180 Brockley Road update

180 Brockley Road is now a pile of smoking rubble between Browns and The Brockley Barge. It is due to be rebuilt as a mixed use development with retail at ground level and flats above.

Workers on site have told people that they are building a new home for Tesco and - since the Council allowed the original developers to create a retail unit big enough for a supermarket - it's almost certain that one supermarket brand or another will take it.

Sainsbury, Nisa and Costcutter are all already located within a stone's throw and Tesco has been sniffing around this part of Brockley for a while, so it seems the most likely outcome, albeit one that would be largely redundant and represent a lost opportunity to create something interesting in the heart of Brockley.

However, no deal has yet been done.

We contacted the developers for an update after demolition began and their application for minor amendments to the plan were refused by the Council and they have confirmed that they will be making another application and are still in negotiations with an anchor tenant for the largest retail unit.

Simon Hosking of developers Boultbee says:

With reference to the application, initial minor amendments were rejected, however we will be submitting some slight amendments today. With respect to the retail units, I can confirm we are in negotiation and so unfortunately cannot disclose those details until these discussions have been concluded.

99 comments:

Guest said...

That would be great as I'm too lazy to walk over the bridge to Sainsbury's most of the time on my way home and I wouldn't have to put up with that sour faced woman that works in Costcutters!

I beg to differ said...

The staff in Costcutters are lovely

Guest said...

The majority are (talking about the one across from the barge) but there's one woman who is just a miserable cow.
Service with a smile?

anon said...

We could do with another supermarket, especially on the other side. Sainsburys is always really busy and always has a lot of things out of stock

terrencetrentderby said...

It was never going to be a magic shop or pet emporium.

Costcutter and Mira (who goes in there?) could do with some nearby competition.

Brockley Nick said...

It should have been a restaurant! There are no large restaurant spaces in this part of Brockley.

Mezzer said...

The MOT garage was more useful IMO!

Brockley Nick said...

A giant Argos would probably be more useful, but they don't belong in town centres right next to a zone 2 station. It's a waste. And there are loads of other MOT centres nearby.

Monkeyboy said...

Nando's (puts on tin hat)

anon said...

waitrose please ;-)

Tesc-no said...

Tescos is rubbish. Shame if they get their crappy frontage in such a prime spot.

Ben said...

The food and choice in Costcutter is below par. A Tesco would be a great addition to the area for anyone who lives on the east side.

Brockley Grover said...

Now that Tesco (or any other large retailer) has lost out on the Crofton Park site opposite the Brockley Jack* I suspect they must be actively looking elsewhere and this would seem a prime site.
*The recently-submitted proposal is for two shop units about the same size of those in the demolished 1930s building. However, the shop units in the new development are divided by a central lobby/stairs serving the flats so cannot be knocked into a shop unit large enough for a supermarket.

Pebble_dash said...

As I live on the "other side" I wouldn't use a supermarket in that location but I can see that if goes ahead as a Tesco that it would be used by many as a convenience option on the way home. However, I would most definitely use a restaurant, gym or bar.

maisie_moo said...

It's not a big enough site for Tesco to offer a much wider range of products than its local competitors. It will be just another mediocre supermarket, that will suck market share from the mediocre supermarkets we already have. Not sure how Brockley gains.

AliAfro said...

Is Brockley ready for a large restaurant? - I think I'd prefer a number of smaller restaurants/bars to create a critical mass of entertainment options. Unfortunately, for a developer, a Tescos wins hands down for increasing the value of their investment.

AliAfro said...

Same here - although I'm in Crofton Park...

Lep Recorn said...

Aldi, Lidl - we can always go in with a Waitrose bag . . .

guest said...

KFC! KFC! KFC!

Headhunter said...

I agree to some extent however a new Tezzies would be useful. On the other hand it would be nice to have something a bit more interesting but then again there's still a fair amount of smaller retail space around Brockley which is under utilised which could be taken up by smaller, independent stuff...

Headhunter said...

MOT garages might be useful but they don't need to be slap bang in a prime spot in front of the train station....

terrencetrentderby said...

Look on the bright side Nick, Tesco will eventually destroy the local competition freeing up units for rent.

Guest said...

a pharmacy would be useful, a turkish deli, a real bakery, a flower shop? so many options but please not Tesco or another supermarket!!

Guest said...

a pharmacy would be useful, a turkish deli, a flower shop? please not Tesco!!

ArabinClaire said...

Yes, please, definitely! NOT TESCO.

Ben Brown said...

Tesco are evil, but thankfully people are realising this and they are losing customers by the cartload. They wouldn't continue on a project with my ex-wife's engineering firm until a member of the team who had been found to have protested against them was sacked. The project was worth millions and they were forced to let the worker go. One of many stories there are to be heard about Tesco. Don't shop there unless you absolutely have to.

Lord Rogers said...

the developer would give their eye teeth to get a blue chip client like Tesco in there - good, long-term rental - if nothing else, Tesco are committed . . .

Naomi madeleine said...

another restaurant would be great

Brockley Nick said...

I think by now we have established that Brockley is ready for anything. A Pizza East-style place would do wonders to bring more people to the area at nights and weekends and help create that critical mass. Still, not going to happen. With luck, we'll get one or two interesting occupants of the other units - a cafe, a hairdresser, a flower shop. That sort of thing.

maisie_moo said...

One small step for Waitrose, one giant leap for Brockley. Who'll start the petition? :-)

Testing said...

If you can walk to the train station you can walk the couple of hundred meters to the Nisa or Sainsburys, I'm on East side and do not want a Tesco, just completely pointless, Tesco metros offer nothing that isn't already close by, they aren't good value either.

brockleydad said...

Actually they'd get a much higher rent for A3 use (i.e. a restaurant) than A1 (a shop), especially if you're talking about a big supermarket chain, who will want a significant discount.

Dan said...

MAKE IT A GYM!!

Dan said...

Who has a contact at John Lewis - a little Waitrose would be fab.

Testing said...

THIS, Puregym in Greenwich does very well, under housing though? 24 hour noise?

Monkeyboy said...

why is waitrose virtuous and tesco the devils spawn?

Mark Racz said...

Because Waitrose oozes North London and for some reason that's in. Tesco is just Tesco.

https://goo.gl/maps/hEj92

Because it's a new development, I think whatever goes in there will have to be sort of new and shiny too, so no Nu Spice-like shabby-chic, more like an estate agent, a bigger pharmacy, Tesco/Sainsbury. Pub too, but it would look weird (maybe not weird, but not inviting either if above it's only a bland block of flats).

maisie_moo said...

Always comes top in customer satisfaction surveys. More ethical, higher animal welfare standards etc. etc.

teahound said...

For me it's because Dame Shirley Porter is the daughter of the founder of Tesco and the heir. Nasty homes for votes heiress profits or a shop that gives employees many more rights than most shop workers.

Brockley Nick said...

Would be a very cramped gym

Newby said...

Because Tesco has been successful and many in the UK despise success. Waitrose is a killer for small independents as the middle class dont feel guilty about doing their shopping at Waitrose.

Brockley Nick said...

Well Tesco is in a right mess at the moment while Waitrose is doing pretty well, so I don't think it's that hoary old chestnut about the Brits hating success.

oldperv said...

a brothel would be nice

Monkeyboy said...

as i thought, no concrete reasons for the choice. do little corner shops pay better and look after their staff better? have better H&S? higher animal welfare? As for the 'despise success' thats just cobblers.

having said all that, Id rather it was something other than a supermarket
.

Tim said...

Seems reasonable. Why should they indirectly employ someone who has protested against them? I wouldn't want someone working for me who clearly wanted me to fail.
If they were sacked, previously they done something to warrant it, as employment law wouldn't allow it otherwise.

Tim said...

Right, that's a really good reason to hate a business with hundreds of thousands of shareholders - you don't like one of them.
I'm sure that 100% of all people associated with Waitrose area are as pure as the driven snow.
With a policy like that, you must have a hatred of every business out there.

terrencetrentderby said...

I agree, the women in Costcutter all look like very sad and overworked wives.

The less said about the meat in corner shops the better, it tends to always look like surplus from Nazi Occupied Poland.

AliAfro said...

I didn't say the rent would be higher - the development will be valued higher with a low rent strong covenant occupier like Tesco compared to a higher rent risky covenant restaurant. So the question is whether he/she/it wants high risk + high rent or low risk higher sale price.

Newby said...

Im not sure it's still the biggest supermarket group in the UK by a country mile even after its recent woes. It's also still the 3rd biggest such group ib the World. People love to berate Tesco and congratulate Waitrose but the fact remains Tesco's business model makes it affordable for millions whereas Waitrose is firmly for the 1%ers.

maisie_moo said...

If we had a Waitrose it would be some of my on-line grocery spending that would be diverted to it, not my spending in local shops. I'd still use the delis in the same way (i.e. for treats/presents etc.) If I'm at all representative, then Waitrose would be more likely than Tesco to increase overall retail spending in Brockley, rather than just stealing market share.

Guest said...

We need some decent pubs in that area or within 5 mins walk of it, not that a modern development lends itself to that but we just do.

Mark said...

What is the point in having another crappy supermarket? Just really depressing. Why dont we look at the successes of places like Brockley Market and Model Market? MAke it a community hub, with a collection of smaller independent concessions including quality yet affordable butchers (such as the Butchery), Fishmongers (like Sopers) a veg shop, perhaps a bakery selling bread and pies. Maybe an outlet for the Brockley Brewey? Then also various food traders selling affordable and imaginative grub, with tables and chairs to eat in, or food to take away? Would be a great place for the community to hang out or just pop in on the way home for some bits and bobs. Now that would be a hell of a lot cooler than a Tesco. .

datchet said...

Developers, and the by-product industry that hangs off their teats, have no imagination and it's not in their remit to give anything back to the community. They put these things up and move on. That is the point of another crappy supermarket (and the by-product industry that hangs off their teats).
But you can do it Mark, action, not words

Monkeyboy said...

i LOVE brockley market and the butchery, but 'affordable'? i can afford it. plenty of people cant, love them or loath them most mortals depend on supermarkets

still rather something else though....

Mark said...

i'm referring to the concept more than what people consider affordable or not. I think that for the quality you get at The Butchery (for example) it's actually really reasonable, and there is demand in Brockley for quality that isn't overpriced.

terrencetrentderby said...

Have you not noticed a certain economic (and racial?) demographic at Brockley Market..?

It's nice but definitely a twee luxury for those with decent disposable incomes.

Headhunter said...

But have you also noticed a tendency for certain demographics to obesity? Perhaps if higher quality food (admittedly at a higher price) was more readily available then people would not eat rubbish, high fat, pre-prepared foods rather than gorging on supermarket fodder produced to a price point, high in fat, salt and sugar

piety said...

no, I haven't noticed a tendency for certain demographics to obesity – could it be that due to your own prejudices you choose to remember a certain type of persons body shape, perhaps based on what kind of clothes they are wearing, when applying your judgments to them?

Tim said...

piety - it is a well known fact that people in lower income demographics are more likely to be obese.
Headhunter - What are you suggesting? That in inner London, higher quality food doesn't exist? Or that some people can't afford it and it should somehow be made available to them.

Max Calò said...

I don't think it's because good food is not available/affordable. I think it's a cultural issue, the British working class has got used to eating crap thinking it's actually good or as a regular commenter here says "honest fayre".

Headhunter said...

Check the statistics.... Most poorer London boroughs like Lewisham have the lowest life expectancy and highest levels of obesity... Not prejudice, fact...

Headhunter said...

I think there's a tendency to buy large amounts of cr@p (fried chicken, ready meals, cheap battery chicken meat etc etc) if that's what's available and then most likely throw a lot of it in the bin when it goes off (again statistics show that a large percentage of what we buy to eat ends up in the bin). If people bought less but higher quality food, less would be wasted and perhaps there would be fewer health issues....

mark said...

Where does economics and race come into it? Sure Brockley market may attract a 'affluent' clientele, but these happen to be people who choose to spend their money on food rather than on something else. The concept of independent retailers is not one of affluence. What's 'twee' about having retailers selling products they care and and are knowledgeble about? if you want to go to a supermarket, then there are plenty in the vicinity. i don't (and cant afford to) do a all my shopping at Brockley Market, but like to buy a few bits and bobs as a treat. It's nice to have an option and another souless tesco (for example) would just be duplicating on what's already available.

Headhunter said...

Sigh... My comment has disappeared into the Discus hole again... I think I basically agreed with Max. Most people by lots of cr@p - fried chicken, cheap, factory farm, fatty meat, ready meals etc, a lot of which ends up in the bin as that's what they think they need. If better quality, better tasting food was the only choice, perhaps people would buy less and value what they do buy and ultimately end up more healthy....

piety said...

if you could point me to the statistics you're quoting I would be very grateful. My research (via google) leads me to a chart where the life expectancy in Lewisham is 76 (for males) - just about average (with the highest being 83.7 and the lowest 75.1 - (most being in the narrow 75 to 78 range). There was no indication as to whether this was related to people being fat and wearing sports gear however.
Perhaps you've drawn your information from another source and as we all know we use this type of stuff to prove ourselves right rather than prove ourselves wrong . . .

terrencetrentderby said...

"no, I haven't noticed a tendency for certain demographics to obesity "
Are you blind?

terrencetrentderby said...

If I only had £3 in my pocket to buy dinner I know I would choose a box of fried chicken and chips (inc Fanta) over a small rye bread cob from Brockley Market.
Junk food is the curse of the poor. That is of course not saying you couldn't make a decent vegetarian meal for £3 because you definitely can, but for many poor people that simply isn't going to happen. That is why the only people you seen in Brockley Market are middle class and white, the social elite of Lewisham.

Headhunter said...

If I only had £3 in my pocket to eat I wouldn't by anything pre prepared... Poor or not, buying ready made food makes no sense on either an economic or nutritional level.


If I lived in Lewisham and had extremely limited means to provide food I would NOT be buying rubbish like fried chicken, I would shop at Lewisham or Deptford Markets and make food at home. Junk food is not the "curse of the poor", everyone has a choice, junk food is expensive, lazy and rubbish and certainly not something people on limited means should be trying to survive on....


I'm not saying that everyone should shop at Brockley market but it's actually probably more cost effective than buying cheap fried take away stuff and throwing half of it on the pavement (as seems to happen in Lewisham)

Newby said...

I would suggest that the % of shoppers at Brockley Market who are part of the top 1% of UK earners is very high. Lets also be honest about Tesco, whilst it sells a lot of ready made meals (so does Waitrose) it also sells a lot of fresh fruit and veg at very low prices. UK supermarkets have made a huge variety of foodstuffs affordable to millions of UK consumers who are not financially in a position to travel or shop at chi chi famers markets and delis.

Headhunter said...

Come on! You sound like you're arguing that the supermarkets somehow introduced the concept of the vegetable to city dwellers! Independent greengrocers and fruit and veg markets existed a long, long time before supermarkets! You can get a far, far larger selection of fruit and veg at Lewisham or Brockley markets than you can get in any Sainsbury's, Tesco, Asda or whatever and IME the small, metro/local ones sell barely any fresh food - it's mostly about prepacked and bottled stuff.... Deptford, Lewishamd and Brockley markets are all up to about a mile from the Brockers so no, supermarkets have not somehow made the vegetable available to us...

Headhunter said...

I'm sure Nick posted an article about it on this blog not long ago... There's something here:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/datablog/2012/apr/12/london-health-map-local-authorities

This shows childhood obesity but it's interesting:

http://www.londonspovertyprofile.org.uk/indicators/groups/children/childhood-obesity/

Max Calò said...

I'd eat a banana and two carrots and have £2.50 left. But I'm white middle class, what do I know of the plight of the poor.

Newby said...

I was just pointing out that the notion that supermarkets are crappy or evil is not based on fact. They are not responsible for a whole host of sins that they are accused of. They seem to be unpopular with a small demographic because they offend their bien peasant sensibilities.

terrencetrentderby said...

That they are choosing fried chicken over a banana and two carrots

terrencetrentderby said...

The point is "the poor" are buying cheap fast food instead of cheap healthy food.
Maybe you and Max should run some kind of Jamie Oliver style roadshow in Lewisham? Max could demonstrate all the things he does with his carrots and bananas.

Tim said...

Just google "poverty obesity" or similar combinations and you will find all the statistics you need.

The link between poverty and obesity is a simple fact.

You might find this article useful:

http://sirc.org/articles/poverty_and_obesity.shtml

Tim said...

I totally agree. Supermarkets have done a vast amount to bring both cheap and quality food to the masses. What the masses choose to do with that choice is up to them. You don't need to buy the cheap booze/junk food etc. I don't
(and if I was on benefits I have no doubt I could buy myself a nutrious, if not very exciting diet, with those benefits).

Headhunter said...

Yes but the original argument was that the less well off inhabitants of Brockley need a supermarket and cheap places to eat like take aways etc, my argument was that perhaps if people bought less rubbish and more quality food from places like Brockley Market or independents, threw less away (on the pavement in the case of fried chicken), we may have a healthier population. I'm not arguing that the poor don't buy rubbish food, I'm arguing that we don't necessarily need another bland supermarket to provide for the needs of Brockley....

Max Calò said...

Yes you could instruct the poor on how to use funnily shaped vegetables, but they already think that they're not for eating so that'd be a bit of a waste of time.

Max Calò said...

In fairness Tesco Metro have a good selection of fruit and veg alongside the ready meals so there's a choice there for people to use. Way cheaper at Lewisham Market though. And yes Brockley Market is for those that can afford it but this doesn't mean that the choice is either Brockley Market or Fried Chicken. To say that people eat fried chicken because Brickley Market is expensive is nonsense.

Max Calò said...

Yes, in a nutshell, and it's very elitist of me to call this a self-harming choice guided by marketing and deeply engrained cultural misconceptions.

Tamsin said...

You've got a real bakery already in the Doorstep opposite. Love the smell of their baking as I pass on the way home from work in the evenings - and they are reasonable not "artisan".

Tamsin said...

Protest as is marching about with a placard in one's free time demonstrating against Tesco and their evil ways in general or protest as in objecting to this particular contract? Either way on the admittedly sparse information available it sounds a bit like a witch hunt.

Tamsin said...

Light industrial would be good. Some jobs in Lewisham that you don't have to commute to. The council have been far too satisfied for far to long to just become a dormitory borough.

Brockley Nick said...

Sorry Tamsin, that is the worst idea I have ever heard. And FYI, every borough bar Westminster, The City, K&C, Camden and Tower Hamlets is pretty much a dormitory borough. Of course it's good to attract more jobs to the area (we've just added a brand new live/work development at Brockley Cross), but retail will create more jobs than light industry would here. Plus, you know - shops belong on the high street, light industry belongs in light industrial units.

Karen said...

Reasonably priced and great smell but have you eaten their bread? They produce supermarket quality bread full of flour enhancers and preservatives, hardly a real bakery.

Tamsin said...

What, even worse than some of my other ones? ;o)
It might be how modern cities work because that's how the developers can max out on returns and rental - either on the offices in the city or the rabbit-hutches next to railways stations built for the commuters to live in.
Does not add much to the quality of life for the people concerned who have to waste collectively thousands of hours of non-productive time in an overcrowded transport system where you can't even read. Wouldn't it be nicer if there were more jobs for people within a half hour walk of where they live or a five minute drive from where their children are in nursery? And something slightly more satisfying than stacking shelves for a small manifestation of a supermarket giant?
I will spare you the litany of what has been forced out of Lewisham / New Cross / Bermondsey by economic factors over the past fifty years but it is regrettable even though inevitable - and more proactive steps like the Brockley Cross development to help modern small business in the area would be of benefit to all.

Tamsin said...

Not as low as the markets - Lewisham or Deptford. And Aldi and Lidl also do fresh fruit and veg. (and pasta and pulses). You just have to lower your standards slightly and eat them a bit quicker.

terrencetrentderby said...

Education, education, education as Blair would say.
There are also cultural handicaps that lean towards establishments like fried chicken shops.

small mindedness said...

But the big bosses love big buildings where they can look down on their set of workers and measure their success by the number of people they have having meeting and sending emails.

A great many people are conditioned to the rabbit hutch flats - commuter hell-supermarket shopping lifestyle and few question it. They shrug their shoulders and get on with it. If everyone else is doing it, then it can't be wrong, can it?

Its all very well wittering on about community this and that but most around here have modest aspirations for Brockley: a nicer supermarket, more regular trains, a nicer place to live. We live in centralised, corporatised society and expect everything we need to be delivered by big organisations and this encourages a small mindedness, which is very evident here.

However....I notice that many people are on short term jobs, often several of them. Lots more people are self employed. This has been a big change in the past few years. It will take rather longer for these big bureaucracies to recognise the fact and provide for local facilities. It takes reports to be written, long term plans to be developed, priorities to be adjusted, budgets to be set.

I suspect TFL might adjust the Oyster card fares to something a bit more flexible than a fixed set of fixed zone period season tickets. Whether Lewisham council will set about providing for local workspace, I very much doubt. It is not a borough known for its progressive policies nor for its aptitude for long term planning. It blows with the wind.

Brockley is a small minded place, the mindset is transitory. I think people imagine they will get lots of nice local facilities when they eventually move out to one of the better heeled suburbs or towns beyond the M25. If more people decide to put down roots here, that may change. Somehow, I don't think this development is going to be for people like that.

Royshirttugger said...

we need more restaurants at the mid price range ( 99pounds for entrees, 250 pounds for main course per person) all the other bourgousie can bog off down Lee valley.

terrencetrentderby said...

Or a Budgens so Jay can display an even larger photo of his mug for the outside world to enjoy

Brockley Nick said...

Spars are just crappy supermarkets for locations that real supermarkets aren't interested in. We already have Costcutter and Nisa for that...

Ruby said...

not these Spars......

http://www.chatsworthroade5.co.uk/2014/04/new-restaurant-burger-bar-and-convenience-store-opening-in-former-snooker-hall-on-brooksbys-walk/

Jenny said...

I would prefer a Waitrose but I don't think Brockley is quite there yet! :p

Jenny said...

A great butcher for those of you commenting below is William Rose in Dulwich. They deliver when you spend over £25, so you can either stock up and freeze or just buy from them when you have company. :)
Personally, I think a decent dry cleaners would be nice. Apart from that, I agree with a Pizza East type restaurant. All the retail units bar The Gantry, The Orchard, The Brockley Deli, Mofo and Happy Nails are very poor. It would be great to finally get a decent bar or restaurant in the area. Nobody wants a tesco, we've already got sainsburys and nisa as well as the costcutter... Also, in this day and age, you can get all your food delivered straight to your door so a tesco would be a waste of space, although I do agree that it could free up other retail units which would clearly go bust..!

Mayzie said...

I heard that it was Sainsbury's lined for the largest commercial unit

anon said...

Who said that? Would be strange with them on the other side quite close. But I guess the current sainsburys is very small, more a corner shop, and very over used.

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