180 Brockley Road plans submitted

The application to redevelop 180 Brockley Road (the area of land currently occupied by the MOT garage directly behind Coulgate Street) have been submitted, following a consultation earlier this year. The massing has been refined (and improved in our view) and new visuals produced, but even more importantly, we now have some detail about how the street level space will be used. The application is for:

The demolition of the existing buildings on the site of 180 Brockley Road SE4 and the construction of a part two/ part three/ part four storey block , comprising 482 sq m commercial floor space (Use Classes A1 (Shops), A2 (Financial and Professional), A3 (Restaurants and Cafes) & B1 (Business), 3 studio flats, 11 one bedroom, 9 two bedroom and 2 three bedroom self-contained flats, together with refuse and cycle storage, associated highway and public realm works.

The plans include a number of options for the layout of the street level and it is heartening to see that provision has been made for restaurant and cafe space, alongside the shops. Providing a mix of the two will give this development - and this part of Brockley - the best chance of attracting a thriving collection of businesses. There was the risk that we could have ended up with one big unit, suitable for nothing other than another supermarket, within a stone's throw of Nisa and Costcutter. Not that there is anything wrong with a supermarket, but it would have denied us the opportunity to create a more diverse centre.

The Design and Access statement also includes confirmation that the part-pedestrianisation of Coulgate Street could form part of the wider community benefits. They say:

Although not part of the planning application for the site of 180 Brockley Road we have included indicative proposals for the re-organisation and landscaping of Coulgate Street, between Brockley Road and Foxberry Road. 
These proposals were discussed and elaborated with Lewisham’s Transport, Planning and Conservation Department and BXAG and include: 

• Level and shared surfaced street environment for pedestrian and vehicular use with pedestrian priority 
• Enlargement of dedicated pedestrian pavement area in front of station parade to allow cafes, restaurant and shops to spill out onto the street 
• Tree lined street environment as part of soft landscaping strategy 
• One-way vehicular traffic with entry from the north from Brockley Road and exit to the south onto Foxberry Road and further east back onto Brockley Road; 
• Reduced on street car parking spaces on one side only, limited short-term parking for customers of the local commercial premises, drop-off and pick-up point for the station and car parking spaces for the local mini-cab company Speedicars.

86 comments:

Ben H said...

Nice.

Anonymous said...

Is there any mention of how long it will take to build?

I hope the restaurant and cafe space has frosted glass and a great contrasting colour scheme...

Anonymous said...

Sorry but I think that this is hideous. They should either do something in a Victorian style or something genuinely bold and modern. Instead it looks like a research facility. It's absolutely soulless, not something we should have as the new centre of Brockley.

Mb said...

I tend to turn off at the cut 'n' paste standard objections to anything without a pitched roof. We've not had:

What about school places
Not enough bike parking
Not enough/too much car parking (delete as applicable)
Not enough affordable units
Too small, no good for families
Random socio/philosophical musings such as "arrogant" etc
Egotistic architects
Designed by Satan

Anonymous said...

I like the hot air balloons...

Liam-h said...

does it come with balloons?

Anonymous said...

i bet the developer wouldn't turn tesco away if they wanted the ground floor, nothing like a blue chip client

Anonymous said...

Ugly and unnecessary

Anonymous said...

Absolutely hideous. And there is certainly not that much space on the front! Another depressing boxy development

Brockley Nick said...

"Unnecessary" is a rather empty criticism? What does it mean? Are new homes unnecessary? I suppose so, so long as we're all happy to squash up a bit more.

Does it matter that new shops and places are not "necessary"? Almost everything in life is not necessary. But we do it anyway, because it's sterile and we like the taste.

Ed (cpz) said...

I think it's rather smart and if the finishing/materials are high quality the grid will nicely offset the curvature of the barge. Agree RE massing and like softening trees although this should happen regardless. Most posters will have not seen many developments from sketches to snagging so comments will be largely irrelevant. Hilarious balloon gags btw.

Anonymous said...

It will bring good businesses to the area, shame about the murals, but the garage is an eyesore.

Anonymous said...

do you really think we are going to need to 'squash up, a bit with the masses of new homes being built in and around Lewisham at the moment? Unnecessary because it is in my opinion whether it be 'open ended' criticism in your opinion or not. I have lived in Brockley for 41 years and I personally don't like it, sorry.

Brockley Nick said...

"do you really think we are going to need to 'squash up, a bit with the masses of new homes being built in and around Lewisham at the moment?"

Yes, that's not my opinion, it's fact that dwelling sizes in London are shrinking, it's a fact that the population has grown significantly and it's a fact that all official forecasts anticipate sustained and rapid population growth in London. So either new homes or more of us squeeze in to the existing ones.

"Unnecessary because it is in my opinion whether it be 'open ended' criticism in your opinion or not. I have lived in Brockley for 41 years and I personally don't like it, sorry."

Yes, fair enough you don't like it. That's clear.

Anonymous said...

I love it and can't wait till this is built - it will bring much-needed life and a bit of class to the area.

Anonymous said...

I am glad we have agreed to disagree Nick. So how do the businesses already on Coulgate st and owners of the little cottages (that will be swamped behind this structure) feel about the plans? Any idea? Just curious..

Anonymous said...

It is a tad like a correction facility, no soul

Oli said...

I'm a bit confused to exactly where this is and what is being demolished (proposed)

Is there a handy map with a red outline on it?

I hope the block would look a little less 'blocky' in real life though.

Anonymous said...

How can you tell it has 'no soul' what does that mean? How does making look Victorian imbue it with 'soul'? Someof our most famous prisons are classically Victorian. I don't understand, I really don't.

A Game Of Two Halves said...

Not too bad - although a lot depends on the quality of the materials. I really hope they don't skimp - otherwise it'll look dated and crap within a few years. If they use top quality stock it could look rather slick.

However, it'd be nice if there were some way of introducing a little more character into it... I like the roof garden idea on the right hand side (even though the rendering looks crap). Just something to tie it into the quirkiness of Brockley, rather than a nice but fairly anonymous development dropped into the centre.

1-1 going into extra time.

Anonymous said...

You need to spend some time nosing through the application linked. Maps, outlines and details of materials included.

Ross said...

"I am glad we have agreed to disagree Nick. So how do the businesses already on Coulgate st and owners of the little cottages (that will be swamped behind this structure) feel about the plans? Any idea? Just curious.."

hello.

the developers met with me and another business owner on the street quite a long while ago to discuss it. from a business point of view i don't see too (m)any downsides and the possible development of coulgate street would be fantastic. it's unclear at present what the commercial premises will be but more affordable commercial space in viable areas is only a massive positive in my eyes.

as for the cottages i can't remember exactly how it worked but i think only one of them at present has a back window (could be wrong) and that they had designed for that not to be blocked. as long as it's built and maintained to a decent degree i'm not sure it's any different to living behind the MOT center?

Anonymous said...

"Yes, that's not my opinion, it's fact that dwelling sizes in London are shrinking, it's a fact that the population has grown significantly and it's a fact that all official forecasts anticipate sustained and rapid population growth in London. So either new homes or more of us squeeze in to the existing ones."

Brockley is not the Kings Road, Nick.

Don't infringe too much on Brockley living space, that's why we came here. WIDE OPEN BROCKLEY - Fact

Mb said...

It's not a wide open space though is it? It's an MOT garage on a fairly busy road..

Brockley Nick said...

Everyone moved to Brockley because an MOT garage occupied its town centre. Fact.

Tim said...

BRING IT ON

Warren Davies said...

Build a Cinema instead...it is a unimaginative clone/kit building and the architect must be frustrated by the limitations of their clients brief. Unfortunately we can only hope that they plant enough vegetation to soften it's potential for boredom. Property pornography creates NIMBYS. As for Victorian hommage..get a life.

Warren Davies said...

Build a Cinema instead...it is a unimaginative clone/kit building and the architect must be frustrated by the limitations of their clients brief. Unfortunately we can only hope that they plant enough vegetation to soften it's potential for boredom. Property pornography creates NIMBYS. As for Victorian hommage..get a life.

Tim said...

A cinema? Get real Warren

Warren Davies said...

Used to be one Tim..

Warren Davies said...

Read David Lodge

Warren Davies said...

Merely a suggestion. I am quite real.

Anonymous said...

Pah! Rubbish! They are just brick blocks!

What is it with contemporary architects?

Revelonanon said...

I think it looks great.

However a major problem is that, since there is no Controlled Parking Zone in Brockley, the development cannot be 'car-capped'. This means that the Council has no means of preventing overspill parking from the development in surrounding streets, which will result in more congestion and poorer air quality affecting the health of our children.

We urgently need to get together and campaign for a CPZ before it's too late and all the spare land in Brockley has been taken up by large residential developments.

Anonymous said...

We urgently DO NOT need a CPZ which will do nothing for the area apart from making living in it more expensive, less friendly, more inconvenient and no easier to park.

If they cannot create enough car-parking for the development then, rather than blighting the rest of our lives, they should not build it.

In fact, they shouldn't build it in the first place. It is ugly and boxy. Designed by those who only use a computer to draw straight lines, commissioned by those who don't want to pay for anything remotely decorative, and modelled by somebody who never got past building with the square Lego (c) blocks.

Revelonanon said...

Anonymous, I'm sure that if you were fully aware of the dangers to health, particularly children's health, posed by vehicle emissions, you would not be so quick to dismiss a CPZ as doing nothing for the area.

Your alternative vision of every block of flats having a vast car park, even when next to the station with excellent public transport links as this one would have, sounds like a recipe for gridlock and abysmal air quality. Not a Brockley I'd want to live in...

Anonymous said...

If you were that bothered by your children's health then maybe you shouldn't live in a city with the worst air quality in Europe.

Anonymous said...

Direct link to the plans:

http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/ACOLLATEDOCS/90851_2.pdf

One massive commerical unit (which looks ideal for a supermarket) one medium sized one and one tiny one.

So the prospect is only for 3 more shops etc from all this?

Anonymous said...

The drawings in the plan do seem to imply supermarket to me, of is that space designed to be cut up, rather than leased as one unit?

Malpas Simon said...

Fantastic that Coulgate Street will now be dual pedestrian/vehicle friendly, I thought campaigning for full pedestrianisation was always going to be fruitless what with the taxi company and people needing to be picked up from the train etc. Glad we got this far!

I know this comes a little late but surely the best road to pedestrianise would actually be Foxberry Road between Coulgate street and Brockley Road?! We obviously need to look after the current businesses, and giving them outside seating can only benefit everyone. Surely we should show the prospective new businesses the same courtesy by creating a similar but FULLY pedestrianised area for them which would also benefit the Barge. Who will miss that small section of Foxberry Road really? I cross it everday and were i to close my eyes each time in a russian roulette style am fairly confident i would not be run down! (i may walk into a parked ACE van though)

Orijimal said...

Fingers crossed we get a gym. Hot air ballooning doesn't tone as much as you'd think.

Anonymous said...

Evening standard article of yesterday - positive on Brockley but idiotic re price per sf. Prices around 350 per sf not 800 as stated (!).

Anonymous said...

Stalin would've liked this design.

Anonymous said...

The CPZ debate has been had, no one wants it, accept it, shut up and go away!

Anonymous said...

Private housing and no tractor factory. No he wouldn't.

Fattyfattybumbum said...

Balancing our demands for the design with the need for it to be commercial viable would always be difficult. But i think it looks OK. I would have liked more open space on the Brockley Road side so those new retail units could put tables outside if they so wished but it looks like it will be a tight footpath at best.

Either way Brockley is improving, I just hope it retains it community minded arty shabby but slightly trendy feel ;)

Anonymous said...

Sorry Nick, wasn't paying attention when I said WIDE OPEN SPACES. Thought we were talking about the development further back.

Point taken.

Brockley Nick said...

No worries, thanks for clarifying.

Anonymous said...

What's happening to Brockley park cars? Great garage - efficient and honest. Would hate to loose them!

Anonymous said...

LOVE.

Anonymous said...

Check us out with our own new boulevard in Brockley.

Anonymous said...

The MOT centre was an honest business that seems to have been forgotten in all this. What for them?

Brockley Nick said...

I believe the MOT business has known about this for years and made plans to relocate nearby.

Anonymous said...

But where to? We need honest MOTs for our rollable fare.

Brockley Nick said...

Not sure. If you find out, let us know here.

There is a good garage on Geoffrey Road and I think Kar Klinik, also on Brockley Road is rated too.

Anonymous said...

It looks like 16 Coulgate street has been approved too this year ( DC/09/72245/X) ... this has a shop at the bottom too .. should be a nice village when all this is complete.

Faux Berry said...

"The CPZ debate has been had" and there were two sides who couldn't agree. Therefore I will claim I am right and all people who continue to consider it are idiots! Oh, hang on, that's not how you pursuade people is it, I got mixed up.

Mb said...

@coopersbake we're asking about units in the Brox. That will cause an aneurysm to anyone looking for a good honest loaf of pappy white sliced. Can you imagine? A wild fired oven? Just need to reinstate the smithy (and cholera) that used to occupy the timber yard site and we'll be proper 19th Century

Anonymous said...

RE: DC/09/72245/X

has this been featured on Brockley Central before?

http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/ACOLLATEDOCS/48567_4.pdf

Now that the platform extension is finished I guess access is no longer needed through that patch of land, freeing the way for this build.

Anonymous said...

whatever happens, it'll look dreadful - you simply have to look at anything else that's being built or is recently finished to get a good idea - there's no quality of any kind in this 'local' kind of building these days - created simply to provide an income for developers who have no long-term interest in what they're doing.

Anonymous said...

Wasn't the cinema where the car wash is (down near the Esso garage)?

Anonymous said...

Wasn't the cinema where the car wash is (down near the Esso garage)?

Brockley Nick said...

No, it was on this site. There's an article about it on this site if you search for it.

But times have changed - from home cinema, to pop-up cinemas to cinema experiences and so on... I agree that this would not really suit a cinema, however cool it would be to have one here.

quick brown fox said...

If this is built using attractive, good quality materials, and is well-maintained, then it will have a positive impact on the area. Otherwise, it won't.

Is the station going to be rebuilt at some point? It's going to look even more shabby and horrible once some shiny new buildings go up next to it.

Brockley Nick said...

@QBF - agreed. And re: station, no, I doubt it will be rebuilt for many, many years.

Anonymous said...

Yes it will have a nice village feel, if your idea of a village is being surrounded by 4 and 5 storey characterless apartment blocks.

Ian Evitable said...

If you want the high street to be developed and to get new shops, bars, restaurants etc it is going to draw in new people - more people will want to move here. Therefore rents/house prices will go up.

To stop rents/house prices going up, we need more flats/houses therefore these developments need to be done. plus lots more old victorian houses will need to be turned into flats as per north of the river and the South West. Prices however will still go up.

There will be more cars in the area therefore there will at some point be a CPZ at Brockley, Crofton park, HOP etc.

If this is your idea of hell then stop all of these developments at all costs. Litter the streets, let your dogs foul on the pavement, be nasty to strangers. make it a horrible place to come and no one will. then we'll all be happy.

I think there are some things people need to accept.
The population here is going to increase. We need new houses/flats already.
There will be more Cars, Lewisham will introduce CPZ's at stations. we will need CPZ's, like it or not.
Rent's and house prices will increase. People will be priced out of the area, it is happening already.
The area will morph into a n other London high street.
Just as Hoxton/Shoreditch/Highbury et al have their time where the lucky few experience it when it was actually good - Brockley will be flooded with a new intake that will ultimately turn it into something completely different and far less unique.

name me another sought after area within zone 2 that has escaped this fate?

Time to find New Brockley and start again.

david said...

Brockley Park Cars are the best garage I've ever used. Bought my Honda off them a few years ago and ever since they kept it tuned up and running nicley for fantastically low rates. Two of them even came and gave me a bump start when the starter motor burned out.

Talking to Roger, the joint owner, last year I know that car sales were no longer viable hence sub-letting to the van hire people. I presume this is all linked to the new development. Hope they are relocating and not closing up but I'll see what I can find out and add to the thread.

Anonymous said...

David yes pls keep us posted on that one. And nick the cottages on coulgate all seem to have windows at the back so this development would definitely spoil their character. Who owns them does anyone know? Would be interested to know their views on losing their back windows. Why can't the design be more in keeping with the area? Its really not attractive at all. Its looks to me like something sir basil Spence would have created in the late fifties. Bricky blocky and ugly. needs a few curves if you ask me. what is it you actually find sexy about this design?

Anonymous said...

"bricky"? In that it's made of bricks? Like the houses there? Please, if your going to be critical have a sensible point

Anonymous said...

I do believe the CPZ is necessary!! and everyone living near the station thinks the same.

Tim said...

And I don't live near the station, and think the same!

Anonymous said...

I was referring to the fact that it reminds me of bricky blocky basil Spence designs. which is a description of what I think the shape and texture of the design looks like. sorry if its not sensible or intellectual enough for you but this isnt a debate about my persona! Have a look at Coventry cathedral if u want to understand what I mean. What would be a sensible description of the design in your eyes then. Is sexy a sensible description?

Revelonanon said...

"The CPZ debate has been had, no one wants it, accept it, shut up and go away!"

That comment reminds me of the last time I went to a public meeting about a CPZ. Large men with red faces bellowing 'shut up!' at anyone who ventured to suggest there might be some benefits from parking control.

Anonymous said...

The application is a well considered response to an island site.

The variety of massing, roof level changes and the intention to use a selection of facing bricks as the main elevational treatment will create a pleasing appearance.

The proposal for active street frontage at ground level should be welcomed as it will introduce more small business and retail opportunity in the locality.

The developer and the architect, Emoli Petroschka, deserve credit for this design proposal.

Anonymous said...

David, totally agree about Brockley park cars. They're great and it will be a big loss if they're squeezed out of Brockley. They're always polite and honest and cheap. Do keep us posted.

Anonymous said...

I live in one of the cottages on Coulgate Street and you are right that we all have a window on the rear top storey of the properties that overlooks the site. Looking at the plans, you can see that on the Northern end of the Brockley Road elevation of the plans, our windows are still visible, suggesting the height at that end of the development does not exceed that already in place (primarily the existing canopy). I'm hopeful that we'll actually be consulted at some stage, but the plans don't overly concern me... anything that increases footfall to this section of Brockley Road only serves to help the existing businesses, let alone any new ones occupying the new spaces.

Anonymous said...

ps; as soon as I posted that, the planning application letter popped through the letterbox from Lewisham Council.... so disregard comment about consultation in my previous post.

Robert said...

My personal view:
I think the developer and his architect have worked very hard to listen to concerns, and have come up with a proposal that is their own, but still addresses the important issues: design quality, height, and the balance between retail/business use and residential.

I quite like the design - its not bad at all.

However, I do think that open balconies over the retail is inappropriate. This is an area where we are trying to encourage and promote a strong evening economy. For that reason, I think it's important for residential to take a back seat. Open balconies onto the main retail stretch are likely to create the potential for future confrontation and complaints.

Anonymous said...

Is it me or doesn't the computerised view of the street and landscaping look as if two muggings are taking place, and someone is fleeing. It looks distinctly forbidding.

Anonymous said...

Better than the first stab i think. Certainly much better than the Speedicars lump. Materials will be really important so i hope the quality is there. Still think the corner where the mural is now looks a bit bland and would have liked a few more 3 bed units. Otherwise, looking good i think.

Anonymous said...

would be nice to close foxberry road in front of the building.

kolp said...

The point made by Robert
"However, I do think that open balconies over the retail is inappropriate. " is a key one.

It needs to be made clear in the design that this is primarily a retail development with residential as an addition.

Triple glazed windows sound proofing. Extra sound proofing between the retail and residences above.

Understandably when people buy property they become territorial. But the more you give them more they feel entitled to complain about. Fairly or unfairly

Anonymous said...

No to CPZ. It's nice parking for free on your own road.

ATress said...

Waitrose, please.

Kev said...

It looks cheap and ugly

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