It usually seems really peaceful except for the odd occasion but in terms of out of control parties I can only really remember one late night that woke me up several times with people leaving.

Tamsin said...

An Anon said "They should join in. Gotta make your own fun in these times of austerity."

For a lot of people it is not fun when the music is so uncomfortably loud, just downright anti-social on the part of the perpetrators. The same party could be had with a tenth of the volume - and it can't be claimed to be a long established cultural issue (and so taboo to breathe a whisper of complaint) because amplified music has only come about in the last forty years or so.

I am also concerned by the long-term health effects on young children. Been slightly dubious about the readiness with which ultra-sound is used - might those babies be turning deaf when they are in their forties? More obvious and proven is the risk to children exposed to industrial scale decibels without protection. There were hundreds of cases gong through the courts in the 1980s (I know because Iworked for the London Agents of the Birmimgham solicitors retained by the Iron Trades Insurers). It is now actionable negligence not to keep the workplace noise level down or, if noise is unavoidable, provide training and effective ear-protection - but who is telling that to parents arranging disco parties for their seven-year olds?

Anonymous said...

When I walked past the party on Upper Brockley Road, the police were there. They were sitting in a police car, parked on the footpath, maybe listening to the music. Apart from the police, there were only about six other people, including the DJ.

sounds of silence said...

Can I suggest that anyone who was affected by this drops an email to the address below:

environmentalhealth@lewisham.gov.uk

or call Environmental Enforcement on 020 8314 2170


and ask what can be done to prevent it happening again the future? I gather there was no way of contacting them at the time, which should also be pointed out (if it's true - they do tell you to leave a message - did anyone actually do this?)

I live quite close to the barbers on Brockley Rd that had the loud music. The last time there was similar noise was the royal wedding last year - I figure if it's only on major royal events then I can live with that, but if it was more frequent I'd be organising a major campaign against them. Sounds like UBR does still have a major issue - if loads of you complain, they'll have to do something (more) about it.

Orlan said...

I hate this attitude of 'Hey everyone it's the Jubilee let's all have a spontaneous eruption of celebration, we're going to close all the roads if we want to and put a load of boats on the river because it'll look nice, why don't you have your own street party... Got a license for that? No. Then close it down it's illegal.'

I stumbled upon the UBR street party on Monday, and I thought it was fantastic. Everyone was really friendly, a BBQ, lots of drinks. They had a guy stewarding making sure the road wasn't blocked. I thought it was a brilliant advert for Brockley.

I just find it deeply depressing that the usual killjoys first reaction is to call the police. Why don't you try living a little? I live between the party and the Wickham Arms, and the music really wasn't that loud. Unless you're hypersensitive and looking for a reason to complain that is.

If it was populated by stalls from Brockley market and had Mumford and Sons playing I'm sure you'd have been saying how fantastic it all was...

Anonymous said...

We live in a city of 7 million people sometimes it's noisy. Get over it.

Mb said...

Anon @12:20 We live in a city of 7 million people, it's crowded and wonderful. It can only work if we are tolerant AND considerate toward each other. It's ain't controversial. It's a community not a collection of individuals who have no obligations toward others, unless that's your philosophy. Rampant selfishness.

Mb said...

...also, the time. Loud music at midday is not the same as loud music at midnight. Again, nothing controversial or difficult in the concept in unless you're intent on layering other ludicrous class war motives on the incident.

For the record, a disruptive market playing Coldplay at full volume at midnight would also be unacceptable so your point fails on its own merits.

Anonymous said...

Orlan comment...re Brockley mkt/ Mumford &Sons...spot on I say!

Tamsin said...

We live in a city of 7 million people so a little consideration for the neighbours is in order.

No-one is saying don't have a party - just a few are asking that the music is not turned up so unecessarily and dangerously loud.

It's surely a big con that bigger and louder = better? I like harmonica music. I did not like what the amplification did to it (hideous distortion) at the St. James street party on Saturday.

sounds of silence said...

Noisy parties are GREAT if you are attending them and enjoying them.

If you are a neighbour who is trying to get on with their life, a noisy party is a horrible intrusion.

If you don't get that distinction, then you are either not very bright, or completely lacking in empathy. Either way, the various rules and regulations were put in place to protect the rest of us from people like you.

MalB said...

There are rules about unacceptable noise levels and they are there to ensure that everybody can live together. To say "it was a party, get over it" simply ignores the feelings of others and the law which is there to protect that.

The times quoted in the Noise Act, where, (in broad terms) noise should not be able to be heard in adjacent premises above the ambient noise level is: 11pm to 7am, and 1am to 7am, though on New Years Eve only.

Lewisham Council does not use the Noise Act for enforecement because of the cost of doing so.

Instead it uses sections 79 & 80 of the Environmental Protection Act 1980. This places a duty on the council to inspect its area from time to time and to respond to complaints of nuisance. Nuisance can occur at any time and it is in the discretion of the council how it should carry out its duties and how quickly it should respond. It says however that it uses the Noise Act timings and sound levels as a guidance and will general enforce to those levels.

There sounds like these were breached in this case: in which case, it is not a matter of whether or not the party was "great", it is the case that the noise it created was wholly out of order.

I also believe that excessive noise levels at other times can be deemed to be a breach of peace, although that requires police intervention and that is more difficult to justify for a one off event. Similarly there is a civil case for disturbance, but that is very difficult to prove unless the noise is repeated frequently. A single party, however loud, would be unlikely to pass the test.

I suppose I should add that I am not a lawyer, so happy to be corrected if I have got this wrong.

biff bifferson said...

when i lived in manor avenue there was the noise from some party which drifted across from malpas road sort of way. you could only hear it in the bedroom though, so we decamped to the parlour where we were fine. can't remember when in the year it was but it returned one year later so i suppose it was a birthday do or something. the point of this story? i like stories.

excessive noise is annoying though and my current nextdoor neighbour has developed a delicious saturday routine where she blasts her crap music out late afternoon/early evening, presumably as a pre-cursor to some disco dancing. it's annoying but given the time of it i can't see the point of complaining.

orlan, you sound like an idiot.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Orian's comment. If it was happening on a regular basis and going on late in to the night then I would agree that something needs to be done. Occasions like the weekend we have just had are one-off and are for ALL to celebrate in which ever way they want to. Now Yawn-off you Brockley Bores!!

Tamsin said...

Might be worth mentioning, though, in a tentative non-confrontational sort of way - now it's summer and we've all got our windows open... sort of thing.

There could be others nearby equally irritated but with less confidence to broach the matter - old, infirm, not speaking English very well. And your neighbour might be blissfully unaware that she is causing any problem when the matter can be resolved by her simply wearing her headphones inside the house for the exercise routine.

It might, of course, rebound horribly - she could get cross and turn the music up louder just to spite you - but I would have thought that unlikely. And saying something is surely better than letting your annoyance gradually build up week on week.

Tamsin said...

Sorry, being a bore, but neither Orlan nor the Anonymii have said why (outside the special atmosphere of a club dance-floor) any music needs to be so loud.

Anonymous said...

That end of Brockley used to be a gigantic badger set, and badgers, with their inherent knowledge of magnetic fields and Ley lines are naturally attracted to this area - the people that inhabit this patch use the power of loud noise to keep the badger at bay - in fact 'upper brockley road' is an ancient name for the badger - so they were here first. We stole the land from the badger, they wish to reclaim it.

biff bifferson said...

tamsin, if that's for me about the neighbour. my mrs asked her to turn it down but she got all arsey spluttering about how she works 60 hours a week (thats her catchphrase). i think she believes that entitles her to do what she likes when she's at home. but she doesnt work for me so the points moot. she has two levels of communication: silence and screetching (not my mrs).
she's just a little gobshite.

biff bifferson said...

again, not my mrs

Tamsin said...

That is extremely tough - on you and your Mrs. I'm sorry, therefore, to have come out with such crumby and patronising sounding advice. I have a regrettably optimistic view of humanity and am always surprised by how very unpleasant people can be.

Set loose the badgers...

Orlan said...

@biff bifferson

I sound like an idiot for not being apoplectic after a one off street party? What a sad little man you are. There is a difference between a neighbour banging out thumping music day after day and a less than annual event. Maybe you should have left your parlour and gone further into the east wing perhaps or maybe holed up in the pantry. I don't begrudge anyone having a rowdy event, I've held a few myself, as long as it's not a regular occurrence.

@Tamsin

You live in Telegraph Hill yet somehow seem to be an expert on UBR apart from what you've read on here have you ever actually experienced any of it first hand? People like loud music and especially outside next to a busy road it has to be loud enough. I'm assuming that you are of an age where you would never set foot in a hectic bar or go to a busy house party, well people like having loud music.

@BrockleyKate

'the epic and really serious UBR problem.' Do you want to overstate this anymore? Supercuts has lost it's license, the Honeypot raided and this was a one off event. What else do you want ethic cleansing?

Apparently this has managed to 'ruin so many people's weekends'?! Even if you could hear it and didn't want to it was one afternoon and evening of a four day bank holiday and that has somehow ruined the whole weekend? You sound deranged. It was the only nice day of the bank holiday so most people probably went out and about after the monsoon of the previous day.

A lot of people in the country are having a pretty torrid time of it and this weekend was a chance for everyone to let their hair down and celebrate the nation etc. Unfortunately people on this website would rather blown things out of all proportion. Complaining that a barbers shop on Brockley Rd was playing music ffs! Some parts of the world you get executed for playing music. Seriously get a life.

Anonymous said...

Agreed with all of Orlan's points. Refreshing to hear a voice of reason for once over the fear, uncertainty and dog whistles we normally get on here.

Some of us don't want to feel like we've already retired, or died.

biff bifferson said...

ah, the cry of the mighty - 'get a life'. what, like yours? well in orlan, you well hung warlord

BrockleyB said...

'One off event'?
This took place over two days for a start. Same thing happened last year on the day of the Royal wedding. Last year people were driven out by the loud music, those who stayed did well to dodge the bullets that were fired later on that evening (is this a legitimate way to 'celebrate' any wedding?)

'One off event' Residents are having to put up with noise, intimidation, violence, drug dealing EVERY week. The 'one off event' is hard to take when every other day is plagued in such a way.

This has only encouraged those who congregate around here to feel that you can do what you like because the rules that apply every where else do noy apply here. Party on ..

Anonymous said...

And if these people want a street party , have it on their street. They don't live here. I saw not a single person there at the party that I recognised that lives on the Parade. Some of the revellers might have a shop there or nearby , but if they really want a street party , have it on their own street. Do you think the residents of Clapham or Deptford or anywhere want me rocking up outside their houses with a massive sound system to spoil their weekends ? maybe I'll follow the sound system guy home next time and set up outside his house for 2 days and nights

The Dog's Whistle said...

Why are people again making a connection between the party and drug dealing?

Brockley Resident said...

Make no mistake, this was imposed on the people who live in the area. We weren't consulted or asked about it, we were given no prior warning, we had no time to make alternative plans, we were not invited. This was not approved by the Council either, although it is not necessary it seems to seek approval from the local authority to rig up a sound system, rattle all the windows in the neighbourhood for TWO days and nights and invite hundreds of people to congregate on your road.
This was completely selfish. The people who organised this should be ashamed of themselves.

Orlan said...

@biff bifferson

With a name like that you're mocking mine! Why are you calling me a warlord? because name is similar to Arkan perhaps? Ignorant and slightly racist, congratulations!

@BrockleyB
'noise, intimidation, violence, drug dealing EVERY week.' Another exaggeration. I've lived about 30 metres away from the shops for 7 years, and I've rarely experienced any of that, and the odd person smoking a joint really doesn't bother me. But then again I'm a friendly person and I say hello to people and use the shops rather than walk straight by with a middle distance stare. In fact the most recent violent thing that happened was when the police smashed all the windows of the shops as they were raiding the place. Obviously there has been the odd problem but as we've seen people love to feel under siege for some reason. So indeed I will party on.

@anon 16.01

The very nature of a street party is that it attracts people to it. I went to a brilliant one in Dalston on Sunday, or should that not be allowed?

Furious said...

When are the local black community going to realise that Brockley has changed and their frequent and blatant illegality in some of their businesses and with this wretched street 'party' will no longer be tolerated!

BrockleyB said...

Orlan, I'm glad to hear you have 'rarely' experienced intimidation, violence, drug dealing etc. in this area. I wish I could say the same. Be sure to say hello the next time we meet.

Anonymous said...

@Furious
Yes Brockley has changed and you're the problem.

Anonymous said...

@furious, stop trying to drag the entire "black community" into this. The defining feature is some people having a noisy party with no consideration for their neighbours, not the "black community" no more than a bunch of white art students having a noisy party are a problem of students as a whole. You don't speak for me, only for your own petty bigotry.

kolp said...

" When are the local black community going to realise that Brockley has changed and their frequent and blatant illegality in some of their businesses and with this wretched street 'party' will no longer be tolerated!"

Interesting to see the racial undertones, regarding this matter now out in the open.

I am sorry having heard both sides of this. I know whose side I am on!!

Anonymous said...

Kolp, you're falling into the trap. Ignore the bigotry both overt and reverse. It's about noise and not being a considerate neighbour. What side are you on noisy parties late at night on a residential street? That's the debate, which side are you on that? Do you think the person being disturbed should just lump it?

kolp said...

Re this occasion, join in.

Anonymous said...

So the neighbours who are being disturbed have no right to peace or an opinion? Very selfish and very individualistic. your letting or two peoples bigotry cloud a rather obvious point about rights and responsibilities. Everyone has the right to party, but at midnight perhaps the party holders should Gove greater weight to people who want to get to sleep.

Brockley Nick said...

I wasn't around, so I'm not going to comment on the rights and wrongs of this issue. However:

1. It is facile to say everyone who objected should just have joined in. There are all kinds of people who live nearby, in all kinds of circumstances. eg: There are disabled people who live next door who couldn't even get out of their house last time, because access to their homes was blocked.

2. It is stupid and offensive to talk about "the black community" as being responsible for this party. Mind you, the "pro" commentators here are guilty of the same gross oversimplification.

Orlan said...

@Furious

Really? Really!!! God this is depressing. I wonder how many other of my 'furious' neighbours share the same opinion.

kolp said...

The reason why, on balance I say join in (on this occasion) was that this wasn't any ordinary weekend it was the Jubilee.

We were ALL given 2 days bank holiday to celebrate and party.

The racist and ignorant comments about the black community expose the division in that area.

What I suggest is that some serious community cohesion is applied to UBR. Communal and shared activities, planned & participated in by all groups of people who have claims on the space.

Brockley Nick said...

"We were ALL given 2 days bank holiday to celebrate and party."

Complete irrelevance if you are not inclined or able to participate and no sensible conversation can take place if that is not acknowledged.

BrockleyB said...

This is not a race issue. Some people would like to make it one it seems. Those people do not impress me. I and others who live here are challenging the behaviour of those who organised both street parties. It had a serious negative effect on residents, many of whom were forced out because they could not endure the noise that we were subjected to for two days and nights. Those who were most affected were older residents and those with young children. It is the case that the vast majority of people who turned up for the 'party' were not people who live here. Local people were not consulted at any stage about this. We know why.

kolp said...

After the manner in which you slandered and abused me on this site. I don't expect reasonable response from you on any matter I post on this site.

kolp said...

"Local people were not consulted at any stage about this."

Kolp said: "...community cohesion is applied to UBR. Communal and shared activities, planned & participated in by all groups of people who have claims on the space."

Brockley Nick said...

Oh give over Kolp. You are hilarious. Always urging others to turn the other cheek (truly, you are a modern day Jesus), but throwing a hissy fit as soon as anyone criticises anything you say.

You need to do two things:

1. Address the points being made rather than sidestepping them

2. Look up the definition of "slander"

Orlan said...

@Brockley Nick

How dare you say I'm guilty of the 'same gross oversimplification' as an out and out racist! I'm a local resident and I enjoyed myself at an unplanned street party on my road, and now you're lumping my opinions in with a bigot!? This just goes to show the ridiculous level of debate that this subject has stooped too, and I'm shocked that you would do this Nick. Very disappointed.

Brockley Nick said...

@Orlan, I didn't make any comment about you. I am talking about the people who characterise this and other debates as being about black v white - as regularly happens in these debates - any complaint is characterised as being a "dog whistle" - eg: "The Dog Whistler" above.

You have made some good points in this debate.

Having said that, you are guilty of oversimplification. eg: "Obviously there has been the odd problem but as we've seen people love to feel under siege for some reason." Two shootings in recent times counts as more than "the odd problem" and is good reason for some people to be worried. You should acknowledge that.

Tamsin said...

Apart from Orlan's mention of traffic noise on the busy road no one has answered the fundamental and much wider question of why any music - of whatever ethnic origin - has to be so loud as to be inconsiderate to the neighbours and render any attempt at conversation impossible. (Except, of course, in the context of discos and clubs where the sole object is to dance and be fully immersed in the sound, thereby achieving a zombie-like euphoria.)

It's a con on the part of the manufacturers of big, heavy, expensive sound equipment. ("...laying out the ready cash. Bigger, better, newer, faster - hear the status symbols clash.")

As was rightly pointed out I know nothing of the UBR event so I was opening the debate wider. I did, though, go to the St. James street party where the music outside was so loud that it reverberated through an exterior wall, an interior wall and two sets of closed doors to impact noticeably on the play reading that was happening in the church at the same time.

kolp said...

Um why are you bringing religion into this? What is wrong with you? I'm mean seriously you seem to be OBSESSED.

Brockley Dogging Society - Excorcism Unit said...

Or POSSESED!!! We are available if required. Colin can eject demon and devils, not so great at goblins.

kolp said...

I think in this case it's a troll.

Anonymous said...

So, another discussion going nowhere except to show how small minded many people are in Brockley, glad I live in ladywell, we're nicer here.

Shame said...

Always thought a street party was meant for the people who actually live on a particular street and flyers are usually given to the residents to advertise it. Does anyone know who was the organiser of this party? Seems several 100 got flyers - shame none of them actually live in UBR.

Anonymous said...

Ladywell, where we nicer. Oh please, a noisy party wold set off just as much ire. I mean what if some people who live in cravans wanted a place to call home? A sober discussion would take place, it certainly wouldn't decend into crude bigotry I bet.

Westsider said...

"So, another discussion going nowhere"

Oh I don't know, we've learned that a lot of people were unhappy and had a few suggestions to make it better next time, ranging from police getting involved from more local people being encouraged to get involved (and Shame just made a very good point).

"except to show how small minded many people are in Brockley",

Err, lively argument and lots of different points of view - your definition of "small minded" is "anyone I disagree with. How ironic.

"glad I live in ladywell, we're nicer here."

Ladywell... Ladywell... hard to draw comparisons because hardly anything ever happens in Ladywell, but... oh yes, there was that business about the traveller site proposal and before that the school expansion proposal. How harmoniously were those things discussed I wonder?

Anonymous said...

Like Nick, I wasn't at the UBR street party so can't comment on any specific issue.

However, my local street party consisted of people in small cliques outside their own homes, a largely deserted middle of the road, minimal effort to welcome newcomers and was over by 16:00. So whilst I can imagine that it would be annoying to have music turned up too high for a long period, or to feel that your local area was appropriated for a party you had no say on, at least it wasn't lame...

Come on people, its happened. You are still alive. Help shape the next one rather than crush it.

Anonymous said...

It probably wasn't promoted because community relations are so bad on UBR that certain people would have done their utmost to see that it didn't happen. I live west side but passed through on Monday and spent a few hours with a beer and chatted to people, the atmosphere seemed really nice with loads of kids around. Can't quite believe that it's descended into this sort of debate on here, truly a shame.

Anonymous said...

The Honeypot was credited for organising the street party (the DJ thanked them multiple times during the evening).

Here are my points.
1. Why does UBR attract non-residents to party on this street? Street parties are meant for people who live on the street.

2. The noise was the only thing that I found unbearable. My house was vibrating from 3-11pm, and I was unwell and unable to leave or get any peace (in any area of the house, even with headphones in to try and drown out the noise).

3. The DJ was asked to reduce the volume, and he did for about 10 minutes before turning it up again. This clearly showed a disregard for local residents who were complaining.

4. However, the people who attended were fine, the DJ ended the night at 11pm which was a reasonable time, and he asked people to leave quietly.

Seriously- if the noise wasn't so loud and hadn't started so early in the afternoon, I wouldn't have bothered about it. I am all for people having fun, but it was too loud and felt disrespectful to locals.

Anonymous said...

I rang council last summer. we have a dude who does parties. 13 houses away, we are getting his music, from 11am, in kitchen , doors and windows shut. phone council noise people, no one on duty til 6/7pm. that's it then. he happily plays amplified music in his yard from 11am-8pm.

Anonymous said...

@Tamsin - the world is not against you, Tesco don't want your first born, sound system manufacturers aren't infiltrating peoples minds with clever mind control to sell people products they don't want. Please stop these ridiculous anti-corporate conspiracy theories.

On the UBR debate, I don't know anything about the issue, but think the longer this debate goes on it will only do more damage. The different portrayals of the party means nobody will agree and there is no way now of checking which is correct (without photo or video evidence). Then there is an anon (or two) intentionally trying to drag racism in it for a laugh, even though neither side has mentioned it. Nick - The best thing to do would be to stop anymore comments on this thread.

Brockley Nick said...

@Anon - re closing the thread, I don't think shutting down discussion of these issues will help. The Council and the Police tried to ignore the problem for a decade or two because the issues were all a bit thorny and uncomfortable. That ostrich policy was a disaster that led us to this point.

One muppet being racist (who has been roundly condemned by everyone else) is not a good reason to close down debate.

HP said...

I was in a car driving on lewisham way when this sound system was on during the day, the volume was horrendous, why doesn't someone make a quick video and post it - really has to be heard to be believed. I also don't understand why the council has not got the power to deal with the volume regardless of the time. Antisocial in the daylight hours is still antisocial.

Anonymous said...

HP - what a stupid thing to say. From the comments here you could believe the party was a family friendly affair like any other street party and has been blown out of all proportion, or you could also believe it was a drug den causing immense suffering to local residents and purposely designed to intimidate. Until somebody has someway of showing what went on, who knows what to believe? There are people commenting here who hadn't been near to the party or affected by it who are just going off other peoples highly biased comments. I could say that the party was solely a ruse for a Brockley Dogging Society meet up and was wall to wall filth, or that it was a day of quiet craft workshops. I wasn't there, but somebody would probably believe it.

biff bifferson said...

not everyone had two days off either.

Welcome to 2012 said...

Why is what HP said "stupid"? HP is a first-hand witness and reports that the noise was exceptionally loud. No-one seems to be disputing that claim - their answer is "deal with it".

Anonymous said...

It's in reference to the line "I was in a car driving on lewisham way when this sound system was on during the day, the volume was horrendous, why doesn't someone make a quick video and post it - really has to be heard to be believed" which is dripping in sarcasm to the comment above about knowing what it was like "without photo or video evidence"

Welcome to 2012 said...

No, I think you are reading things in that aren't there.

The facts aren't really in dispute like you say they are:

No one disputes that there was a party.

No one disputes that it was very loud.

No one disputes that the party was organised by people who don't actually live on that street and it's well known that people who don't live there use that street as a hang-out. That's been acknowledged by the police and the Council.

The argument isn't about what happened, but whether what happened is acceptable or not.

Understandably, opinions differ.

Anonymous said...

Why is there a trend on here for belitting peoples views by saying that "only one person" said this or that? A) it's untrue as several people have mentioned some of the possible factors at play here and B) are opinions by one person not valid?

The thing about dog whistles is that as soon as you call them out, the whistler has a ready-made defence that they were claiming nothing of the sort. That is the nature of a dog whistle.

long time lurker said...

I think everyone should read Anon 21:51's post.
They were a. ACTUALLY there and b. is a balanced, reasonable opinion (yes it was very loud and anti-social - but it finished at 11pm and the people were nice)
When i came home from the pub at about midnight on Sunday I didn't notice anyone still hanging around or music playing otherwise we would have probably joined in

HP said...

Welcome to 2012, Thankyou. Anon 11.30 my earlier comment was not sarcastic. All sorts of unacceptable behaviour is dealt with, why isn't this.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe people are using this space to moan about people near them who have parties 'every now and then'. Where's your love of life?! People are allowed to have parties once in a while... I understand the stress caused by it being regular and as loud as the first posting, for example, but really, the lot of you that are chipping in with 'yeah we have people on our road that do it once in a while, ruins our weekend' - all I can honestly say is get a grip and have some fun... noisy neighbours once in a while isn;t actually that bad an affliction... I think you've all been spoilt rotten with great neighbours and have little to compare to, it's all I can assume, I think of the unfortunate neighbours I've had in my time and a party now and then is nothing to get up in arms about.

BrockleyKate said...

Is it true that the council refused an application for permission for this event?

BrockleyKate said...

Is it true that the council refused an application for permission for this event?

biff bifferson said...

the public should never be allowed to do anything because they're just awful. and that's my official stance

Brockley Resident said...

It is true that the council refused an application for this event.

kolp said...

We can't sweep race under the carpet here.

The people against the party and calling for police involvement are effectively calling for black people to be criminalised.

I am concerned that there is very little talk about compromise. Just zero sum solutions.

It's revealing.

BrockleyKate said...

If the council refused permission for the party, then it seems to me that:
a) It was the council's responsibility to ensure that it didn't go ahead; and
b) The people who held the party in defiance of the council were quite clearly in the wrong. Finding it hard to see how people can contest that, really.

Rick said...

And why did the council refuse permission? From what I saw it was well run had a nice atmosphere but was fairly loud. If it did have a license then it would have been easier to enforce a decibel limit. The council made a rod for their own back with this, and it's hard to see it as anything else but discrimination.

biff bifferson said...

behave yourself kolp.

BrockleyKate said...

I am assuming that they refused permission because of the long and serious history of trouble in this particular location. And that to me seems like a pretty reasonable and well-justified rationale.

Anonymous said...

"The people against the party and calling for police involvement are effectively calling for black people to be criminalised"

So your assuming that only black people want to party loudly so by calling the police you're criminalising black people? Some people no doubt are more offended because it's a black thing but to assume that people who want some consideration from their neighbours are are essentially racist is a wild assumption. It's a post-hoc justification for your own conclusions about peoples behaviour.

Anonymous said...

"The people against the party and calling for police involvement are effectively calling for black people to be criminalised"

So your assuming that only black people want to party loudly so by calling the police you're criminalising black people? Some people no doubt are more offended because it's a black thing but to assume that people who want some consideration from their neighbours are are essentially racist is a wild assumption. It's a post-hoc justification for your own conclusions about peoples behaviour.

HP said...

Wondering how it would easier to enforce a decibel limit if the council didn't prevent it without a licence

Anonymous said...

Two days of very loud music could be very damaging to people in special circumstances. But these people never considered that. At the end of the day, they're just doing it for a bit of joy!!?! They can't even border to lower their music when requested? And all these for a very small minority of about 6 people including the DJ? It's not a street party with majority consent, cause it did apply for a licence and decided to enforce it on all the people in UBR. It more like an illegal restaurant party indulging in anti-social behaviour, thinking they could argue their way out of it by calling it fun, cool etc. But the people in UBR must stand up themselves by raising their concerns and make the council aware so that they're forced to act. Remember, always by writing.

kolp said...

Furious's words exposed the undercurrents of what's going on here (for some at least), whilst I don't agree with what this person said, I appreciate that have put their views across openly.

It is important quietly held (mis) perceptions are brought out into the open and discussed.

The situation in UBR has a racial dimension to it. I think that is undeniable.
"So your assuming that only black people want to party loudly"
Of course not. I'm saying involving the police for this particular matter is likely to lead to people who are black* being criminalised when I believe the matter could be dealt with communally.

Was the music too loud?
Given the amount of people it seems to have antagonised. The answer is yes.

Why was the music so loud?
I liken it to church bells; loud to attract people to come on over and participate. Sadly it had the reverse effect largely. Probably down to a cultural misunderstanding.

I guess many people aren't monarchists here but i think it's a real shame that the area had so few organised street parties. Putting the royal thing aside this was an opportunity for people to get together.

People want to party to kick back relax in a carefree like manner from time to time. There's a bachannalian tradition in British culture too.

*there is an over representation of black males in the prison system as it is. Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/oct/11/black-prison-population-increase-england

NAT said...

'I Liken it to Church Bells...'

Think Trumpets and walls of Jericho and you're a bit nearer the mark.

Anonymous said...

"Given the amount of people it seems to have antagonised. The answer is yes."

nonsense - a few people have made critical comments about the noise here, probably a dozen at most - given the amount of people who live within earshot of the event I think that's probably an extremely small proportion

Anonymous said...

we'll see how many have complained in due course..

kolp said...

"there were no reports of fighting or other anti-social behaviour,"

"Obviously this can't be allowed to continue year in, year out".

"impose themselves on the local community" <- What does that mean?

Anonymous said...

'Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs' Amos 5:23

Anonymous said...

As always those responsible have no 'respect' for those who live here... legal action is now under review as no permission was granted and residents of the area as well as those in the adjoining building, those responsible will soon have have to answer to a private legal battle that breaks the rules of those who have signed agreements to live here, a business that supported the street party, the council, as well as any tenant involved who broke and renta/leasehold agreement. The battle has just begun.

kolp said...

"The battle has just begun." well have fun battling your enemies, cause this seems to be a bit a game for you.

Anonymous said...

@kolp

It is obvious you are in support of the street party of which you are aslo likely to live outside of the corner where the noise levels were unbearable.

Keep in mind this street party was not authorised or permitted, though the police decided not to action for health and safety reasons (they did not want violence), it is clear that those involved don't care about how it effects others.

If the police decide to get involved it would become a 'racial' issue, but those who had to deal with it had to suffer for two full days of noise.

Stop crying because it was a 'black' because those of other races have had to endure pain and suffering. Don't tell me this street party was legal, it was not. The police and the council should have shut it down. But because they were afraid to 'offend' because of 'racial' issues it was allowed to continue.

Anonymous said...

@kolp The game has only begun for those that had this 'illegal' street party. Why should I not fight for my disruption in quality of life?

I have no enemies except those that break the rules of life, which include my personal well being. It is not a game.

The game is for you @kolp because perhaps you took part in the action that disturbed so many. Why support such 'illegal' action? Are you one who was involved in this anti-social behaviour and un-authorised street party? Speak up - I have a solicitor waiting!

Anonymous said...

Just my personal experience - I walked past two street parties in the neighbourhood. The first was on Upper Brockley Road by the Honey Pot, on my way to the Brockleywood Film Night at the Arthouse. It must have been around 7pm since that was when the screening started.

The music was loud but not so loud that round the corner at the Arthouse, we couldn't hear the films that played for over an hour. There was nothing threatening about the atmosphere on the corner, seemed friendly with people of different ages. There was some outdoor cooking which smelt great, and if the weather was nicer, I'd have been tempted to join in for some food.

We walked through another street party in Ladywell on Monday evening, and it looked like the same sound system (but what do I know.) But the whole street was participating - lots of bunting, marquees, and pop up tents and food including a barbecue. The music was just as loud, but people were having fun together.

I don't know the context behind either of these scenes, whether one had permission and the other did not. But the music levels were similar.

kolp said...

What I'm in support of is people having good community relations.

Why can't people speak to each other, rather than getting the state involved all the time.

I wasn't at the location when the noise was on. I did hear & see the sound system at Brockley Road, i couldnt stop to enjoy what was going on it was loud but not awful.

But as i've said any noise imposed on people will cause disturbance.

Look at this story-> http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/9740889.Woman_constantly_woken_up_by_noisy_neighbour_having_sex_calls_for_soundproofing

Is this what we want the state involved in?

Anonymous said...

Kolp, do you actually know about the long-running history of this location?

kolp said...

I do, but can you kindly give yourself name, before i continue this conversation. Thank you

Anonymous said...

Well if you understand the history of this location then you will understand why the situation is far beyond the usual community-relations situation, in which your advice would be relevant or useful.

Anonymous said...

Saying that "this location" has a problem is no better than saying a particular race has a problem. STOP DOING IT.

Anonymous said...

"anonymous said @kolp The game has only begun for those that had this 'illegal' street party. Why should I not fight for my disruption in quality of life?

I have no enemies except those that break the rules of life, which include my personal well being. It is not a game. "

I'm astounded by the way you speak. You think a street party ending at 11pm is a serious detriment to the quality of your life... Take a moment to think about the quality of life of the majority of people on this planet, reflect on all the luxuries and qualities of your life, and maybe consider some perspective on the situation...

'Those that break the rules of life...' What rules are they? Sorry but life doesn't follow rules, to quote the obvious, you can't always get what you want. Yes there are boundaries, but you also need some rationality.

This thread mostly seems to be about the middle classes throwing their toys out of their collective pram. If this was happening every weekend, even every month, my sympathies would be more in line with yours perhaps, but at the moment it seems like everyone is bickering over a one-off event in which no anti-social behaviour occurred and which was similar to events happening all over the country at the time... basically railing against people having fun.

I do recognise that this had been turned down for licensing by the council and yes if you feel that strongly, contact the council, complain. But ultimately it's done, why do people feel the need to contact their lawyers? Why are you talking as if you've been defiled and abused?!

I have never so strongly meant the words when I say, have you all really nothing better to do?

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...
Well if you understand the history of this location then you will understand why the situation is far beyond the usual community-relations situation, in which your advice would be relevant or useful."

Why don't you enlighten us a bit more about your thoughts on the history of this location and it's situation? Genuinely intrigued by this.

NAT said...

18:23 If you're genuinely intrigued then the answer is at hand. Try the label cloud reference Upper Brockley Road and then you'll be up to speed.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 18:21

Looks you're trying to raise the point that street party is the ONLY kind of fun known to you! Obviously not. But it looks more like you're one of the affiliates trying to defend your ever declining drug business and your dumb marketing stunt! People in Brockley, please stand up for what you believe is right. Write, write and write to the council!! At the moment, the number of complaints is still very low!

Anonymous said...

Haha, no I am not an afiliate in any way. I just find this whole debate amusing and disappointing. I'm not getting more involved because like I said, I have much better things to do.

Anonymous said...

Also.

I actually haven't in any way raised the point that partying is the only way to have fun. It is one way of having fun. I repeat, we are talking about a street party, within reasonable party hours, on a weekend that street parties were going on up and down the country.

Marketing stunt for a drug business? Do you realise just how paranoid you sound?

Unfortunately you're being purposely obtuse to my points, I just cannot see any rationality or perspective in the level of anger here. Just a total lack of tolerance or acceptance of others in your community.

Anyway. Ciao.

Anonymous said...

Also.

I actually haven't in any way raised the point that partying is the only way to have fun. It is one way of having fun. I repeat, we are talking about a street party, within reasonable party hours, on a weekend that street parties were going on up and down the country.

Marketing stunt for a drug business? Do you realise just how paranoid you sound?

Unfortunately you're being purposely obtuse to my points, I just cannot see any rationality or perspective in the level of anger here. Just a total lack of tolerance or acceptance of others in your community.

Anyway. Ciao.

Anonymous said...

Let's kick racism out of Brockley - starting with the dog whistlers.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, no license granted and that translate to no agreement reached with the majority.

I think the Brockley you knew has changed dramatically. If you can't go with the majority, then my advise to you is to find a place that suits you better? Really, please don't try so hard to put up with the rest of us.

NAT said...

Oh I don't think you need to look for anything as subtle as dog whistles judging by some posts, but while you're about it dear 21:04 could you kick out excessive and unneighbourly sound volume as well?
Thanks.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 20:56

Sadly, the only STREET PARTY known to you is the type that accompanied with dangerously loud music, that only cater for 6 people that doesn't even live there and upset all the rest of the people living not just in UBR but the whole area!

And if there's no music LOUD enough to be destructive, it's "kill joy" for you or maybe even your business! You can't deny it from the way you said it.

Anonymous said...

Where has the information that "they didn't live there" come from?

NAT said...

You know different?

Anonymous said...

Simple, they all came driving a car? You wouldn't be so dumb driving your car there if you live in the area? And I guess you haven't any points to mention here rather than being pedantic?

NAT said...

Leave it. It's obvious that many of the Anons are coming to this thing fresh with quite laudable aims like taking the side of the underdog and 'stamping out racism', a little reading of the backstory might help, but they will have their say.

Anonymous said...

Leave it? NAT do you know what blog is for in the first place?

NAT said...

I meant that the point would be lost.
That was 'leave it' in the sense that the point was so agreed on that it wasn't in dispute.

Anonymous said...

"If you can't go with the majority, then my advise to you is to find a place that suits you better? Really, please don't try so hard to put up with the rest of us."

I'm not the one p'd off with living with anyone. I'm not the one complaining... I'm saying chill out and stop acting like a street party is armageddon.


"Sadly, the only STREET PARTY known to you is the type that accompanied with dangerously loud music, that only cater for 6 people that doesn't even live there and upset all the rest of the people living not just in UBR but the whole area!

And if there's no music LOUD enough to be destructive, it's "kill joy" for you or maybe even your business! You can't deny it from the way you said it."

You are clearly quick to make a lot of judgements, and again, so much anger in your post. Over a street party on the jubilee weekend. My business? I'm an NHS nurse! I don't know who on earth you think I am, but I think your judgemental attitude is transparent in your posts.

"you can't deny it from the way you said it!" - er, yes I can? You clearly have a very pre-concieved notion of who I am!

Anonymous said...

@NAT 12:53

"Think Trumpets and walls of Jericho and you're a bit nearer the mark"

An attack carried out for what they believe to be their territory by playing loud music? Childish?

Anonymous said...

When it effects my quality of life it is my business. Those who held the party were not authorised to do so. But to illustrate, this is an example of how Britain doesn't have the balls to enforce the law, the riots of last year proved the lack of power the state and police have, and the organisers here knew they could do what they like, and get away with it.

I work hard to be middle class, I don't get anything given to me, I support myself.

Perhaps you were one of the many who took part but doesn't actually live here, littered, drank and pissed on the streets and gardens of those that live here, then went on your way home, far away from it all.

If the organisers, the honeypot, had any decent respect they would have cleaned up afterwords, instead the area was littered for days. They have no respect, they show no respect.

N Raged said...

I just walked over hilly fields and someone is obviously planning another party with loud music and drugs. (I saw several 'barrels' which I suspect contain 'ale' - a form of alcohol.)

I live just off hilly fields & nobody asked my permission to hold this party. If you know the history of this site, then you know that it will be full of young people. It will be very loud, people will be drinking and smoking; and middle aged people like me will not like it if we walk past.

Let's not wait for the council to fail to prevent this barbarity. I am calling on all middle aged and elderly Brockleyites to join me in flash mobbing this party and closing it down.

Malpas Ian said...

I just walked through Nunhead cemetery for my usual peaceful walk in an oasis of calm in the big bad city and encountered loads of croc wearing very noisy people shouting Tarquini and Jacaster get off the graves, setting up stalls and trying to sell illicit herbal and home baked substances, blocking my path and harassing my dogs!

Call the police and get this outrageous intrusion into a public place of peace closed down before it gets out of control!

Malpas Ian said...

I just walked through Nunhead cemetery for my usual peaceful walk in an oasis of calm in the big bad city and encountered loads of croc wearing very noisy people shouting Tarquini and Jacaster get off the graves, setting up stalls and trying to sell illicit herbal and home baked substances, blocking my path and harassing my dogs!

Call the police and get this outrageous intrusion into a public place of peace closed down before it gets out of control!

Anonymous said...

I've just been down to Brockley Cross and found one company selling "muffins" - an energy-boosting substance that the locals are addicted to. These muffins come with a hideous markup, and people will borrow or sometimes even work for money to buy them. £3 gets a very small amount of muffin that doesn't last most users more than a few hours. Even simple staples like bread are hiked up in price in these parts, and users feel compelled to comply with the sellers demands.

kolp said...

Tbh after 00:04, and 'the straight out of the ghetto "I work hard to be middle class" rant, the thread 'jumped the shark'. Surrealism was the only way forward.

NAT said...

You should be right at home then Kolp; Bit of a giraffe in flames of a post you've got there.

kolp said...

Beware of phantom limbo dancers Nat

NAT said...

I have my hands full bewaring religious devil's advocates Kolp.

kolp said...

Neil Armstrong

Shame on you. said...

Some people on here will probably be very pleased to here that the plumbers, Supercuts and The Honeypot have all been issued with immediate closure notices, and are now closed. According to Twitter this is also happening in other Caribbean owned shops and takeaways across the borough today. Congratulations on the ethnic cleansing everyone.

Anonymous said...

The day the dog whistlers won. Very sad :-(

Anonymous said...

Jesus really! Absolutely scandalous and depressing.

Anonymous said...

"ethnic cleansing"? Get over yourself you mung! Criminals got busted. Boo-hoo.

kolp said...

Wow. If this is true then things in UBR were as toxic as I suspected.

Burns said...

Yeah the plumber was probably running an extortion racket... idiot. You obviously know nothing of this area or of the notices that are on the doors. It basically boils down to, these shops attract the wrong type of people, so the easiest thing to do is close then all down. Which incidentally now leaves the parade looks semi derelict. The atmosphere down there is pretty stunned at the moment but I imagine soon enough it will turn to anger, and local race relations will become incendiary. Especially as I saw an idiotic white woman walk past and loudly exclaim 'good riddance'.

Anonymous said...

Oh please - don't come the innocent bollocks. We all know what was going on there, been going on for years. Their time just ran out.

Burns said...

It's not 'the innocent bollocks', yeah so people smoked some weed, really doesn't bother me, living next to a derelict stretch of shops does.

Anonymous said...

Weed and the rest. It might not bother you but it bothers others and - suprise! - it's illegal.
The shops will hopefully re-open.

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