New Brockley mural vote

A few weeks ago, one of the murals near Brockley station was destroyed. The mural depicted Jimi Hendrix and was part of a set of three panels celebrating "Heroes and Heroines". So the third panel has become Brockley's fourth plinth.

As part of the Brockley MAX festival, local artist Chris Getliffe www.getliffe.com has offered to create a new design on 3rd and 4th June and Brockley Max would like your help in deciding what appears there. Here are the themes he's asked you to choose between:

- Kindness Of Strangers
- Old Friends
- New loves
- A Truly Significant Thing
- Journeys
- What doesn’t kill you can only make you stronger

There is a new poll in the right-hand column that you register your vote on and we'd welcome your thoughts and comments here.

Thanks to Chris and to the organisers of the MAX for offering to restore this part of Brockley's character.

103 comments:

Anonymous said...

How long before it gets painted black though?

Brockley Kate said...

Can't we have another hero though? It would look a bit odd otherwise. Keep the triptych, I say.

Hugh said...

May I suggest Margaret Thatcher? Admittedly, somewhat radical to promote the idea of working for a living rather than enjoying long-term welfare dependency on Brockley Road.

The Cat Man said...

lol. no comment!

I fail to see how the existing murials are heros though? presumably they asked only a certain proportion of our community. social inclusiveness et all.

I'm glad we have been asked our opinions. I would of liked an option to celebrate our local history, but why did that not appear? Brockley has an interesting past, lets not forget it.

Anonymous said...

I like the hero idea. Start from scratch - Superman/Spiderman/Batman

Anonymous said...

Mags? why not. As she was instrumental in kicking off laissez-faire economics in this country it would be entirely appropriate that she be represented at the moment. Perhaps urinating on benefits claimant?

Trevor Whiting said...

How about just a plain wall. The last mural was hideous and looked like some 16 year old Caribbean art student project. I looked at it everyday and saw nothing but a mess of colour etc. If everybody loved it so much why was there little oppostition to its demolition?

Brockley Nick said...

Please can we remain respectful of the fact that people are volunteering to do something positive for the community.

As for why there wasn't more protest about the loss of the last one, its destruction came out of the blue. If you look at the comments on the last post you can see how many people were upset about its loss.

Hugh said...

Nick, do you include among those doing something that benefits the community, hard-working taxpayers who fund the welfare state? No, not sure I do, either.

Moira said...

Thanks Nick – for someone (and not just me) who has just spent about 10 hours a day for the last three days trying to get the programme sorted, filling in licences, notices and other permissions, as well as putting an 8 page funding application together, not to mention that I’m at work today and tomorrow (and paying tax) but trying to get B Max stuff done, and will be spending next weekend and every weekend till the end of May working on the festival, when I read comments such as Catman’s and others I wonder why I bother. I’m exhausted right now which makes it hard to brush off such comments as is normally the case. Spare a thought about the impact your comments might have on all of us who have spent the last three months volunteering to give you, the community of Brockley something to celebrate. Not everything taking place during the festival will be to your taste, but hopefully there will be something you can enjoy at no cost to yourself.

For information.
When the idea of the Heroes mural was agreed, we did not ask any particular group or section of society. We made it as widely known as we could to the community as a whole.
Further - the early murals before Known's 4 panels, did depict the history of Brockley. They became so badly graffitied and damaged that they were an eyesore. The present ones have not.

Pete said...

Just ignore the reactionaries Moira. The majority of people think you have done a great job and that the murals are really very good. I'm also positive that the replacement for the covered mural will be equally good.

The Cat Man said...

Moira - I'm just sniping, I know how hard it is to organise things and people in your position will always have critics.

Interesting to know that they used to depict the history of the area. I personally would not be put off by a few idiots willing to destroy the celebration of our history.

Having become more middle-class, the population around Brockley has changed in the last 5 yrs or so, so it might be worth considering again.

Having said that, I would absolutely love to see murials on famour musicians/singers local to Brockley - Gabrielle? Kate Bush?

Anonymous said...

Isn't the market on the up Hugh?

You really do need to move out you know.

Comment said...

Moira thank you so much for what you have done and continue you to do in Brockley.

I voted for the kindness of strangers. Most people are good.

ross said...

what doesn’t kill you can only make you stronger moira

liz said...

Great idea, thanks to all involved.

osh said...

Here here

Anonymous said...

This is wonderful - making good out of the bad of the destruction of the earlier mural. Kindness of Strangers gets by vote, in honour of the general helpfulness and niceness of the people who run and contribute to this blog. And thanks for your hard work Moira - it makes such a difference to many of us.

Anonymous said...

I would like one of the following:

1) Denzel Washington
2) Lenny Henry
3) Dr Dre

Comment said...

Nelson Mandela (/humanity/wisdom)
Mary Secole (Kindness of strangers)
Samuel Coleridge Taylor (musicianship theme)
Courtney Pine (musicianship theme & local)

Anonymous said...

Strip it back to brickwork, dig a trench along the front and grow some plants up it - it'll look far better than any mural I've ever seen.

Brockley Nick said...

Hugh, yes I would.

And you in particular have contributed a great deal to this online community - your posts on another forum helped to make yesterday a record day for Brockley Central's traffic. Who'd have thought that corporate lawyers would have so much time on their hands!?

Hugh said...

Indeed, Nick. Gone get me sum welfare soon, yessir.

Comment said...

Hugh show some class and stop being silly.

wrong end...etc said...

Sorry if I am being slow but is the new mural to cover all three panels or just the blacked out one?

If it is to be the latter shouldn't the new one relate to the other two in some way?

Brockley Nick said...

It's the latter and I presume it can be made to relate to the others in some way. I guess that's part of the artist's skill.

angelofthewest said...

@Moira I'm so sorry you have to be confronted with totally unnecessary "sniping" and bad manners on this forum. I can understand why that is upsetting. I know I am really impressed, and really grateful for the work you do.

That said, if you commission a mural of Kate Bush, i might have to move....

How about a portrait of Moira?? How's that for a local hero??

tyrwhitt michael said...

Thanks definitely go to Moira and our artist friend but I also have to defend Kate Bush from Angel of the West.

Her poster on my bedroom wall during my teenage years - probably if I recall in a leotard and legwarmers!?! - still creates a warm glow...........in my memory.

So Kate would fit in nicely from my standpoint.

auntykate said...

Who does the wall belong to? Is it Brockley Park Cars? Do they get a vote on the new picture?

Anonymous said...

I'm up for bush!

Headhunter said...

Is that a general statement of preference or a comment regarding the murals?

Anonymous said...

I'm afraid I too have never been a fan of the murals- the 6th form art project comment did ring true to some degree. I love Brockley for its multi-culturalism, and IF murals have to depict people (which I think they certainly don't) they should represent the mix, not just the black community. For Moira to say other stuff would be vandalised again is a rather depressing argument and implies a fair amount about local vandals, no?
I can almost live with the bright colours, but the quality of portrait painting ain't so great...A bright abstract might be groovy. A kinda Pucci-print... And I like the plant suggestion...

Dumbo said...

Does the mural represent the black community? Yes, the people depicted are non white, but Hendrix and Marley were mixed race.

Hendrix's music went beyond race. He inspired and inspires just as many white kids as black.

Anonymous said...

Bit like the a comment I heard from an American comedian.

'Barrack Obama, the first predominantly Hawaiian President'

It's really not a big deal what ethnicity the person is.

Fred said...

Look, I'm sorry, but the Hendrix mural was cool. It added character. It gave the impression of merging cultures, with a little bit of Americana on the way to Brockley Station. All of these ideas sound utterly hollow, cliched and without any of the spark of inspiration that Hendrix brought to passers by. I say, either do Hendrick again, or get another black musician in there. What about Marvin Gaye? Or Sam Cooke?

Anonymous said...

but what have Hendrix and Marley got to do with Brockley? Or Maya Angelou? Kate Bush and Gabrielle and Lillie Langtry at least have a local connection.

Anonymous said...

If the brief was a 'Brockley hero' you may have a point, as it isn't you don't. Easy really.

Anonymous said...

if it's not the point, I'd like a mural of Handel, Puccini and Mozart. Bugger-all to do with Brockley, but have contributed slightly more to the world of music than hendrix and marley...

Anonymous said...

...whereas Kate Bush and Gabriel are truly iconic (!)

max said...

"if it's not the point, I'd like a mural of Handel, Puccini and Mozart. Bugger-all to do with Brockley, but have contributed slightly more to the world of music than hendrix and marley..."

The ultimate evidence that one can go through a full musical education despite being deaf as a brick.

Anonymous said...

Max, no I'm not deaf- I get a very good living from my ears thanks.
Nothing against Jim'n'Bob either. Fabulous chaps (but you can't REALLY compare them to Mozart in the wider scheme of things).
ANYWAY- Your non-musical education evidently didn't include 'how to follow the point of someone's argument'- which obviously wasn't seriously to ask for a Mozart/Puccini mural, but to illustrate 'one man's meat is another man's poison'. Any figures 'iconic' to some will be alien to others.

Dumbo said...

It's a pity there isn't an artist or cultural curator who could give an overview on triptychs and on contemporary urban culture.

max said...

And why "you can't REALLY compare them to Mozart in the wider scheme of things"?
A point that, mind you, rather explodes the claim that you wrote that with ironic intent since you evidently mean it.

Hendrix was not just a sublime deliverer of contemporary sounds and poetry and an iconic figure to some, he influenced many other great artists to the point that his legacy is now the backbone of large parts of rock and soul music, which may not be your cup of tea, but his musical sensitivity survived him, it's found in a lot of music produced everywhere and it's not likely to disappear anytime soon.

He is a mountain in the history of music, just as important as Mozart or Puccini.

The Cat Man said...

no, he was a drug addict - not something i would like to teach to kids as being a hero.

max said...

I thought we were discussing his importance as a musician and this dissertation on why he is so important makes the case perfectly.

As a cultural icon he was also quite important but as I was born in 1969 I can't possibly tell you about it as well as his contemporary could so you'll excuse me if I don't go there.

Anonymous said...

OK.....erm..... a 60's rock star having an issue with drugs, not unusual. Mind you a BLACK rockstar with a drug issue, that's really is beyond the pale. Mind you he died of a drug overdose so you could see it as a warning.

Actually scrub the above, your just being a twit - as usual.

has to be said said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Fed up of moaners. said...

Whilst I wouldn't use that language I do agree with the sentiment.

The Cat Man said...

If we are celebrating 'heros' then it should be something people should aspire to be - i know drug use is tolerated more in some quarters but its not something i would like to see promoted.

Why not a murial of the world aid musicians? or bob geldof for that matter? he has done masses for helping the third world/poverty ad is consistent with the 'kindess to strangers' theme.

Anonymous said...

Not a completely stupid idea from the Cat (strangely)except the Boom Town Rats were not adverse to a little chemical stimulation.

'Feed The World' was a nice sentiment but a god awful tune, and did you know that Status Quo were off their tits on cocaine while performing at Wembley?

Plenty of hero's have flaws - their human after all.

patrick1971 said...

"Plenty of hero's have flaws - their human after all."I can only quote Ralph Wiggum at this point: "Me fail English? That's unpossible!"

Anonymous said...

Homer Simpson, now you're talking. Despite my shoddy English, Cat is still a burk.

drakefell debaser said...

When you hear the name Jimi Hendrix do you recall the man took drugs in the first instance, or do you hear the intro to Purple Haze, Little Wing etc? It would be interesting to run through your cd collection catman and bin any music where the musicians took drugs. You might be left with Cliff Richard, and I can’t be sure he never dabbled either.

Would you be so against Sir Paul McCartney going up as a mural then? (White working class lad that he was) After all the Beatles were so high they let Ringo sing a few tunes.

Brockley Nick said...

Cliff Richard was born in India and would therefore surely be denied a mural by the Cat Man.

The Cat Man said...

If i went through what I know musicians are famour for, the first thing that springs to mind for jimi hendrix is oh yeah, hes the guy who died of a drug overdose. When I hear Paul McCarthy, I think Beatles, Cliff Richard, I think about that movie about a bus (summer holiday?) and a nasty christmas song called 'mistletoe and wine'. And I don't particularly want to walk past a murial of jimi hendrix and thing 'oh yes, drug overdose' on my way to work.

Call me a snob if you wish, but if we promote things like that then it is no surprise that kids around here suffer. But then again, lewisham has pretty much always been a poor borough, it probably says something about peoples mentalities/conventional thoughts.

Monkeyboy said...

Your last comment says more about you then it does about Jimi Hendrix.

...back to decorating, wish I'd paid some other bugger to do this.

Monkeyboy said...

...and 'promoting' drugs? A bit like teaching kids that there are such things as gay men and women, obviously that is 'promoting' homosexuality and will lead to a huge increase gayness. Nonsense of course

Get a grip.

drakefell debaser said...

Catman, you missed the point perhaps. The Beatles also took massive amounts of drugs with one exception, no one died as a direct result. You perhaps gloss over this because they are white from working class back grounds.

And before you go too far on the whole drug thing, Jimi Hendrix drowned in his own vomit after taking an over dose of sleeping pills.

Will you refuse to watch Heath Ledger in a film based on this principle?

max said...

Cat Man's favourite band, the "Now that's what I call music" never took any drugs, never heard a thing about them.
Let's have a mural about them instead.
Culture with ethics!

Brockley Nick said...

"What's your favourite Beatles album?"

"I'd have to say, the Best of the Beatles."

http://bit.ly/3jDnz

drakefell debaser said...

Quality. Partridge deserves his own mural somewhere.

M said...

"Come back on ELO, and play some more!"

The Cat Man said...

Drake, thats a pretty cheap comment and has nothing to do with race (although I do feel the murials should represent the diversity of the area, but thats a seperate topic). I think I made my thoughts on the topic pretty clear - Jimi Hendrix is more famous for a drug overdose then for his music. You could argue that the Beatles are more famous for John Lennons death too but then their music stands on its own and certainly more liked than Jimi Hendrix's music - How many songs is he famous for compared to the beatles?

Headhunter said...

Murals NOT murials! Arrgh!

Jimi Hendrix has loads of famous songs out! Hey Jude, Crosstown Traffic, Foxy Lady, Voodoo Chile... There are loads more. In fact come to think of it, I think I prefer his music to The Beatles. His music is certainly better known than the way in which he died!

The Cat Man said...

Monkeyboy - Being gay is at least partly genetic and not a choice, its pretty different to someone choosing to take a drug overdose!

max said...

There still are plenty of gay people that choose of not making fools of themselves by displaying abysmal musical ignorance and being proud of that.
If you really think that Jimi Hendrix is best know for dying of something he didn't (despite being told) rather than his music then you're terminally ignorant.

Headhunter said...

The whole nature or nurture thing is still up for grabs surely? No one has proved whether being gay is genetic or whether it's caused by the way you were raised (strong mother figure, absent father etc etc...). Or perhaps I'm wrong...

Anonymous said...

"The Beatles also took massive amounts of drugs with one exception"



what was that exception DD?

max said...

And what about the graphic style of the mural?
I'd say that Jimi Hendrix' depiction was quite a wink to Andy Warhol's style, another man that Catman may know mainly for his cocaine habit.
Shouldn't the next one be in the style of Beatrix Potter instead?

The Cat Man said...

HH, its not conclusive but many believe it is at least partly genetic - with the degree of 'campness' to do with lifestyle choices/upbringing.

heres a good recent article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7456588.stm

Social scientists have also found that on average, gay people are wealthy then straight people and on average, more educated.

Brockley Nick said...

There's nothing wrong with Beatrix Potter.

Monkeyboy said...

"Hendrix is more famous for a drug overdose then for his music"

Ever heard of the phrase 'when you're in a hole, stop digging'?

anyway all this talk of Hendrix makes want a hit on a crack pipe, it's SO moreish!

Anonymous said...

On AVERAGE more intelligent? well I guess there's always one runt who brings the score down.

max said...

I agree, there's nothing wrong with Beatrix Potter, and claims that she first met Peter Rabbit after experimenting with magic mushrooms are completely without foundation.

Monkeyboy said...

Have we not been ignoring the obvious candidate? Joanna Lumley! Oh so English, classy, smart, principled and beautiful.


...hang on, scratch that. She's encouraging immigration.

Apprentice old fogey said...

The fragrant Joanna with a honour guard of a Gurkha each side.....

Sounds like a winner to me.

The Cat Man said...

Absolutely! Joanna Lumley, shes amazing, never has been associated with drugs or foreigners, was never born in pakistan and completely and utterly working class.

Smashing!

Dumbo said...

Mozart was a rock star of his day and Jimi Hendrix carried on in that fine tradition.

English Heritage have seen fit to honour him,

English HeritageThis is one of my Hendrix favourites
FireThe man's playing influences diverse bands from rock The Red Hot Chilli Peppers to indie favourites The Stone Roses. In the track above if you listen to the drumming you can hear the nascent sounds that would go on to create drum and bass aka Jungle.

I haven't even mentioned the Jazz dimenison to his music google Third stone from the sun...mesmerising tune. He was a maestro.

Incidently Jimi's blue plaque is opposite to one dedicated to Handel of Water Music fame. Jimi was a humble guy but I think he would have got a kick out of that.

drakefell debaser said...

Correct catman, you can’t compare the Beatles with Jimi Hendrix in terms of the volume of recordings and album sales. The Beatles were machines in that respect and recorded hundreds of songs. Are the Beatles more famous? Absolutely and partly because they appealed to a wider audience as pop does, and Hendrix did not do pop.

However, Hendrix was famous prior to his death which is probably why he played Woodstock and got into posh venues like the Royal Albert Hall, his debut - Are you Experienced – is on the US National Recording Registry (a list of recordings that are of cultural or historic importance) so trying to make out that he was of no significance and just some hippy with a habit and a Fender smacks of ignorance.

Just to clarify, you are quite happy to listen to say Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds but put on Purple Haze and you see some black fella sticking needles in his arm?

PS, most deaths from overdoses are accidental.

The Cat Man said...

I wonder if Mozart was arrested for stealing cars/transportation devices in a number of instances, yes - dear old jimi was very humble indeed!

The Cat Man said...

Drake, theres a reason why Jimi did not have popular appeal, his music was not mainstream which goes back to the question why, if we are trying to appeal to everyone in brockley, Jimi would be the right type of 'idol' to be on a community mur'i'al?

Anonymous said...

your just talking rubbish now, take some me time. Read a good Jeffrey Archer or perhaps some Dan Brown.

max said...

Just left my daughter to nursery, my wife is out and I'm having a party blasting Jimi Hendrix.
Hey Joe is more pulp than any film of Tarantino and the Cat Man is better than Alan Partridge.
Oh what a perfect day!

fred vest said...

"Social scientists have also found that on average, gay people are wealthy then straight people "

can you hazzard a guess at why this correlation may occur? and then ponder on what the actual causality at play is..

drakefell debaser said...

I don’t care if Hendrix is not on the mural catman, as a fan I think it would be great to see him go back up or another musician take his place but that is up to the artist.

Defining who is appropriate is a bit of a minefield because tastes vary, I would prefer Gabriella over Gabrielle for example even though she ain't local

I do disagree with you making Hendrix out to be just some black fella from the states that was only famous for dying and taking drugs but then at least you managed to do some reading on Jimi at the end, even if you only chose to highlight the negative aspects.

Max, Ice T (another catman favourite no doubt) does a very good cover of Hey Joe. I never knew Ice T could sing till I heard it.

max said...

That's unfair Fred, you'll give him a splitting headache.

Tressilliana said...

'can you hazzard a guess at why this correlation may occur? and then ponder on what the actual causality at play is..'

Write in green ink and use one side of the internet only...

fred vest said...

joined up writing as well please

The Cat Man said...

Ice T? What sort of name is that, pure baloney I tell you!

max said...

Really? How interesting.

Bea said...

The kindness of strangers looks like the clear winner right now.

I wonder how this will be portrayed. Seems like a tough one to get right without being overly sentimental or biblical (Good Samaritan etc)!

Liked the idea of Sir Bob – fits in nicely with the music theme but surely there other examples? Can’t think of too many altruistic musicians right now...

The Cat Man said...

Annie Lennox? Elton John?

Anonymous said...

nope, they took drugs

max said...

Why does it have to be a star?
Just find someone of the right ethnic and moral profile and celebrate him/her for her functional role model.
A bit like the Nazi propaganda posters.

Anonymous said...

How about Camilla Batmanghelidjh? Or Shami Chakrabarti?

Anonymous said...

bit dark for the cat dont you think

EARL said...

"Monkeyboy - Being gay is at least partly genetic and not a choice, its pretty different to someone choosing to take a drug overdose!"

At some point you made the choice to come out of the closet and that may be construed (in some circles)as social social suicide, Catman.

And perhaps your figures on homsexuals being more rich and intelligent doesn't take into account all those "dumbos" who have not come out of the closet yet. What if, lord forbid, some are bisexual? Are they then only half intelligent with slight wealth?

And have you ever considered that some people taking overdoses may have done so due to the confusion over their sexuality or morality.

I have a Book I want to send you to save you from this path you take.

There is time. Jesus loves all his children, even those who have strayed.

drakefell debaser said...

Help me Jebus!

Comment said...

Comment said...

You know something I want to see a black artist on there. Specifically a NON WHITE person. You know why? because that mural is a triptych, this means it is a three part picture, and that it has a theme, in content and form and staying true to the form, the artist will use particular palette and as we have seen from the other two pictures the palette, is brown, non white or if you want to be political about it BLACK. Blackety Black OK!

Anonymous said...

Max, you need to get some perspective here...
"his legacy is now the backbone of large parts of rock and soul music, which may not be your cup of tea, but his musical sensitivity survived him, it's found in a lot of music produced everywhere and it's not likely to disappear anytime soon."
Yup...he has had some influence on some people. Every great musician does- I'm afraid I'd put BB King in front of Jimi for guitar legacy- admittedly he has managed to stay around for much longer. Hendrix himself idolised King.
As for Mozart- he influenced hundreds of other composers (many writing variations on his themes) and inspired tens of thousands of musicians. His (more than 600)works are still performed all over the world every single day. And he wrote a canon called 'lick my arse'. I rest my case.
And no, saying I'm right doesn't mean I was serious about the mural.

max said...

I'm sorry, I fail to spot your argument.
Yes B.B King lived longer, and it may well be that Jimi Hendrix was a great admirer of his, and there are surely people trying to emulate B.B. King, but why should this make him so important I don't know.
B.B. King's style is very recognizable but not in the slightest as innovative as Hendix'.
And I love B.B. King, but he's rather conservative, I'd even say that apart from the fact that he plays guitar he's closer to Nat King Cole than to Jimi Hendrix. And he plays 12 bar blues 99% of the time.

Jimi Hendrix was a completely different animal, much wilder in his interpretation and experimentative, he expanded the range of electric guitar to a whole new universe of possibilities.
Hendix' legacy is just enormous, it goes from John Scofield in Jazz to people like Aerosmith in Rock passing through Prince. Quite a range.

Anyway, I never said a word against Mozart, I only reacted to an attempt to claim that only classical musicians are those that are really worth celebrating.
And if you let them get away with demeaning Hendix then we're back to the 50's.

Comment said...

A suitably apt piece in Times today about Bob Marley and whiteness

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6322755.ece

Anonymous said...

Thanks mate... just dropped by. Will look for BIKE STN when we get to Seattle. Still in Buenos Airies.
xanax

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