Bakerloo consultation starts on September 29th with Southwark lobbying for Brockley route

Southwark news site SE1 reports that the public consultation for the southern extension of the Bakerloo Line will begin on September 29th, with the Mayor urging "south-east London boroughs to "come to the party" with their ideas." Southwark Council leader Peter John is campaigning for the line to go via Camberwell, Peckham and thus Brockley. SE1 site reports:

"[Boris said] We're looking for interest, we're looking to hear about development potential, about funding packages we can put together with business to support a scheme that has a lot of government interest. We really need the boroughs to come to the party and say how they will help us to finance it."

Mr Johnson's comments come in the same week that Southwark Council Leader Peter John was quizzed about the tube plans by a cross-party committee of councillors.

"TfL are going to be putting two options- the Old Kent Road option and the Camberwell option – on the table. My primary argument has always been for Camberwell and Peckham, and the commitment I got from the Mayor a couple of years ago was that he would extend the Bakerloo line in that direction.

"I remain hopeful that that is something that TfL will continue to look at extremely seriously. [However] It's more difficult to see how funding generated from the delivery of the tube to Camberwell and Peckham would deliver the same potential financial gain as you would see running down the Old Kent Road,"

Click here for the full article.


anonymous said...

It will be great if they could just do both routes similar to the east london line which forks at surrey quays. Camberwell definitely needs a station but Peckham is already pretty well served transport wise. However Old kent road is in dire needs of a station. Make everyone happy and go both routes. You've got till 2040 to sort it out for goodness sake.

bothplease said...

Agreed - go both. SE London desperately needs the tube, we can handle both routes

mickey mouse said...

I will be 62 in 2040, so it will be built just as I hopefully retire. Jeez, thanks you rubbish politicians. Just crack on and build it now - feck the consultation

Olaf_Hansen said...

The 2040 date mentioned in the 2050 Infrastructure plan in no way sets it in stone - it's just another way of stating 'at some point in the future'. If you would like to see this project delivered in some shape or form, it's essential to engage with the consultation and say so, rather than accepting it's only going to happen in the distant future.

I suspect there's a bit too much noise around this right now for 2040 to be taken seriously. You have a massive requirement for housing and the possibility of regeneration in the two opportunity areas down Old Kent Road, which can only take place when appropriate public transport is put in place.

Then there's the possibility of relieving the overcrowding on the ELL and the South East Main Line through Lewisham. This might free up enough paths to allow the Overground to be extended beyond New Cross to Lewisham/Hither Green.

Keep in mind the first Northern Line extension was held in 2010. The Transport and Works Act order was submitted in April 2013 and construction will start in 2015. Of course, developer funding made a lot of this possible which may well not contribute to such an extent to the Bakerloo Line extension.

Anyway here's an optimistic guess. As as soon as the boring machines finish up in Battersea, they'll be on their way down Old Kent Road in no time!

Headhunter said...

There used to be train lines and stations along Old Kent Rd from the old Bricklayers Arms station but that closed in the early 1980s and the old station demolished and most of the original lines built over - you can see all the 80s buildings and commercial developments along the north side of OKR where trains used to run....

Emma said...

I think both options should be built but from what I understand the camberwell/peckham branch would be taking over an existing rail line so I would think it should be quicker to deliver and would be of more benefit to existing residents so should be looked at being built first and sooner than 2040.

Aricana said...

Both routes for all the reasons stated.

brockleyite said...

Not that fussed about the route. Either would be a massive benefit, though the possibilities of a substantial developer contribution are probably bigger via OKR

The main thing is TfL should get on with it! SE London pay the TfL levy but are massively underserved by TfL transport compared to other parts of London, The Bakerloo extenstion should be a higher priority that Crossrail 2.

Martin said...

I am definitely going to take part in the consultation.

Monkeyboy said...

If it happens (and i think it its a when rahter than an if) then it will have to form an orderly queue behind this The Pic and current Bakerloo are shot, the Central is a masivly important line and will require new kit soon. An out side chance that the BLE could tag onto the back of the upgrade but as the main programme isnt funded yet its all to play for.

JR said...

Living in Ladywell I'd be happy with the NKR route if I am still alive/ living in Ladywell in 2040 when I am 60 years old. Southwark Council Leader Peter John doesnt seem too optimistic if he is saying:
It's more difficult to see how funding generated from the delivery of the tube to Camberwell and Peckham would deliver the same potential financial gain as you would see running down the Old Kent Road,"

Matt-Z said...

Lots of good comments made on this already. As pointed out this is way down the priorities list, Crossrail 2 and the NTFL projects being the current favourites. As things stand the current Bakerloo fleet is expected to soldier on until the mid 2030s, so 2040 would probably the very earliest date an extension might surface

Proper engagement with the consultation is indeed important, and more complicated than saying ‘yes please we want the Bakerloo in Brockley’. The momentum is already with the Old Kent Road lobby, and will take a lot to swing it back to the Camberwell route. On this point expect a mixed response
from Hayes line passengers who may not take kindly to the large, airy trains
that whisk them off to London Bridge and the City (often fast from Ladywell),
being replaced with smaller tube trains that take them a more circuitous route
through South London and then to Charing Cross.

A split line between Elephant & Castle and Lewisham is not going to happen, it’s one or the other. If current estimates put the cost at £2.6bn you can guarantee it’ll be over £3bn before a spade hits the ground. Adding a second
branch (at a cost of hundreds of millions), and by nature halving the maximum
frequency per branch, isn’t the modern way of doing things. See the Northern
Line where there is a long-held ambition to permanently segregate the line to increase frequencies on both central branches.

If the Camberwell/Brockley route is chosen there is the above-mentioned issue of the freight trains that currently use the line (and the currently unused paths to which the Freight Operating Companies have rights for several decades to come). These are unlikely to be surrendered without a fuss, unless a viable diversionary route can be found or constructed. The same applies to the Victoria – Dartford services which also use the line, and recently benefited from a campaign to improve off-peak frequency. I personally find Lewisham - Victoria a very handy service and its withdrawal would no doubt face resistance. Similarly if the route utilises existing lines between Nunhead and Elephant it will potentially be competing with services from Thameslink, South Eastern, Overground and even Southern.

The Old Kent Road route would tick all the regeneration / rail desert boxes (and have the benefit of being on new tracks in new tunnels of which it would have the exclusive use). Conversely Brockley and surrounding areas are comparatively well-served by rail. It’s true that many of the lines are overcrowded or underserved, but these can all be improved, such as by increasing the poor frequency at Crofton Park, or resignalling New Cross Gate to Croydon to allow a more intensive frequency on the Overground and into London Bridge. In fact you could argue a decent service on the Catford Loop via Crofton Park is much more achievable, and duplicates a key section of the proposed route. There are also much cheaper alternatives to improve things at Camberwell, such as enhanced frequency on the Sutton Loop and rebuilding of the closed stations at Camberwell and Walworth Road.

Summary: it doesn’t look good for the Brockley route.

Martin said...

Yes, what you wrote looked reasonable and then I remembered a consultation about the Garden Bridge

If TfL has money to build yet another bridge for the Chelsea guys then I don't see any reason why they couldn't expand transport links in the worst connected part of London. I know that we have trains, but trains seem to suffer from permanent scheduled works, they only go to termini and aren't as well integrated with the rest of the network as the tube. Bus links are ridiculously bad if you think how close we are to central London. The lack of any bridges East from Tower Bridge adds to the feeling of living in an isolated area.

In short I think we should make sure that our councillors and MPs lobby for the Bakerloo line extension. For me one strong argument for the line to go via Brockley is the fact that we already have a disused train station there.

Monkeyboy said...

the funding required is of a completely different order but keep lobbying, at some point it will move from 'interesting idea' to 'lets release money to START planning'. this stage is just crayons on a map.

Monkeyboy said...

....and we dont have a station at brockley.

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