#Bakernooisham - southern extension consultation launches today

TfL's public consultation on the southern extension of the Bakerloo Line opens later today. The options for the line, include a route via Camberwell and Peckham or a route via the Old Kent Road with both routes converging on New Cross Gate and then on to Ladywell and Catford. Mayorwatch reports:

Michèle Dix, TfL’s Managing Director of Planning, has also said the line could be connected with the rail line to Hayes “which would mean existing rail services would no longer operate on this line, but the Bakerloo line would operate instead.”

A further option allows for the line to be extended to Beckenham Junction to connect with the Tramlink or Bromley town centre.

Lewisham Labour has launched an opportunistic petition, calling for the line to come to Lewisham, which seems a little redundant, other than as a way of getting some reflected glory for the project, when it comes. They're also studiously avoiding mentioning which route they prefer, lest they upset anyone, but it seems fairly obvious that they would favour the New Cross route, on the basis of its regeneration potential.

However, they deserve some credit for making the case for the line over the last few years and for coining the natty name Bakerlooisham (which should of course be #Bakernooisham).

The new line is slated to begin operating in 2040, but the smart money is on this project being brought forward by a decade or so, as South East London transport overheats.

Click here to take part in the consultation.

29 comments:

anon said...

Why New Cross not New Cross Gate? No connection at all to the East London Line and anyone south of New Cross Gate if it goes the "main" route they are proposing ... pretty bad!

ira vine said...

Lewisham Labour were similarly opportunistic when they jumped on the Save Lewisham Hospital campaign bandwagon - they have no shame

anon said...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29422425



Ahh it's NXG thank goodness.


Campaign hard for Brockley! I think the tube could support both routes to be honest!

Michael_FH said...

BBC map does not show either route going to Brockley but instead they both go to New Cross Gate. Once the real consultation is published it will be interesting to see if Brockley remains an option.

My view is that the Brockley route doesn't make much sense. Either take the line to Lewisham via Old Kent Road (not Peckham) or take the route from Peckham via Crofton Park to Catford - which avoids a massive loop round Hilly Fields.

Scott said...

There's going to be a hell of a lot of opposition from those living on the Hayes line. To get to London Bridge, these folk will now have to change at Lewisham. Lewisham will become an uber congested interchange, perhaps more so than Canada Water is currently.

monkeyboy said...

@ira "jumping on the bandwagon?" its the boroughs hospital, they decided to fund the legal action at no small risk. Doubt the case would have made it to court without that, its the kind of wagon i want my representatives to jump on.

Anon said...

The BBC Map is the official TFL version so I think the one in this article is a bit misleading and should maybe be replaced.


In terms of Camberwell vs Old kent Road it is a choice between boosting an area which is already improving quickly or regenerating an entire area of London which is unlikely to get any better without this investment.


I therefore think the Old Kent Road looks like a massive favourite.

anon said...

Question 18:

Are there any other options or routes you think we should consider to support growth and increase public transport accessibility in southeast London?





Brockley!!

Olaf_Hansen said...

Perhaps, you could provide a bit more detail on the reasons why the proposed extension should go to Brockley ...

Kate said...

but the route does go to New Cross....

DT said...

I wish it could stop at both New Cross and New Cross Gate. Btw, the East London Line does stop at New Cross.

Olaf_Hansen said...

In my view, the following 2 paragraphs from that consultation page stand out:

"As has been the case for other major infrastructure projects (such as Crossrail and the Northern Line Extension), any funding package is likely to include contributions from new residential and commercial developments along the proposed extension.

This means that in order for the Bakerloo line extension to be progressed, further development along the proposed route is required. It is unlikely the extension can happen without this new development."

So given this requirement and the existence of a vast number of single storey warehouses and car parks on Old Kent Road, it looks like this route is the favorite as you say.

Can anyone explain where develop opportunities might exist on the Peckham route which would help fund it?

anon said...

It could use the existing line (Peckham-Nunhead-Brockley-Lewisham), therefore making it significantly cheaper.

THNick said...

Some warehouses on Walworth road, Bussey Building, scaffolding yard and various old factories around Peckham Rye. But I suspect those will get developed anyway as Peckham has good transport links already, whereas OKR is a desert. Interesting option would be to do both, but I'll be surprised.

THNick said...

Interesting that both options are underground to NXG, I thought they were considering using current tracks from Denmark Hill to Nunhead/Brockley...

Chris said...

If they were I'm sure it was discounted pretty quick, there simply isn't the available capacity as the Bakerloo could not share with other services given the proposed frequencies.

Scott said...

Thing is, people on the Hayes line currently have rush hour express services into London Bridge that bypass New Cross, St Johns and Lewisham, slashing around 10 minutes from their commute time. What your proposing is certainly an option, but it would make it a very slow journey for those Hayes line commuters, as they will face journeys with up to five additional stops and a change from Lewisham to London Bridge. Not ideal.

anonymous said...

My only hope is that TFL recognises the need for this project to be implemented sooner and build it before we all reach the pension age.

ergh said...

I love how they put "as early as 2030" for the potential opening date of the extension. There's no way London is going to be able to cope with its current tube infrastructure for another 16 years under the current rate of population growth.

lord rodgers said...

Underground platforms at Lewisham . . . Oh yes DT - and where exactly would the tube line emerge in Ladywell considering it has to consume acres of land?
Well, yes, of course, raze the properties on algernon road, that'll do the trick . . .

SPPP2 said...

Nine years before even starting? Christ alive the UK is pathetic with infrastructure. The extension has only been on the drawing board since 1931.


And it's not as if there isn't a dire need for far more houses across London & along the Old Kent Road is perfect. The population of London will go up by 1 million more people in the next 10 years alone. The Old Kent Road could become a major boulevard type street with very high density housing alongside with tens, if not hundreds of thousands of homes built on disused former industry and all those out of town warehouse like shops and car parks.


Of course the plan is to leave it to the large developers to do build the needed houses and contribute funding - and they build at a snails pace to keep land prices high, then sell at a price where many homes are only affordable to overseas 'investors' so contributions go in very slowly and it takes 20-30 years to do something the French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese etc would do in 5.


Freeing up 6 trains an hour from London Bridge would also allow more trains to run on other lines where house building should be sped up with the extra capacity. But all this requires local and central government taking the lead, and not relying on big developers.

DT said...

The reason I said that is... I can't see the 4 track section between New Cross and Lewisham capable of holding 15 additional Bakerloo trains per hour. They would have to widen that to 6 track and knock down properties around St Johns and those tracks are in a big cutting. The whole point of this project would be to send the 6 trains that Hayes has to other destinations like Orpington/Dartford way.

Tressilly said...

It says new cross gate. What are you on about?

Double Too U said...

Had to happen.
And it also explains why buying a 5 bed family house in SE6 for less than a million squid is now as likely as finding the doctor's open at the weekend.

Monkeyboy said...

This is a good sober analysis. http://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/haykerloo-bakerlewisham/

burro said...

With regards to extension to New Cross Gate - would it not be more effective to extend to New Cross station? NXG already gets most of the overground traffic which then connects on to Brockley and beyond, it does not serve any other stations. NX, however, has a limited overground service and is within connecting distance of Deptford Station and Deptford Bridge DLR. Extending to NX would connect the major commercial area of Deptford High Street and the market to the tube network.

anon said...

Having it at NXG means all the overground can connect, that would be the main idea behind it. Also having it at Lewisham will allow all the other lines to connect as well ....

Alex said...

Would make sense (to me) to build the underground station in between the two New Cross stations, connecting the two up and allowing people to change to more lines (may also help relieve the transfer congestion at Lewisham). Most of the land in between is a park, so presumably easier to put a station under there than buildings/infrastructure.

Matt-Z said...

A double-ended station is not a bad idea but the distance between New Cross and New Cross Gate stations is about 700 metres and the Bakerloo line trains are around 115 metres long. So, if the station was central between the two you'd be looking at up to 300 metres from either end to get to the tube. To put it in perspective that's twice the length of the travelator from the Northern line to the Jubilee at Waterloo, and hardly a convenient or quick interchange. By contrast if the Hayes branch was being joined onto a proper Crossrail-style link from south east to north west London, things might be different. The 12 car trains it can handle are nearly 250 metres long, which would make a double-ended station more practical. As mentioned there's a well-informed debate about this over on London Reconnections. The general feeling there is that the Bakerloo won't come to Brockley, and I have to agree.

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