Transpontine: Brockley a no-BNP zone

Transpontine 's just searched the leaked BNP membership database and come to the same conclusions we did - Brockley is BNP-free. Ladywell and Crofton Park also yielded zero returns.

This heartening news offsets the fact that an extremely rude bloke we witnessed swearing at a couple of old ladies at our tube station ended up getting off the same train as us at Brockley tonight.

[Edit: we've found just one with an SE4 post code]

222 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Er, are you sure?

I found several Brockley and Crofton Park members on it.

I severely disagree with its being published though.

Brockley Nick said...

Anon, you're right about at least one person.

And I agree it's not right to name individuals in this way, but it's interesting to know about levels of membership in the area.

fred vest said...

i saw a couple in brockley earlier on today when i looked at it, one of them an accountant as well

i've got no problems with it being published, however i think it could have been used in far more constructive ways than this

The Cat Man said...

I bet alot of you were just wishing that I was on it, just so that you can all feel good about yourselves.

It is completely disgraceful that this has been publicised. We no longer live in a free tolerant democracy anymore.

As long as you agree with the majority of people, eat the same food, shop in the same shops and wear the same clothes then you will be happy.

Its a very sad day for British Values.

Tressillian James said...

I've found two on my road (near each other) and a couple of others in Brockley and Crofton Park.

I think it is terribly wrong to name people - and I suppose if it hadn't been for this blog I wouldn't have checked it out at all. I did have a laugh at some of the comments next to membership (ex-Army seems to have featured heavily) - especially the one that read that the member wouldn't be renewing because "it's not worth it". I bet they're glad of that now

However, laughing aside, it is sobering to see how wide spread the far right are.

Monkeyboy said...

One had his hobbies as 'Model trains and Quantum physics' bet he knocked up a particle accelerator in his shed (along with the nail bombs)

Anonymous said...

"As long as you agree with the majority of people, eat the same food, shop in the same shops and wear the same clothes then you will be happy"

.but cat dear boy, the BNP explicitly do not tolerate diversity. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with their odious views. Actually don't think about it, your brain may finally go pop.

fred vest said...

one thing the publication of this list will show, is that the BNP is not just a rabble of knuckle draggers in ill fitting suits , might finally make a lot of people realise how much of a credible threat/political alternative they do actually pose, and start asking questions as to why

Vikki said...

Whilst I'm not defending the publication of this list, I do think the BNP have left themselves open to this kind of thing. It's been their members who run the "Redwatch" and other websites that openly target anti-BNP and anti-racist activists. The implicit purpose of these sites is to intimidate people who want to campaign against a racist organisation.

Also, when Government Departments lost data they were, perhaps rightly, criticised. So why is it any different for the BNP? They didn't look after their data properly, surely?

max said...

Cat Man, before you accuse people try to answer this question:
What do you need to be to be in the position to publish the list of the BNP members?

max said...

And when you manage to get it please do squeeze either an ice cream or a banana over your British forehead.

brockleybiker said...

"We no longer live in a free tolerant democracy anymore"

When do you beleive we did?

Tamsin said...

One can hope. And at least there is some grass roots opposition to the issue of ID cards even if the government are desperate to grab all the data they can and scatter and share it willy nilly. A form we have to complete for business rates asks how many children we have in a nursery what we charge. OK, Ofsted know about the children and we will publish our rates on line because they are so competetive, but the Valuation Office do not need to know!

On the publication of the BNP list, it is immaterial what their politics are and whether or not they do similar things - as a matter of principle the right to privacy should be respected.

The Cat Man said...

I have sympathy for some of their policies but i do not agree with their stance on racial issues.

In respect of diversity, they want to provide a core of values which will set the UK out from other countries - that is what i would like to see in terms of diversity. Culturial diversity between different countries/nation states.

but leaving that aside, it is just plainly wrong to have published the list of membership of a viable political party.

It has impinged on the right for people to express politicial freedom. We might as well live in a dictatorship if we cannot openly express views without fear of persecution from others.

I think I would even go one step further and say its pretty irresponsible for Nick to have openly published an article advocating no BNP membership in the area.

What is this article supposed to prove? So what if there was? Should it matter? Not really.

fred vest said...

"It has impinged on the right for people to express politicial freedom"

try and answer max's question and see where it leads you

the list was leaked by a disgruntled official of the BNP and first publicised by an anti-griffin nationalist/racist site , they didn't leak/publicise it because they had a road to damascus transformation, but purely down to inter party squabbling & fallouts and a desire to tarnish griffin (which in my view will fail spectacularly and griffin will capitalise on this in many ways)

so if you want to have a pop at folk who puts personal details of people into the public domain, you need to look at the type of people who are drawn towards holding positions of authority within organisations like the BNP,and think about what kind of things they are willing to do over personality feuds - hic rhodus, hic salta

i've no sympathy for anyone on that list, and those identified as working in any kind of public services should rightly have their positions considered by their employers - at the same time though the hamfisted cobweb left also seem to be shooting themselves in the foot by thinking we're back in the 1970's where street politics and physical anti-fascism is the way to go, this will only expose the bankruptcy of the left further as it reveals more and more that they don't have a political solution to the rise and rise of the BNP in this country

griffin comes out on top of this

westsider said...

Which bnp "policies" do you "sympathise" with catman?

fred vest said...

i agree with some of their policies

anti-war and anti-ID are two that spring to mind, as well as their rhetoric (but not actual work) in terms of community politics and dealing with issues that the mainstream parties flinch from (drug related crime, anti social behaviour, housing, etc..)

and it's things like this, rather than the closely hidden trojan horse racist agenda that are gaining them nearly a quarter of the voting electorate at council elections up and down the country - the mainstream political response to this however is the liberal crap that gets churned out all the time, i.e. vote anyone but the BNP, i.e. vote for a continuation of the political climate that leads to a rise in support for the BNP in the first place, rather than looking a bit deeper into what is causing such vast amounts of people, from all walks of life, to give the BNP their vote come election times

(incidentally it was interesting to see so many ex-green councilors from around the country on the BNP membership list)

jpm said...

I am uneasy about open publications like this. I had the entire membership of the Freemasons, but I did not publish it online. (Some members were published in Punch Magazine.) However, every man has a right to free association, however loathsome I find the views. That said, I am pleased to see that there are only three BNP members in SE4, two being in Tressillian Road. (Strange place to live if you are of such an opininon.)

westsider said...

Fred I was directing the question at Catman because I don't believe he knows anything about them other than roughly where they stand on race. He only cares about one thing and it isn't ID cards.

By the way, being "anti-war" is hardly novel and they ain't exactly pacifists. As for ID cards, well I don't support their introduction, but you can bet the BNP's stance is more to do with how many of them have criminal records and how paranoid they are generally, rather than any kind of principled stand.

Any old crook can put on a suit, suppress their rage for the cameras and grab hold of some policies they found on the internet. It doesn't make them a legitimate political party. This leak by their own people just shows the respect they have for the privacy of the individual and for their fellow human beings.

fred vest said...

i know, my point was that it is possible to agree with some of the things the BNP support without supporting the BNP as catman's binary logic seems to lead to

it also shows that folk shouldn't take a binary opposition to things based on what the BNP's stance is on them (i.e. typical trot nonsense, BNP say black, so they say white - poor choice of words there maybe!) , and i think most people, catman excluded, are intellgent enough to realise this

westsider said...

Fred, I totally agree with you

lb said...

"it was interesting to see so many ex-green councilors from around the country on the BNP membership list"

Doesn't surprise me really, after all many of the more extreme fringes of the New Age lot have a distinctly fascistic character.

Let's also not forget that in the US a large element of the people in the mid-late '60s counter-culture went on to become rabid Republicans, which just goes to show that there's nothing more bitter than an ex-idealist.

Anyway, I agree that the Sparts need to organise themselves into a credible alternative. I think they were so effectively demonised by Thatcher - and rose to the bait so spectacularly, after all - that no-one's taken them seriously for the best part of thirty years.

brockley mutha said...

Nt too many in SE4. stranger than the tressillian road inhabitants is the BNP member who lives in Brixton - not so strange is their request that all correspondence be sent via email.

Headhunter said...

I have a morbid curiosity to see the list, but how do you access it? Or has it already been taken down?

Brockley Kate said...

There are 4 people in SE4 on that list.

fred vest said...

"I have a morbid curiosity to see the list, but how do you access it? Or has it already been taken down?"

follow the link in transpontine's post or google bnp blogspot, or for a better formatted list download the file from a torrent site like piratebay.org

lb - agree that's it not surprising, still interesting though - i especially agree that those green elements involved in the OPT are prime candidates for a move across to the BNP

Brockley Kate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Cat Man said...

Im somewhat amazed, and shocked that people didn't realise that the BNP had a variety of people forming their membership.

I posted an article on my blog about 6 months ago now where I was having a debate with a commenter 'Tom' about how the BNP are gaining popularity. That pretty much sums up what we are beginning to see.

I pretty much agree with Fred Vests position on this, altough I do not know why he insists on dis-crediting my position. I can only assume the new-lefties on here have somehow convinced him, and others, that I am some sort of Racist. Weird.

But anyway, another interesting thing to point out to the new-lefties.

Ok, 4 members in se4. About 90-ish people voted for the BNP locally in both Telegraph Hill and Brockley Ward.

That means 4/(90+90)= 0.022%

Therefore apply to membership list nationally:

10,000/0.0022 = 454,545 nationally expected vote.

Then assume also that se4 isn't exactly representative (being a militant neo-leftie hotbed) we can roughly project a national vote for the BNP of circa. 500,000 - 1m.

Thats quite alot.

Headhunter said...

Can't get at it from any of those sites. Seems to have been removed.

Anonymous said...

Not every constituency has a BNP candidate though... its not usually there amongst the usual Lib/Lab/Con/SNP/Plaid Cymru type lists...

fred vest said...

not sure why you need to extrapolate, they got 800,000 at the european elections in 2006

lb said...

This is the point: the party membership list doesn't necessarily tally with the people who might vote for them, in the sense that the kind of hardcore political junkies (at Hunter S Thompson might have put it) who'd actually join a political party aren't really that representative of those who vote for it.

I mean, look at the Conservative 'grass roots' membership - largely over 70, largely living in Eastbourne. Cameron isn't really pitching his message (or the collection of soundbites he attempts to pass off as a message) to those people, and they aren't the ones who are interviewed in opinion polls about voting intentions.

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Cat Man said...

And just to throw in another hot potato, I would consider voting for them in the next election and NOT because I agree with them on race, but for their stance on

temporary immigration (I welcome permanent immigration for anyone but temporary immigration - where people leave the UK results in a capital outflow and a shock to established community values)

establishing core british values (which we pretty much lack at the moment)

Representing the working class poor (which I identify with)

anti-globalisation (which I think has weakend serverely labour market wages in the UK, making most UK workers poorer and the non-working rich richer).

I would only consider voting for them considering that I know they would never form a government anyway, hopefully a higher vote will shock the main parties into doing something about these issues.

fred vest said...

bottled it did you catman

lb said...

"I would consider voting for them in the next election and NOT because I agree with them on race"

Do you not agree with Fred that they have a "hidden [...] racist agenda", though? They clearly do.

fred vest said...

oops apologies, thought you had deleted it

(still i see you removed the part which talked about the policies you didn't agree with - which amusingly enough was empty anyway)

drakefell debaser said...

This release is poetic justice as far as I am concerned. What concerns me is that there are apparently childrens names on this list which indicates that parents are signing their children up to the party. I am not sure if there are current age restrictions to be a member of a political party, but if not, then they should be implemented for all to stop this exploitation

Jt said...

Go down to Lewisham market/shopping centre on any given day and every other person, regardless of colour is speaking a foreign language. It's like the United Nations, which is fine, it's diversity, but where are the white working class that used to populate that market.

Does anyone even care?

Anonymous said...

Catman - if you are really anti-globalisation (which is a perfectly reasonalbe stance), why are you working for a global accountancy firm that sends you to the US to work?

lb said...

"but where are the white working class that used to populate that market"

a) Some of them are still there, judging by the people I see there every week

b) Some became middle-class and moved away

c) Some moved away anyway thanks to a general drift of certain sectors of the population away from the inner cities (itself partly an outcome of post-war planning)

Does it really matter?

The main thing, surely, is that there's still actually something there. If it wasn't for Turkish or Bangladeshi shopowners half of commercial London would be a wasteland, and Tesco would be several billion pounds richer.

Anonymous said...

Hand up who's surprised that Andy is now considering voting BNP? Anyone....? erm....no.

Will you tick yes to the "I SLEEP WITH MEN" box on the membership form? You may get a 18 hole, steel capped Doc Martin in the teeth if you do.

fred vest said...

i thought being gay was compulsory if you wanted to reach the higher echelons (or at least making gay por.. sorty, art movies)

brockleybiker said...

"but where are the white working class that used to populate that market"

Lewisham Borough is 55.7 white British so maybe you just aren't looking hard enough...

Anonymous said...

Fred - am I missing something?

Anonymous said...

Fred!! you do realise that Andy does not have a sophisticated irony/humour/satire centre in his peanut brain. He can barely pick out a matching pair of socks let alone cope with that comment.

He'll now accuse you of being a homophobe and be shocked and offended.

(by the way everyone vote John Sargent on Sunday. Never seen the show but it is THE MOST IMPORTANT issue of the day and would represent a shift in public mood if he were to win. He represents silent majority of non-dancing manhood out there.)

fred vest said...

http://tinyurl.com/68jgvr


catford's finest, fiance of the BNP ballerina and step father of mixed race child

(incidently it was interesting to see from the member lists that barnbrook doesn't even live in the constituency he's meant to represent, i thought your main residence had to be in the constituency?)

drakefell debaser said...

Yeah the BNP is not just there to ensure steel bands don’t play at the local BRITISH fayre, they also tend to harbour homophobic view points as well.

Catman, why do you have Bengal Cats and not British Cats?

fred vest said...

"He'll now accuse you of being a homophobe and be shocked and offended"

well if he can get an admission out of me that i'd vote for a party that supported (explicitly or implicitly) the oppression of sexual/social freedom then he'd have a case

similar to what we have done to him viz a vis knowingly supporting a trojan horse racist party

fred vest said...

"they also tend to harbour homophobic view points as well"

they do, but there's definately a tension there between those who harbour those viewpoints and their own personal preferences, there's a rich tradition of that amongst the far right

look at haider for example

lb said...

Or Ernst Röhm, for that matter.

Brockley Kate said...

On second thoughts, I've removed my reference to the source. Given that these are people who live locally, this site's involvement in distributing their names and addresses is legally suspect.
I'd urge other BCers to show similar restraint please.

fred vest said...

remove my post if you want as well

Monkeyboy said...

It's like a road crash, you don't want to look but you can't help yourself! on top of the Quantum Physics interests, here are some of my other favourites...

"Has two suits of medieval 14th & 15th century armour and can joust for rallies"

"Committed Evangelical christian, attends bible studies/prayer meetings" [guess he must be nice really 'cos he believes in god]

"Senior citizen spends most of the year in Spain so chose to pay for overseas membership"

"Entertainer (patriotic"

"Swedish massage, aromotherapy, anatomy and physiology. Hobbies: metaphysics, cartoon drawing"

Anonymous said...

We live in an age of identity politics if you are a white working class male, how do you assert your identity in this social climate.

I hope that the revelation of the database is a further wake up call to policy makers and opinion formers. People are voting BNP for a reason. Policy makers need to address why.

Few here seem to care about these people

Jt said...

That was me, above Jt

lb said...

"Entertainer (patriotic)"

I dread to think.

I was amused by the language Griffin's response, as reported by the Grauniad; he said it wouldn't have any effect on the "stout hearts" of members. Stout hearts! What does he think this is, the chuffing Armada?

Headhunter said...

Kate - I don't think you need to worry, I tried to access the list through all the sources you and Fred suggested and none seem to work. I think it's been removed from the net

fred vest said...

"We live in an age of identity politics"

this is the problem, not the solution

fred vest said...

headhunter i hope your research techniques/skills are better in your employ than those demonstrated here!

max said...

Congratulations to the Cat Man for summing up so eloquently Adolf Hitler's policies.

Since you also passed the secret test (failing to spot the blindingly obvious) you now apply for the BNP membership, this provided that you can give proof of having squeezed either an ice cream or a banana over your fronthead.

LB said it, where are those "white working classes"? It can't be put better:
"a) Some of them are still there, judging by the people I see there every week

b) Some became middle-class and moved away

c) Some moved away anyway thanks to a general drift of certain sectors of the population away from the inner cities (itself partly an outcome of post-war planning)"

That's it! People move on. When I go to Italy I don't know anybody anymore in my neighbourhood. Does it bother me? Not at all.

Membership of the BNP is like a medical certificate that says that you have a problem with your skin, not with that of anybody else.
I have a childhood friend in Italy that became an active Nazi overnight, those that know him know that it's because of his conflictual relationship with his very strong father, a former boxing champion now in politics. That's it, there's nothing else to it.

A cousin of mine was a fascist active in the Social Movement (Italian heir to the fascist party) since teenage years and then one day he left wife and party becasue he had found the man of his dreams. Coming out sorted him.

By the way, I've been watching Qustion Time that's webcasted on the london.gov.uk website, there's Richard Barnbrook making a statement on crime and my God! I felt embarrassed for him. He's completely inadequate for his position.
For heaven's sake, he can't even speak well! How can you criticize immigrants when despite the privilege of a full education you can't express yourself correctly?

It's cheap and easy though, why go through the pains of psychological introspective research when you can just join the BNP and blame the foreigners or the Government.

fred vest said...

"there's Richard Barnbrook making a statement on crime and my God! I felt embarrassed for him. He's completely inadequate for his position"

he's a rambling idiot that couldn't hold onto a point if it was made out of velcro and was wearing gloves made out of the same

reminds me of someone here

Jt said...

I think you're right on this one Fred. Identity politics is becoming even more fractured. In the wake of Obama's election, we now had mixed race identity politics thrust into spotlight. Previously black/white mix were just black, politically black if not ethnically, now this is seen as denial of their identity, and so we have a new set of fracturing.

Headhunter said...

Fred - Are you saying it's still on Wikileak? I just got "file not found" or something when I clicked the link and on Piratebay my computer won't recognise the format of the list. Perhaps it's my IT skills...

Headhunter said...

....the blogspot just says something about the list having been removed...

fred vest said...

it's still there, but i don't want to bring any (perceived) trouble to this site by being specific

brockley mutha said...

I see one particularly active BNP member is also a particularly active member of Fathers 4 Justice. Interesting overlap there.

Anonymous said...

http://bnpmembershiplist-mirror.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html :-)

fred vest said...

the founder of fathers for justice, matt o'connor was the mayoral candidate for the english democrats (previously known as the english national party, and who are in favour of withdrawing from international conventions on asylum & refugees))this year, he subsequently dropped out after their campaign led to an investigation by the met polics under the race relations act (it was all about stupid jocks and the like)

his party also has strong links with a number of explict racist splinter partys/groups that have came out of the BNP

Anonymous said...

Not quite sure what the overlap between the BNP and Father's for Justice is Brockley Mutha? Is not Father's for Justice about access to children - the access being withheld illegally by the mother's despite court judgement?

fred vest said...

dressing up in funny costumes?

Anonymous said...

The only overlap this lot are worried about is that neither of them embrace anaemic environmentalism or ethical bollocks of the sort.

lb said...

Given that Fathers 4 Justice is a pressure group that appeals to those who (rightly or wrongly) consider themselves disenfranchised by the current system, I think the potential overlap is pretty obvious.

This does call into mind the amusing image of a placard-wielding Spiderman in a fist-fight with a group of Left activists.

Monkeyboy said...

Sorry, I can't help it. I think we should all know what our future MPs do in their spare time....

"Former pig farmer. Pagan prison chaplain. Hobbies: growing mistletoe, rune making (wood)"

"Activist. Membership suspended 20.9.05 (inappropriate tattoo). Suspension lifted 27.09.05"

"Resigned 17/9/07 (confused re. Party policy on ethnicity). Was 27836 (07). Re-joined 26/11/07" [Confused? it's not hard "we hate blacks" that's all]

"activist - Makes kites with BNP logos etc." [but not allowed to use scissors unsupervised I'm thinking]

brockley mutha said...

Fathers 4 Justice have had several problems in the past with their membership - at one point closed themselves down to effect a massive purge of their less savoury members.

The BNP/f4j member was last in the news for making some sort of protest against a domestic violence centre.

lb said...

There's an almost childish simplicity to some of the stuff on there. Can they really not have spotted the innate dodginess of someone having a hobby of "rune making", given the kind of people showing an interest in such 'runes' and iconography in the past? (Clue: Hugo Boss designed their uniforms, fact fans).

As for a political party who think kites are a suitable medium for advertising...well.

drakefell debaser said...

Under some of the names is states -'Proof of entitlement seen'

Any ideas what thats about?

fred vest said...

monkeyboy, this is a good one


Photographer (professional)Specialist in pre Raphaelite style portraiture. BA (Hons) Arts and Literature. Photo/Media/Journalism Diploma. Institute of Legal Executives (paralegal). Freelance writer: , environment, nature. PA experience: Request for absolute confidentiality

fred vest said...

proof of entitlement is for reduced subs, students, pensioners, etc..

Monkeyboy said...

This is Political Correctness gone mad!!

I shall be writing to Nick Griffen immediately.

max said...

"The only overlap this lot are worried about is that neither of them embrace anaemic environmentalism or ethical bollocks of the sort"

I think we have one of the heavy thinkers of the far right among us.

max said...

Possibly even Barnbrook's speechwriter.

Tressilliana said...

Anon 10.39 - bad news for you, I'm afraid.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7737447.stm

Anonymous said...

"I think the potential overlap is pretty obvious."

Yet, LB, you fail to state it. Instead of being condescending, perhaps answer a genuine question. Which Brockley Mutha did. Well.

max said...

My idea of Fathers 4 Justice is that they are largely a group of idiots that failing to understand what being a father entails now blame others for their own shortcomings.
The parallels with BNP membership are striking I'd say.

lb said...

I did state it. A "pressure group that appeals to those who (rightly or wrongly) consider themselves disenfranchised by the current system" both describes 'Fathers 4 Justice' and, as we were discussing above, the BNP.

I don't feel that they are necessarily correct in their perception of disenfranchisement, but it's clearly there - much of the BNP's rhetoric seems calculated to exploit this angle.

lb said...

And yeah, Max has summed it up very neatly.

Right-wing discourse (as that old Marxist warhorse Frederic Jameson once put it) consistently tends to inentify other people as the problem.

Anonymous said...

My idea of the Green Party is that they are largely a group of idiots that failing to understand what it means to live in the real world.
The parallels with BNP membership are striking I'd say.

The Cat Man said...

It is a shame the BNP have decided to define Britishness in terms of race as I think this is a rather large step backward.

I will make two further observations:

1. My comments have not yet been deleted (6 months ago exactly the same comments would of been)

2. Recently people have not critised my comments as much (previously I have been subject to significant personal attacks, probably due to people not understanding the issues).

What this means is that these issues are becoming political mainstream. I welcome that.

It also advocates why it was important for me to keep ear-bashing you all for a period of time.

I suspect its partly becuase people on here are fearful about their jobs and have noticed the issues are closer to home. About time.

max said...

Somebody call the Oxford Dictionary! The true meaning of tit for tat has finally been established.

Monkeyboy said...

phew thank the good lord for Andy, a voice or reason in the wilderness.

max said...

Cat Man, maybe people do not criticize your comments as much as they used to do because they feel that it's a waste of time to repeat oneself so much, that's true for me anyway. For each comment I write about your nonsense there are now ten times when I just read it and think "get lost" and move on to do something else.

And your comments on a thread about the BNP should not be deleted, in this case you are spot on.

lb said...

"1. My comments have not yet been deleted (6 months ago exactly the same comments would of been)"

I suspect that your comments, previously, have tended to be deleted because they attempted to shoehorn this 'issue' into practically any discussion. As even you cannot fail to have noticed, this thread is actually about the issue of people voting for this party.

"Recently people have not critised my comments as much"

Can't say I've seen that, Fred's been putting the boot in pretty much every day.

"I suspect its partly becuase people on here are fearful about their jobs and have noticed the issues are closer to home"

Suspect away, you're still wrong.

Headhunter said...

Ah got it... Actually there seem to be a lot of people on the list with SE postcodes, although as people have said, only a couple in SE4. Also interesting to see the number of people with "non-British" names, some of them look Eastern European. I guess they may well be several generations British.

Brockley Nick said...

Andy, rest assured, the reason your comments on this thread remain is not because any of the mods have suddenly been won round to your way of thinking thanks to your rambling, nasty. incoherent, inconsistent arguments, it's because this thread is actually about the BNP.

You get deleted when you try to inject bigotry in to conversations about flowerbed maintainence, cafes, fireworks and god-knows what else.

Anonymous said...

Organic fair trade mung beans.

Monkeyboy said...

Actually joking aside, and taking the piss out of the BNP tends to be my reaction, we should right off these people at our peril. I'm currently reading The Coming Of The Third Reich only a few chapters in but it is alarming how a modern, sophisticated nation can find itself supporting this kind of ideology. A combination of paranoia, distorted patriotism and a lack of credible alternatives can lead to all sorts of horrors. I hope (with every available digit crossed) that these muppets are too stoooopid to get really organised but the grown up parties need to get the great mass of people engaged.

got the day off so drinking tea and plotting the "Militant neo-Guardianista Takeover" Rise up! Mung beans for all men!! (and women obviously)

brockley mutha said...

And look there's one living in the phillipines. wonder what he finds to do there.

another in Oman

Anonymous said...

God knows how both BC and Transpontine failed to turn up any SE4 results, they're pretty plain to see to me.

I know its a stereotype that vegetarian hippies are generally slow, lethargic and useless but was that really the case here when finding the local members?

CTRL+F... "SE4".. the results come straight up.

Brockley Nick said...

When have I ever given the impression I'm a hippie?

I'm not veggie either.

Tressillian James said...

Andy - please don't subject us to an 'earbashing' on you pet themes for our own good. As the rest have mentioned: this thread is dealing with the BNP - you are not subverting anything.

As for us agreeing with your views - or coming around to your arguement - you are far from corerect. I, like Max, have decided not to repsond (a lot have publically said they will take that attitude here) so as not to derail other threads. However, I have also noticed that when someone does effectively challenge you (like the earlier comment about why you are working for a global company when you are anti-globalisation), you are strangely quiet.

brockley mutha said...

@ fred vest 11.47 - t hank you - that's interesting.

now i must draw a line under this - morbidly fascinating though it is. one final thought from me - medieval longbow! runes, battle enactment - saddos.

The Cat Man said...

tj, I really can't be bothered to answer stupid questions like that.

Does that mean all labour party members agree with going to war with IRAQ? No. Dont be stupid.

fred vest said...

"Can't say I've seen that, Fred's been putting the boot in pretty much every day."

to be fair, i've been at a bit of loose end

fred vest said...

"God knows how both BC and Transpontine failed to turn up any SE4 results, they're pretty plain to see to me."

the list first appeared on a blog with a vast number of alphabetical indexed pages, so searching on it wasn't as simple as searching one document (although to be fair it wasn't exactly difficult either)

Tressilliana said...

Why is it a stupid question, Andy? If I'd been a Labour party member I'd have left over the Iraq issue. Similarly, if I were in your position and opposed to globalisation I wouldn't work for one of the Big Five or Four or whatever the number is now. There's plenty of other work about for auditors, as you told us yourself when you confidently predicted that auditors' jobs wouldn't be at risk as a result of the credit crunch.

Anonymous said...

One needs to keep ones self in poppers somehow.

fred vest said...

to be fair it was a stupid question (although the general sentiment of catman going quiet when successfully challenged on, a task that's like taking sweets from a baby, is a good point)

it was also a stupid parallel in retort from catman

folk have to work for a living and that often leads us working for companies whom we don't neceassirly agree or endorse what they do, but most of us don't have the luxury to not work for them because of that, so personally i dont' see any contradiction between someone being adamantly anti-globalisation and them working for a globalised company who lust over further globalisation.

the parallel with the labour party/iraq war (or party politics and issues in general) however is ludicrious as you do engage in party politics through choice, not necessity

Tressillian James said...

Andy - you were the one who siad you supported the BNP on globalisation..

"I would consider voting for them in the next election and NOT because I agree with them on race, but for their stance on ...

...anti-globalisation (which I think has weakend serverely labour market wages in the UK, making most UK workers poorer and the non-working rich richer)."

so I do think it is a very valid question - and not a bit like a Labour supporter being anti-Iraq

Tressillian James said...

Fred - there are no shortage of auditor's positions in small, non global firms. I think the point I'm making is that Andy calims to feel so strongly about this, he seems to think it is a valid reason to elect the BNP (with their racist attitudes) into power. I'm calling him on this - and askiong, like someone else did, why he doesn't follwo through on his convictions in his daily life? He can't have his BNP cake and eat it too.

drakefell debaser said...

John Sergeant has let the 2 left feet side down by pulling out. Yes, he is a rubbish dancer but that’s not the point – he should stay until he is voted out regardless of whos feathers he ruffles. I suspect the producers are worried that their now tired show will be a little difficult to bring back in a few months if the winner can’t dance. (I am sure a crimbo special full of obscure celebrities is planned)

That book looks good MB, as you say the German people were not all harbouring fascist ideals and Hitler was often banned from making public speeches and was eventually imprisoned. The fear of communism and lack of credible alternatives gave him a window of opportunity, which he took and with a little help from his friends and a tireless propaganda machine he was suddenly calling all the shots to the dismay of many Germans. The mood of Germany also has to be taken into consideration, their economy was similar to the Zimbabwean one now (although I think bob now has the record) and their national pride was bruised from the defeat of WW1. Patriotism and nationalism can easily strike a chord when you have little else and that’s why you can never laugh these people off even if they do use kites to get their message out. Check out this young activist - http://ybnp.blogspot.com

I do think though that these parties have a built in self destruct button which is down to their inability to accept or reason with other peoples differences. The infighting starts once they realise that they cannot accommodate the differences amongst themselves either and they become paranoid and back stabbing. The leak by ex BNP members as we have seen is an example of this.

Catman, once again a giant leap to conclusions and mass generalisation. This thread is however your soap box for once and I for one need a laugh this afternoon.

Anonymous said...

Hypocracy isn't a new phenomenon to hit the politics of Brockley - see the eco warrors happily shoving grams of Columbian Finest up their noses every weekend...

max said...

Some BNP member trying to speak of something else?

fred vest said...

tj there are numerous contradictions in everyone's day to day lives, some of them could be called hypocrisy like the coke snorting middle classes who agonise over world problems, but there are others that are just part and parcel of the world we live in

just because you are against something which is so big that it completely envelopes our lives (i.e. globalisation) i don't see why you shouldn't at least get something out of it while having to live under it

i'm not a fan of wage labour/capitalism for example but i'd struggle to get by if i didn't embrace it in the here & now, that doesn't stop me however from having a critique of it, and a desire/hope that one day it may be replaced by a fairer social & economic means of organising society, you may call that (and catman's situation) as hypocrisy or being unfaithful to ideals, i call it pragmatism in getting by in life

max said...

Cat Man, have you seen that Young BNP blog that drakefell debaser mentioned?

They even have White History Month! That's for you mate. If you're under 12 you may join. The Black Shorts!

fred vest said...

to all those who think catman should quit his current employ and join a small audit firm, is it acceptable for the clients of said small audit firm to have global operations, is it acceptable for the technology & equipment used in said small audit firm to have been produced under a globalised system of production & exchange, is it ok that catman travels to work on trains made in japan or korea, if there are any non-british people in said small audit firm should catman leave it immediately

you can't not embrace globalisation so pulling him up for it is a stupid thing to do, especially when there are countless other more fruitful areas where he can easily be shown up for the idiot he is

Tressilliana said...

Well, yes and no, Fred. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I was an auditor working for one of the biggest accountancy firms in the world. I was brought up short by discovering that my firm audited De Beers (this was long before Nelson Mandela was freed). The relationship between auditor/tax/business adviser and client is a lot closer than that between someone making a one-off purchase from a company. The advice and services provided by the accountancy firm are what make it possible, in large part, to operate on a global scale. For example, the accountants are the ones (OK, with the lawyers) making it possible to keep the profits of multinationals in the country where they'll pay least tax.

Tressillian James said...

And Fred - I think you miss my point - Catman is advocating that a BNP in power (with all the other racist ills that brings) is the way to tackle this. He is suggesting a fairly radical solution - I am suggesting one nearer to home for him.

Tressillian James said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred vest said...

global firms are a sympton/product of the globalised world not a cause of it, fair enough they help to perpetuate it and profit from doing so, and if you have the luxury of being able to pick & choose what type of company you're going to work for then fair enough, however with unemployment about to hit 3million in the not too distant, i don't think there are many of us who have such luxuries

the only people who can afford to have such impeccable principles are those who are comfortably well off anyway, and i'm sure if you followed the money they use to so smugly wield those principles far enough back you'd discover 101 types of dirt in relation to it, so none of us can win i'm afraid, it catches us all out eventually, which is why i never see the point in trying to finger wag people for not being 100% true to their ideals, sure it's good to try and live your life as far as possible in accordance with them, but these days it's impossible to do so completely

and as i said before, there are a hundred open goals in relation to catman that can be put away at any time

fred vest said...

"And Fred - I think you miss my point - Catman is advocating that a BNP in power (with all the other racist ills that brings) is the way to tackle this. He is suggesting a fairly radical solution - I am suggesting one nearer to home for him!"

well first off he's not advocating them in power as a means of tackling this, he's advocating a big enough support for them being something which would then prompt other parties to tackle it.

plus, i don't see how catman leaving his employ and joining another one (slightly less global) is in any way either a) radical or b) a solution of any type

personal/private/lifestyle type solutions to global/societal problems are never going to have any impact other than imbue a smug personal satisfaction amongst those (who are well off enough to) doing it

jpm said...

Headhunter, I have the complete list.

max said...

Don't do as you say! Or it may look like you mean it.

Headhunter said...

JPM - Yeah I managed to get the list on the link one of the anons posted...

max said...

Like you can't spot one without the list.

fred vest said...

"Don't do as you say! Or it may look like you mean it"

that is surprisingly simplistic for a man of your intellegince max

(does the reverse work btw, if someone is all in favour of globalisation but works for a small local firm, should they be made to join a global mamoth so to be true to their principles?)

i agree with people taken principled stances in regards to politics/morality and things like that, but you can't really apply the same things to earning a wage (with some excpetions though), not in the society we live in, it always just ends up leading back to contradictions somewhere along the line (or used as a straw man argument against people)

fred vest said...

"Like you can't spot one without the list."

you seem to think that they are all knuckle dragging skinheads in ill fitting suits, as i said way up above, the publication of this list shows this is far from the case

fred vest said...

BNP heat map

http://www.drlurve.com/heatmap/output.jpg

fred vest said...

poor come back from the BNP's legal 'expert' Lee Barnes

seems to pretty much contradict griffin's stance as he took the airwaves this morning - what a bunch of muppets!

------

"The membership list that has been put on the internet contains real BNP members, but also many non-BNP members whose names have been added maliciously. For those people who have been named on the list all you need to do is deny you are a member if asked. Your employer cannot ascertain whether you are actually a real member of the BNP, and we will confirm that you are not a member if you ask us, and therefore the whole farsical situation is a sad joke. If required write to the BNP and we will confirm that you are not a BNP member. Just because a dodgy list has been aired on the internet does not make it a legitimate list...

"The ONLY legitimate membership list is one held by the BNP and the pseudo-list put on the internet is simply a mixture of real membership details and false ones... Any employer who seeks to use the list in order to damage an employees rights is guilty of a breach of Section 55 of the Data Protection Act, which is a criminal offence. Simply possessing a copy of the false membership list is a criminal offence, this is because some of the names on the list are real names and others are not... Any employer that sought to try and dismiss an employee on the grounds of an individual being named on the list is going to end up shelling out tens of thousands of pounds in compensation. Anyone who has any problems at work then just contact us and we will deal with it for you."

Tressilliana said...

'I'm not a BNP member and the BNP lawyer will back me up.'

Hmmmmm.

max said...

No Fred, I don't think that BNP members are all "knuckle dragging skinheads in ill fitting suits". But a bit of conversation reveals pretty quickly when one has those positions.
And I don't mean speaking politics, it's racist remarks that do it for them.

fred vest said...

in that case i agree with you max, i took 'spot' to mean a visual identification rather than identify them through other means

i stand corrected

max said...

Have you seen the episode of Peep Show where David Mitchell befriends a new collegue and starts hanging out with him failing to realize he's a complete racist nutter until he ends up in one of those Nazi Army enactment weekend camps? Phenomenally funny, and so true.

Monkeyboy said...

I must say one positive thing about the list is that it's uniting the mung bean eating liberals (of whom I am one) with the revolutionary marxists - not all bad then. ;) (bloody hate those 'smiley' things but I s'pose I ought to get down with the text generation)

drakefell debaser said...

Funny to see that the BNP now wish to use the Human Right Act to protect its members - legitimate or suffering from this so called malicious inclusion. Not sure from what exactly as the more liberal amongst us aren’t that renowned for setting other peoples cars on fire or punching people in the face for their beliefs.

I thought they were against this European legislation malarkey anyway?

Transpontine said...

Yes 'anonymous' I missed a few SE4 members when I first trawled through the list - actually the original was lots of different lists. I was searching through every SE London postcode late at night, as for being a 'slow and lethargic' 'hippie' (you really don't know me!), I think I was quicker off the mark than most in actually locating and searching the list at all.

Fathers 4 Justice and the BNP - yes there's a clear link in their pathetic attempt to claim victimhood status for social groups (i.e. blokes and white people) who have traditionally benefited from discrimination but have had their limited privileges challenged.

Brockley Nick said...

Just a point on Fathers4Justice - although I disagree with many of their arguments and their methods and no-doubt there are some very unsavoury characters involved in the group, there are legitimate points of grievance which need to be recognised.

In the case of unmarried fathers in particular, they have very few legal rights in relation to their children. Until fairly recent changes to the law, unmarried fathers had no automatic legal status in relation to their children, which leaves them in a very precarious position, particularly if the relationship breaks down in accrimonious circumstances.

We also need to recognise that many men who support the cause do so because they are in great pain at the loss of their children - not because of some misplaced sense of victimhood.

Pedant said...

Cat Man:
"1. My comments have not yet been deleted (6 months ago exactly the same comments would of been)"

would HAVE
would HAVE
would HAVE

You get it wrong EVERY time....."could of", "would of", "should of"....

I know, I know, it SHOULDN'T be as aggravating as the actual views expressed, but it just IS....

Anonymous said...

Agreed with Brockley Nick. There is genuine injustice there that they're fighting against.

Whilst it may be tempting for some, like Transpontine, to take the lazy view of "white blokes have always benefitted, therefore screw 'em" - such views only foster the type of inequalities that they protest about on their mung bean-fuelled blogs.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

Three cheers for Pedant

Hip Hip Hooray
Hip Hip Hooray
Hip Hip Hooray

Must admit to being a bit of a closet pedant myself...

Headhunter said...

Yes I must admit to noticing the grating inaccuracy of Cat Man spelling and grammar....

brockley mutha said...

oh ditto ditto. long live pedantry

Tressillian James said...

I'm a closet pedant - I litter my posts with typos just to fool you all

jpm said...

I like that double-bluff from the BNP that Fred Vest found.
Does this mean that the BNP will 'black' up those who are NOT members, thereby outing those who really are because they are not? If you catch my drift.

nobbly brick said...

"no-doubt there are some very unsavoury characters involved in the group"

that seems to be a very scathing comment - what evidence have you got for this?

fred vest said...

well the founder, matt o'connor for one and his links with explicitly racist BNP splinter groups, or unless you count people who want to tear up international conventions on asylum & refuguee as 'savoury'

brockley mutha said...

Griffin welcomed the publicity the story had garnered for the party, saying the list showed the perception of the average BNP member as a "skinhead oik" was "simply not true".

Indeed - the rune readers, medieval long bow experts, jousters, battle re-enacters portray a much more positive image.

The Cat Man said...

Have you not considered that maybe some of the BNP members themselves are not even racist?

Like i said before, you dont need to agree with everything they say in order to vote or support them.

fred vest said...

"Have you not considered that maybe some of the BNP members themselves are not even racist?"

i think a huge proportion of people who vote for the BNP aren't racist, however i don't think i'd extend that to members, especially active members

max said...

Almost no one will think of themselves as racists, often absolving themselves with the completely childish reasoning that a racist is one that considers one race above others whilst I only want foreigners to be sent home like you Cat Man do.
In fact the difference between a racist or a xenophobe is pretty semantic. If some idiots attack somebody in the street for one reason or another the result is the same.
And probably they feel entitled to do what they do because it's not just them yobs that think like they do, there's also delicate souls like accountants of Rune Kite runners that feel that their Country needs defending from the foreigners and the threat they pose to their culture and coucil housing list.

Monkeyboy said...

I suspect that that a lot of people who go to church don't actually believe in God but I think most people would agree that the Catholic church.....

actually I can't be bothered. I need a cup of tea.

(fred treat your self, and have a Hob Nob too. Leave Andy, he's obviously going through some real torment trying to align his core visceral feelings with his outward display of intellectualism - he has TWO degrees you know)

nobbly brick said...

do Fathers4Justice, in promoting their efforts for their rights in regard to their children, propound BNP values as part of this fight?

Transpontine said...

ANON, I don't take the view that "white blokes have always benefitted, therefore screw 'em", what I think is laughable is for Fathers4Justice to claim that men/fathers in general are downtrodden compared with women/mothers. Yes, Nick some individual fathers might have legitimate grievances, but I am more concerned about women trying to get away from violent partners. It is for instance, almost entirely men/fathers rather than women who physically abuse and kill their partners and their children.

Likewise I don't think most white working class people have benefited greatly from racism but the fact is when black people were being turned away from jobs, housing and pubs by definition it benefited some white people who did get those jobs/flats/seats at the bar instead. Now this is no longer tolerated the BNP is trying to present white people as the victims when all that has happened is that they/we are now in the same position as black people - not a worse position than them.

The Cat Man said...

I think the problem is that current 'established' politicial thought is bonkers.

If you are white you are not allowed to join the black police association, for example, even if you wanted to combat racism. Yet the black police force is apparently accepted as legitimate even though they promote racism.


Positive discrimination does not work, it only creates a new form of discrimination - one which we are beginning to see quite clearly.

The BNP i think are trying to highlight this albiet sometimes they go to far.

Did you know that my firm has even banned a christmas party? But yet, its happy to celebrate the hindu 'festival of light' for a day. Instead we have a 'festive' party just so we do not promote christianity.

These problems exist. Only idiots would think they didn't.

The Cat Man said...

As for fathers for justice, I can speak from my own personal experience (my parents divorced when I was 5) that my father was effectively frozen out from my upbringing.

The courts assume a mother would be best to raise a child, schools refused to send exam results to my father and indeed, in terms of various different requests to see me my father was effectively banned without my mothers consent.

This is despite my father having a better job, better housing, living standards etc.. and a wider extended family to support me.

Anything fathers for justice do is quite rightly justified.

max said...

You're an apologist for stupidity.
I rest my case.

max said...

Cat Man wrote:
"If you are white you are not allowed to join the black police association, for example, even if you wanted to combat racism. Yet the black police force is apparently accepted as legitimate even though they promote racism."

From the National Black Police Association:

"The definition of "Black" does not refer to skin colour.
The emphasis is on the common experience and determination of the people of African, African-Caribbean and Asian origin to oppose the effects of racism. Everyone within policing is eligible to join the NBPA (There is no barrier to membership)"

max said...

The BNP membership is restricted to "Indigenous Caucasian" (whites).

max said...

Actually "indigenous caucasian" means white and born here so I for one, should I lose my marble and start blaming others for my failures could not join in with all the other BNP cryers because I was not born here.

The Cat Man said...

Oh Max please, it was highlighted on Newsnight last week.

White people are only allowed to become associate members, not full members because of their skin colour.

I'm happy to correct myself if I am wrong, but I am not on this matter. So please correct yourself and please listen.

"In a speech to the National Black Police Association annual conference, he also slammed the organisation for not allowing white people interested in fighting racism to become full members."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1081318/Tory-MP-addresses-National-Black-Police-Association-annual-conference--blasts-THEM-racist.html

The Cat Man said...

The black police association is very racist.

max said...

They can still join, even if with a special membership, and it's an association that's been formed by victims of racism for the purpose of combating racism in their workplace, quite different form the BNP that is not open to non white and British at all.
To make a parallel between a worker's association and a party that runs for public office is stupid!

Brockley Nick said...

Transpontine please provide a link to prove that statistic.

That aside, I think you are confusing two different issues. No reasonable person would suggest that violent, dangerous or abusive fathers should be given more access to their children, but that is a separate point.

Most fathers (and I hope I can be let off providing a link to this stat) are not violent, dangerous or abusive. In theses cases, when the father wants to play an active role in the upbringing of their child, it is right that the system should try and find a way of giving them fair access (equality of access is very difficult to achieve, for practical reasons).

The sad truth is that when family relationships break down, people do not always behave reasonably and the law ought to have a duty to represent all sides. It is arguable (and I believe it to be true) that the legal system favours - on balance - the mother in the majority of these cases and that fathers' relationship with their children can suffer badly as a result - to the detriment of all parties.

To imply as you do that all fathers who feel this way are misogynists is not only ignorant, it is completely lacking in empathy.

In my own case, I became a parent at 25 as a result of a happy accident, with a woman I hadn't known for long. Shortly after my son was born, she decided that our relationship had no future. We parted amicably and remain good friends to this day, bringing up our son together. I'm also lucky that I have a wonderful wife and family. But should my friendship with the mother break down for whatever reason, I would have next to no legal entitlement to see my son and my access is heavily reliant on this goodwill.

Not a day goes by without me wondering how it must be for men who are not such good friends with their partners or whose circumstances are not quite so fortunate. I feel great sympathy for those men and the cause that some of them campaign for.

And it sickens me that some people, whose opinions I otherwise respect, can dismiss their heartache or deny that their problems are worth addressing.

These issues are upsetting and incredibly difficult for all sides.

Your lazy insinuations do us all a disservice.

The Cat Man said...

you need to do your research better there are quite a few black BNP voters, ad highlighted by the independent not so long ago.

And are you saying that White people can't suffer from racism? Tell that to the white unfrtground worker who recently won his court case against his black colleagues.

Are you seriously telling me it's ok for the black police association to discriminate towards White people in terms of membership because they are White? You are crazy.

Explains why you are often racist towards my comments though. Hey, you should join the BNP.

The Cat Man said...

nick, for once I think we gave a similar viewpoint on something (I.e fathers for justice). Glad it has worked out well for you. It's only really when you experience these things you begin to understand.

max said...

Cat Man, here's for your education, from the BNP Constitution:

"SECTION 2: MEMBERSHIP
1) The British National Party represents the collective National, Environmental, Political,
Racial, Folkish, Social, Cultural, Religious and Economic interests of the indigenous
Anglo-Saxon, Celtic and Norse folk communities of Britain and those we regard as
closely related and ethnically assimilated or assimilable aboriginal members of the
European race also resident in Britain. Membership of the BNP is strictly defined
within the terms of, and our members also self define themselves within, the legal
ambit of a defined ‘racial group’ this being ‘Indigenous Caucasian’ and defined ‘ethnic
groups’ emanating from that Race as specified in law in the House of Lords case of
Mandla V Dowell Lee (1983) 1 ALL ER 1062, HL.
2) The indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ‘Indigenous
Caucasian’ consist of members of: i) The Anglo-Saxon Folk Community; ii) The Celtic
Scottish Folk Community; iii) The Scots-Northern Irish Folk Community; iv) The
Celtic Welsh Folk Community; v) The Celtic Irish Folk Community; vi) The Celtic
Cornish Folk Community; vii) The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic Folk Community; viii) The
Celtic-Norse Folk Community; ix) The Anglo-Saxon-Norse Folk Community; x) The
Anglo-Saxon-Indigenous European Folk Community; xi) Members of these ethnic
groups who reside either within or outside Europe but ethnically derive from them.
3) Membership of the party shall be open only to those who are 16 years of age or over
and whose ethnic origin is listed within Sub-section 2"

fred vest said...

"you need to do your research better there are quite a few black BNP voters, ad highlighted by the independent not so long ago"

and you need to read what's posted better, someone voting BNP and someone being a member are not the same things

as has been pointed out on numerous occasions now, BNP membership is not (yet) open to blacks, asians etc.. they have been contemplating opening up membership but that's purely a pragmatic stance to stave off some potentially financially crippling lawsuits that could be coming their way

max said...

He was playing the usual idiotic game, we were talking of membership and found out of having talked bollocks he switched to voters instead of members pretending of not understanding the meaning of words.
That's why there's less people answering him, it's just too boring really.

Nina said...

http://www.bnpnearme.co.uk/

A map that shows you how many people from the BNP member's list live in each postcode.

brockleybiker said...

That's brilliant.

Transpontine said...

Nick I am a father myself and do know of cases where some men have less access than maybe they should - and sympathise with them. But I cannot go along with the idea that the system as a whole discriminates against men - it is extremely rare for courts to refuse fathers access even where there is a history of violence - which is why I mention it.

I also mention violence because the complexity of family law is only part of the picture in the relationships between men and women/fathers and mothers. In this wider context it is absurd to portray fathers as a group as victims. I don't think anybody can doubt that male on female family violence is worse than the other way round. One statistic - there are many others - 95% of people who kill their kids and then themselves in the UK (so-called murder-suicides) are men (Guardian 24.9.2008).

That doesn't mean than more than a minority of fathers are violent, but it is part of the picture.

Don't want to discuss your circumstances Nick, but it is not true that you have no rights. If you are on the birth certificate you automatically have a right to equal parental responsibility, and in normal circumstances there is not a court in the land that wouldn't grant you access to see your child if it came to that. Contrary to the one-sided arguments of Fathers for Justice, most people in the system fully understand that it is the interests of the child to have contact with both parents.

Transpontine said...

My initial analysis of numbers of BNP members across theSouth East London postcode area missed out some - I now reckon there are just over 100. Deptford is a BNP free zone, New X nearly so (1), Brockley has 4. A former Greenwich Conservative council canditate is among the members.

Anonymous said...

Transpontine how many injustices do there have to be before a justice campaign has a valid cause? Would you tell amnesty they were encouraging violent crime because some political prisoners are violent thugs?

Anonymous said...

transpontine the system might well be mostly ok but that means nothing if you're one of the people who doesn't get fair treatment. And if you don't think the system's perfect then surely it's fair to campaign for something better.

As for being one sided, that's the nature of campaign groups. Especially when the emotional stakes are so high.

Anonymous said...

What a strange statistic to show to try and support your case: "One statistic - there are many others - 95% of people who kill their kids and then themselves in the UK (so-called murder-suicides) are men"

Becuase of this fact , we should say that fathers cannot be victims? The actions of deranged, often suicidal men (and this is not widespread) does not negate that fact that some women are witholding access to children from loving and caring fathers - and if these men cannot get redress through the courts, then they are victims; and their plight to be empathised with.

max said...

That's true, but it looks to me that F4J proposals would do nothing for those situations.
http://tinyurl.com/5bb6ax

And aren't there already ways that a parent that cannot see his/her children against an agreement can pursue to have the agreed rights respected?
I'm asking because I don't actually knwo.

fred vest said...

"A former Greenwich Conservative council canditate is among the members."

in total 11 former tory and 4 former labour councillors

Transpontine said...

Fred: 'in total 11 former tory and 4 former labour councillors'

... and I think some Green ones, but the Greenwich case is the only one I could see locally.

fred vest said...

yep, i'd mentioned the greens back in a previous post so left them out there, even an ex-chairman of the local green party in essex on there (who also happens to be a reverend!)

while these kind of stats are fun, i think a more important one is the fact that out of the 10,000 odd members, just over 3,000 are regarded as activists, the real number of actual activists is probably less than this, and this group of people is the BNP, the other 7,000 paper members probably aren't that much more distinguishable from the persistent non-member voters (other than as a source of a regular income for the party)

the other thing that i found interesting was that on this list, which is from autumn 07, london had about 500 members, the official figure for london members in september this year was 900, which is a pretty impressive 80% growth in the year - again though assuming only 30% of these are activists it's still an increase of 120 activists in the london area in a year

but regardless of all this, targetting BNP members or activists won't stem the problem, it's not the 70's anymore, the disease not the symptom needs to be addressed

Transpontine said...

Break-ups are messy, sometimes fathers feel they lose out, sometimes mothers do. Individuals of both sexes may feel injustice, sometimes rightly. I can think of fathers I know who I personally think their exes have stitched up, I can think of mothers I know who live with police panic alarms while their violent exes wander from pub to pub with sob stories of how hard done by they are. Overall I don't think there are injustices against fathers as a whole - others may disagree.

My original point - which may be a bit nuanced for the cut and thrust of blog commenting - is that Fathers4Justice and the BNP use a similar discourse of victimhood which is out of proportion to the injustice, if indeed there is any injustice at all. This is quite a new phenomenon.

Traditionally groups like the BNP have openly argued for white supremacy - that white people are dominant and should stay that way. Likewise anti-feminists used to say that men were superior and of course they should have legal rights to reflect this (like in the past children being regarded as the father's legal property). As things have got a bit more equal, we have seen groups inverting this and claiming that as a result of our old Daily Mail friend 'political correctness gone mad', white people and men are now becoming oppressed groups. Whereas by any objective measure this is not the case - if you look at things like distribution of wealth and power. This is not about slagging off all men and white people, or saying they've all got it rosy, but about criticising a disproportionate cult of victimhood.

On a wider level this kind of faux-victimhood can be seen every day in the comments on this site - usually from Cat Man admittedly - people who seem to have a quite good life in terms of job, housing etc. moaning about how oppressed they are because they can't join the Black Police Association (er.. you also have to be a police officer) or whatever. God help us if Daily Mail-type middle class self-pity ever crosses the divide to make common cause with the BNP.

fred vest said...

"God help us if Daily Mail-type middle class self-pity ever crosses the divide to make common cause with the BNP."

i've said it before and i'll say it again, this is more likely to happen post-list

fred vest said...

griffin has also personally came out of this very well, loads of tv & radio appearances and managed to come across fairly professionally and not like a deranged nutter (even though he is)

lb said...

"Whereas by any objective measure this is not the case - if you look at things like distribution of wealth and power"

Transpontine, I couldn't agree more. There are no major groups to protect the 'rights' of white males in UK society because, until recently, they had almost complete social and legal dominance, and the structures that govern our daily lives are still essentially shaped according to this form; their 'rights' are essentially secure. This, as any fule kno, is why the National Black Police Association exists, and other bodies like it.

This all seems an incredibly obvious point, but certain organisations have been very skilled in borrowing the rhetoric of 'genuine' minority activism, and Catman's comments above show just how eagerly some people have swallowed them - he's not even their main target audience, I suspect. It's an old tactic of Right discourse, easily discerened by anyone with a bit of historical knowledge: blaming everything on a cabal of (liberal) pen-pushing intellectuals and the minorities they supposedly protect. It was the same with George Wallace in the 1970s US; it was essentially the same message with the Freikorps in the 1920s, terrifyingly enough. If this kind of thing really does combine with middle-class self-pity, as you say, then I really despair.

lb said...

Anon. "if these men cannot get redress through the courts, then they are victims"

Yes, but as was pointed out, there's no reasonable court in the country that wouldn't allow access under these circumstances.

Anonymous said...

Yes access is granted by the courts; but the mother then withholds (and by the way this isn't a just a white male thing, it can happen to us all); the man goes back to the courts who are sympathetic; the mother still withholds or moves away. It has happened. It does happen.

The Cat Man said...

ib, i have my own political thoughts and have not 'swallowed' anything from anyone (*ahem*) but just to clarify, there are many positive discrimination laws effectively prohibiting opportunities for white men.

Like I said before, the police have quotas to reach. They will employ ethic people not based on their merit but in order to reach quota targets. This means that sometimes they wil accept ethnic recruits with lower skills and even pay them higher wages in order to meet these targets. What do you think this does to their white colleagues when they see this happening?

This is wrong both from a public sector efficiency perspective but all from an equal opportunities perspective.

There are many other examples but I cant really be arsed to outline them all on here. Apart from maybe one or two people most people seem to have already concluded its ok to discriminate towards white men.

RE: Fathers for Justice. i will re-iterate what I said above. My own experience indicates that the court system most certainly does discriminate towards fathers. I am not a father, but the son of divorced parents. My father has kept letters from schools, authorities effectively showing that he tried to get involved in my upbringing but couldn't.

I will also add that it comes from a cultural trait. i.e. that women somehow need to be protected, (*thou shall not hit a woman etc..)but again this is bonkers, men and women are supposed to be equal but we are not. Historically, the courts favoured women but the current politicial correctness forbids us to consider that actually we need to address the discrimination towards men.

Of course, besides the court system the effective banning of the father to participate is backed up by most of the couples friends siding with the mother.

max said...

Well,if you think about it access to children by estranged parents is one of those things that can only rely on the good will of the parts.
Courts can only go so far, unless you want a dedicated police force to verify broken family situations and enforce the rights of fathers.
But that would not be in the interst of children as it would be rather intrusive and the Daily Mail would call it nanny state then.

I read the F4J website yesterday and the 2 things I left wee 1) their leader has the ego of a zeppelin 2) their proposals are unconvincing.

Headhunter said...

Eltham's a bit of a hotbed! 17 members!

patrick1971 said...

"I do think though that these parties have a built in self destruct button which is down to their inability to accept or reason with other peoples differences. The infighting starts once they realise that they cannot accommodate the differences amongst themselves either and they become paranoid and back stabbing."

Which is why, of course, that there are so many endless splinter groups in left wing politics, which generally seem to operate under "with us or against us". Left and right wing politics have a lot more in common than they'd like to think.

max said...

As the cross contamination between Daily Mail self pity and BNP racism is mentioned Cat Man appears with another daily load of disingenuous lies.

The problem is that you don't know how to tackle those people. I mean, if I had been caught lying just a fraction of the times the Cat Man has been I would have slashed my wrist in shame.
He can't give a monkey. Admirable in some strange ways.

patrick1971 said...

"Historically, the courts favoured women"

Do you know any history at all? Until the middle years of this century, courts were prejudiced in favour of the man in any family court dispute. Rape within marriage was considered an impossibility; a woman who left her husband would automatically lose any rights to contact with her children; until 1884, a married woman had no property rights. There's some history for you.

patrick1971 said...

That should, of course, read "until the middle years of the last century".

Tressillian James said...

Catman - can you explain the follwoing further:

"I will also add that it comes from a cultural trait. i.e. that women somehow need to be protected, (*thou shall not hit a woman etc..)but again this is bonkers, men and women are supposed to be equal but we are not. "

You can't link protecting women against violence with the need for sexual equality. Am I missing something from your argument. Domestic abuse (and I know it happens both ways) is a serious issue and unfrotunately an all too common part of relationships in the UK and elsewhere around the world. Women need all the protection form abusive husbands that we can afford them.

brockleybiker said...

Rape within marriage was only made illegal in 1990.

"Traditionally groups like the BNP have openly argued for white supremacy - that white people are dominant and should stay that way. Likewise anti-feminists used to say that men were superior and of course they should have legal rights to reflect this (like in the past children being regarded as the father's legal property). As things have got a bit more equal, we have seen groups inverting this and claiming that as a result of our old Daily Mail friend 'political correctness gone mad', white people and men are now becoming oppressed groups. Whereas by any objective measure this is not the case - if you look at things like distribution of wealth and power. This is not about slagging off all men and white people, or saying they've all got it rosy, but about criticising a disproportionate cult of victimhood."

I think this is spot on.

The Cat Man said...

I wasnt referring to abuse but about the common perception that women should be protected by men. So even if a women is a complete bitch, hits/punches a man the man is culturally not accepted to hit her back even if it was justified in the context.

Tressillian James said...

I think the man can call the Police as women have had to do over the last century...but anyway - I'm outta here...

Bea said...

Catman

What on earth do you mean by:

“I will also add that it comes from a cultural trait. i.e. that women somehow need to be protected, (*thou shall not hit a woman etc..)but again this is bonkers, men and women are supposed to be equal but we are not.”?

You are bonkers if you think it is OK for both men and women to hit each other? Surely all physical violence between men and women is wrong! (Apart from the fact that most men are physically stronger than women and are far more likely to do more damage)

Men and women are equal in the eyes of the law! I think you are confusing physicality and equal rights.

Just another example of your warped logic!

lb said...

Yes, yes, but was John Sergeant right to quit 'Strictly Come Dancing'? This is what the country needs to know.

Of course, I wasn't so sure about him phoning Andrew Sachs.

fred vest said...

i conflated two stories yesterday with that and thought he had quit it because he had been on the list

Monkeyboy said...

Save the Dancing Pig!!

(no doubt our regular contributor will suggest that the Jews/Muslims actually run the BBC and they were offended by a waltzing pork product)

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