Gordon Brown discovers crime-free utopia in Brockley

Prime Ministers used to disappear to the USA whenever they were in the political doldrums. In a clear sign that the geopolitical balance of power has shifted on its axis, Gordon Brown chose to visit Brockley to begin his political fightback.

We've been dreading the prospect of Brockley hitting the headlines in relation to knife crime. Peckham, New Cross and Lee are just a few of our neighbours that have witnessed horrific deaths recently. It will only take one incident for anonymous posters to creep out of the woodwork and pronounce the Brockley dream dead. Brockley had bad people in it ten years ago, they will say, therefore there must be bad people here now and forever more. The world will never get better, according to some.

So it's with great delight that Brockley's first headline-grabbing foray in to the knife crime debate was a visit by the PM to a "The Reparation Project", an initiative that works with young offenders to encourage them to consider alternatives to stabbing each other.

You can see a short video of the project here.

If you have had any involvement with the project, we'd love to hear from you.

84 comments:

lb said...

There does seem to have been a run of headline-grabbing knife deaths recently, but most crime statistics show that the level of this kind of crime has actually remained fairly constant over the years. The only real concern is that sensationalised press reporting of this kind of thing (or politicians hoping to gain votes by 'addressing' it - the opposition have been particularly guilty of this recently by yakking on about a "broken society") might actually lead to more people carrying knives in a misguided attempt at self-defence. Similarly there's been a lot of space given over to shrill calls for the reintroduction of national service and other spurious 'solutions' - not very helpful.

I'm a bit worried the current knife crime panic is much like the supposed Bridgend suicide cluster of a few months back (where the rate of suicide was actually quite normal, statistically speaking). As you say, there have always been 'bad' people here, there's always been violence, and there's always been crime.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

Yes, I saw the article. And the pictures. The four kids in the Metro shown with the PM were all ethnic. Not exactly representative, but what does that tell you about the disparity between ethnic groups and knife crime?

Its a good development though, and projects like this should be well funded and supported. Brockley is much safer as a result.

Thinking about it, maybe the 'streets of brockely' videos were a offshoot of this project? The theme of it was generally about being a victim of knife crime. Could be related.

monkeyboy said...

...and remember that teenagers are not adults. A tivial but related example, when i was at school a teacher said that our class was 'the worse he'd ever taught' in the misguided belief that it would shame us in to behaving. We were stupid 14 year olds so we lived up to the hype of course and behaved even worse.

There is an element of that going on i think.

Headhunter said...

I must admit, I have wondered how much of the recent stabbing "crime wave" is hype and whether there really is more crime among youngsters than there was previously.

The Evening Standard, Daily Mail et al love a "crime wave" that they can spin out into a series of stories about the end of society and life as we know it.

As lb says, it also gives politicians and Boris something to get their teeth into while things are otherwise pretty quiet...

Tressilliana said...

My understanding is that statistics are showing that the average age of those involved in knife crime is falling, which is worrying. My own son was stopped last year on the edge of Hilly Fields and told to hand over all his stuff or he would be knifed. He had no stuff but fortunately his assailants had no knife. He was 13 at the time and the assailants were about 14. I'm pleased to say that the police were able to trace one of them and he was found guilty (can't remember the exact charge) because of my son's evidence.

I suppose there is a moral panic over knife crime but it's quite hard not to let it get to you when you have teenage children who of necessity go out and about in SE London unaccompanied. You just have to hope for the best.

fabhat said...

Andy - You might need new glasses: two white teens two black teens with Gordon...seems very balanced.

Tressillian James said...

Was on Hilly Fields the other night at about 12.30am(walking dog with partner, not badger spotting) and by the tennis courts there was a group of about 15 guys (probably 14-18 age) gathered under the lamp post. We took a different way. I was kind of ashamed of myself - they could have been a group of friends just hanging out. However the lateness, their age, and recent hysteria has had its effect on me...

Tressillian James said...

...plus my dog is a lover not a fighter

lb said...

"but what does that tell you about the disparity between ethnic groups and knife crime?"

Nothing. Here's a statistic for you: knife crime in Glasgow (which has an 'ethnic minority' population of 5.5 per cent, less that the British average) is far in excess of that in London ('minority' population over 30 per cent). In Scotland as a whole it's over 3 times as high as in England.

Knife (and other) crime has little to do with race, far more to do with deprivation - one thing that's also higher in Scotland - in general.

patrick1971 said...

But what on earth are teenagers doing out of home at half-past midnight? Do their parents not care where they are? When I was young, if I wasn't home by dinner time there was a fuss. This went on until I was at university when the rules were relaxed. Doesn't this happen any more? There is no way my parents would have let me wander around at all hours of the morning.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

IB, as with most things, there are many factors to consider, not just the proportionality of ethnicity and knife crime statistics.

It is reasonable to argue that disproportionally ethnic minorities are in lower social-economic catergories (i.e. poorer members of society) and indeed face alot of depreviation. If they face a higher rate of depreviation then, and we agree on this - that depreviation has a tendancy towards crime, then you would expect there to be a higher crime rate for certain 'poor peoples' crimes (not all crime).

Where I would draw the line is that the key variable in all of this is the cultural aspect. Certain cultures/nation states welcome direct action, take Zimbabwe as an example.

Despite what is going on, approximately 50% of the population actively support the president despite all his wrong doings.

On a personal level, I have had two african lodgers now. The first, from the Republic of Congo, openly admitts his father is a corrupt senior lawyer but is respected in his country as this is 'how things are done there'.

Similary, my present Botswanian Lodger understands why Zimbabwians support Mugabe. Its a very western idealogy to be concerned about Human Rights.

The difference is that our culture and our laws are aimed at preserving Human Rights, unfortunately some cultural minorites do not respect this.

This is where people get confused. People can still be in a ethnic minority but have similar cultural values to a different minority or the majority in the UK.

This is the difference between a racist (BNP) and me. I don't care what colour a persons skin is.

Monkeyboy said...

Football hooligans are predominantly white and are more than happy to cause mayhem. White Christian terrorists killed 3000 people over 30 years. It's a bit more complex than skin colour, but just to make clear you do not judge based on that eh andy?

The Brockley Telegraph said...

No I don't Monkeyboy, you're right.

And you're right again. Equally some culturial traits in British history have been far from reputable.

My point has always been that people should not be judged on the colour of their skin, but on the values a person holds and the way they act towards others.

By and large, Britain has 3 different historical set of political values - Conservative, Socialist and Liberal. When I talk about celebrating British history, I talk about celebrating the liberal values that I - as a gay man - enjoy.

That celebration obviously includes the wars thought for liberty against hitler etc..

I dont - for instance - advocate football hooliganism as that is illiberal.

fabhat said...

The group teen thing is odd. I used to go out til 2.30am at night, dancing at the venue with my mates, and then all of us (probably 10 or more mixed group) would (probably) loudly make our way back to my parents house and spend the night on the living room floor.
I definitely had very liberal parents, but also I had to be back when I said I would be. I learned to be reliable, and also had a good weather eye for trouble. I think my parents also thought that there was safety in numbers - I was never walking home alone. But it's only as i get older that i wonder what a rowdy group of teens stomping along the street late at night seemed like to everyone else. I know we meant no harm...but we probably looked threatening.

Monkeyboy. said...

Do you know I was going to respond but I can't be arsed.

By the way at some point this argument will get abusive, you'll throw a strop, go silent for a bit and mention your cute cats in a vain attempt to appear cuddly.

Cat's are NOT a subsitute for a personality.

Monkeyboy. said...

Do you know I was going to respond but I can't be arsed.

By the way at some point this argument will get abusive, you'll throw a strop, go silent for a bit and mention your cute cats in a vain attempt to appear cuddly.

Cat's are NOT a subsitute for a personality.

lb said...

"Where I would draw the line is that the key variable in all of this is the cultural aspect. Certain cultures/nation states welcome direct action, take Zimbabwe as an example"

The situation in Zimbabwe has practically nothing to do with knife crime in the UK. You've got onto a completely different subject here - I'd reiterate that your original comment, which I'd remind you was about knife crime, not 'respect for human rights', is disproved by the Scotland / England figures: ethnicity is only a factor insofar that it may be correlated with economic and social factors. It's got sweet fanny adams to do with whether people in Zimbabwe, or other countries, respect the 'law'.

If you're going to bother to comment, at least try and display some working logic.

brockley mutha said...

@ Monkeyboy - ditto.

Broc1 said...

The article was reported in the press seem pretty negative for this area if you ask me. It was presented as 'Gordon down in deepest south London' in the middle of the terror zone visiting a project to clean up the area. I think it was a bad thing for Brockley to be associated with this. I know its a good initiative but i would rather it wasnt on my dorrstep. I was asked in jest by someone in work today whether i consider myself to live in the 'Projects'...by living in Brockley.

Do dah said...

If we agree that media affects reality. Might it be possible that if we manufacture our own media we create our own reality.

In simple terms Brockley needs to create it's own headlines.

I don't wish to tempt faith but I find Brockley rather utopian in many respects. Maybe a splash should be made about those aspects.

Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

Things in Zimbabwe and anywhere else for that matter are completely related to developments in the UK. Not sure what kind of 'isolated' world you live in but its true i'm afraid.

Monkeybaby - my cats ARE cute, you can have a kitten if you like, as long as you don't make it into a cat burger :o)

The Brockley Telegraph said...

Do dah, join my campaign for proper 'paved' footpaths and better auditing of contracted out servies!

I'm fed up with contractors replacing paving slabs with bits of iffy tarmac - all becuase they make more money.

Do dah said...

Andy, I would be delighted to assist in getting practical things done for the area. Where does one sign up?

lb said...

"Things in Zimbabwe and anywhere else for that matter are completely related to developments in the UK"

They have nothing to do with knife crime in the UK, which is what we're talking about. It's certainly what I was talking about.

You seem to be constantly attempting to draw our attentions to some 'elephant in the room' of which no-one is taking notice. Unfortunately, the only thing of which no-one is taking notice is your opinion, as it appears to be baseless. Come on then, prove it: what's Zimbabwe got to do with knife crime? Back it up with some real figures, not with anecdotes about Botswanan lodgers, please.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

Not here thankyou, go to my blog if you want to discuss economics.

Anonymous said...

Aww....cute 'ikkle cats. Shame about the owner

b. said...

can anyone say 'media hype'? oh wait, it seems a few can. now, can anyone understand 'media hype' - perhaps not.

Anonymous said...

Apparently the brick layers at the Tea Factory were black, no sorry I meant they were from a different cultural background

Anonymous said...

It'd be a brave politician indeed who in response to being presented with a parent grieving over the loss of their child cut down before their prime because of knife crime, cited crime statistics and told them that figures for fatal the stabbing of teenagers are stable.


Bad things happen, it doesn't mean we* give up and say it's not worth trying to minimise the incidence of bad things. The whole point of civilisation is that we improve and try and iron out those animalistic tendencies isn't it.

*and by "we" I mean all of us, the citizens and the government.

lb said...

There's a difference between trying to improve things and creating a panic by stating (for short-term gain in votes, or in readership) that society is "broken", or to imply that the situation is deteriorating catastrophically.

Violent crime peaked in 1995. I think it's admirable that people are looking at ways of further reducing it, but I don't think we should ignore the fact that things have in some respects improved in recent times.

Anonymous said...

What Eff is happening about this westside cafe then??

drakefell debaser said...

Andy, i have to take issue with your comments. To say that 50% of Zimbabweans willingly support Mugabe is utter nonsense and you would be best off getting all the facts before sprouting off. I can't for the life of me see how you see fit to draw comparisons to knife crime, culture and what is going on there? I grew up there and watched it fall to bits before leaving 8 years ago. Yes, Mugabe has his supporters but they only support him because they either have something to hide i.e. the members of his Joint operational Command - the head of the police, army etc - all are up to their shoulders in the blood of their fellow Zimbabweans, google Gukurahundi to understand where this blood first came from then google Murambatsvina to learn about the second display of what absolute power can do. The next group of supporters are the so called war veterans, a youth militia that is paid by Mugabe to run around the country and beat or kill those that do not support him, they are the ones that have evicted the farmers by force and also have much blood on their hands. The army and police have no choice but i know that deep down some of them despise what they have to do because they also have families. The others are those that feel they have no choice and they are peasants that rely on food aid from Mugabe - no vote, no food. With inflation now incalculable and food and basic neccessitioes rare they have no choice, so they vote Zanu PF to feed their families and live in peace without war veterans dragging them from their beds in the middle of the night, forcing them to rinse their mouths with Paraquat - an EU banned industrial herbicide that effectively melts the cheeks and lips and getting beaten to an inch of their lives. To say Zimbabweans do not appreciate the concept of human rights is absurd, to state that Zimbabweans welcome this 'direct action' is sick.

The first election showed that the MDC won but it took almost a month for the results to come out and when they did, the margin between the parties was small so there was no clear majority. It was rigged then as it has been done on each occasion since as long as i can remember. Mugabe probably got no more than 10% of the vote on that first run because Zimbabweans voted with their empty stomachs and they want him gone and for the first time in 28 years they actually had an opposition party willing to take Mugabe on - (previous opposition was systematically wiped out with the leaders often dying in car accidents because the brakes failed). Once the run off had a date, Mugabe and his militia went ape and ensured that the MDC had no platform to campaign and it's supporters faced constant harassment, torture and death.

Anonymous said...

...and can we just head off Andy's response.

That kind of behaviour is not unique to Africa nor is part of 'their cilture' plenty of white europeans have done that kind of thing to their fellow man. Go play with your cats.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

In the first presidential run-off - circa 50% of the people supported each candidate. Even if a proportion of these people are voting involuntary, say 20% of those who voted for him them then it would mean he still enjoys 40% popular support - quite substantial considering.

Dont forget that international observers did not come down strongly at this stage, it was only the second election that was condemned strongly by the international community.

The Africian Union, by and large, disagree with the international community and support the president. lets not talk about the recent UN resolutions shall we?

I appreciate your own perspective on this, but the wider lack of comdenation kind of speaks for itself. Mugabe is also racist, The support he gets is racially determined too (the 'whites' being the enemy). Lets not forget the white europeans/british are a minority there.

drakefell debaser said...

I take it you are a qualified accountant then? 50 take away 20 = 30 not 40. Regardless of what the state controlled media in Zimbabwe reported as to what percentage mugabe got, it was a sack of lies. Why did it take so long for the results to come out in the first place if it was a 50 50 split in reality? It was not so clear cut, mugabe got bugger all votes which caused him and the members of his operational command a real cause for concern for the very first time that they had to come up with a plan B - simply standing down was not an option as they all have much to hide and run from hence the speeches that the country would not be lost by the stroke of a pen. The plan B was rigging the vote to show that he narrowly missed a majority so as to enforce a run off. As for international monitors, there was no such thing and there has been no real international monitoring for a long time, lets not forget the majority of news channels etc are banned from entering the country. The African Union largely supports mugabe because African leaders have a long history of taking advantage of its own people, they choose not to call the kettle black when they are already soiled pots. Another more complex issue is the in bedded culture of respecting ones elders, mugabe is the elder hence he commands respect and this is unconditional with some. I don't believe condemnation works with mugabe anyway as he seems to thrive on it so i dont care who has or has not. Of course mugabe s a racist, he is also a homophobic sadistic despot.


I suggest you take a holiday there and see for your self if this majority you speak of exists and how happy the average black Zimbabwean - the people who voted him in for a better future 28 years ago, is scrounging for food because the pay packet he or she picked up at the end of last month (assuming they have a job) has devalued so quickly that he/ she is unable to buy a box of matches to light a fire let alone buy something to eat. Having African lodgers does not give you a clear insight into the affairs of a particular country especially when the lodgers you have do not come from the country you claim to know so much about. Stick to campaigning for better pavements it is far less offensive.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

I know people from Zimbabwe as well. My partner also works for an Embassy so if nothing else, i have somewhat of an opinion on ineternational issues too.

But leaving that aside, as you pointed out Mugabe has been in power for many many years. Yes, his support is lower now than what it used to be, but he still enjoys a significant minority of support.

The issue with regard to human rights and crime (which I was orginally focusing on) does not just draw a parellel with the recent events. I accept it is harder to draw a parellel with recent events but it does still exist. The stronger parellel is with the historical past.

Mugabes policies have been going on for many many years and the resulting abuse of human rights and crime is due to his and his followers actions.

A significant proportion of the population were not complaining when they were given white farms and land, despite displacing the minority whites.

The fact they supported him and his policies during this time suggest an acceptance of discrimination and acceptance of crime (against property and person). Mugabe could not of done this without some sort of popular support or tolerance by its people.

Why else do you think the western goverments are so powerless to act? Quite simply, they cannot. Not without the support by the people of zimababwe or its neighbours. As I pointed out, apart from one african country, none of them will critise his stance.

Anonymous said...

so breathtakingly stupid I hardly know where to begin! Yes Mugabee was a liberation hero, had huge support but turned bad. Hardly unusual, are you saying that they deserve all they get? Hitler was a hero to his people, not sure he was that popular toward the end. General Pinochet, was a hero - turned bad. The west have and do support despots (black, white and shades in between)all over the world - it's politics in all it's grubby glory.

You actually disgust me - still you have cats so clearly you're a nice chap.

drakefell debaser said...

Andy,I reiterate my advice for you to take a trip there. On your point about Zimbabweans gladly accepting farms - the issue of land re distribution is not a new concept and was a key issue at the Lancaster House agreement in 1979. The agreement saw Britain pledge around £600 million so that farmers could be bought out i.e. willing seller, willing buyer for resettlement. Why does mugabe despise the British government then? Simply because he started using the cash for himself so in 1985 when he tried to start the ball rolling, the Zimbabwean government could not fulfill the wiling seller willing buyer clause in the original agreement because they were skint and the UK was not going to give any more cash for more Savile Row suits. Once this clause ran its 10 year term, a bad concession in retrospect, the clause was removed and the government did not have to pay for the farms. Sorry, they promised 'fair compensation'. Not much so called re distribution happened because even fair compensation was more then they could afford but, due to the defeat mugabe experienced for a referendum to change the constitution in 2000 and remove the 'fair compensation' clause he decided to ignore the people and go ahead and take the farms anyway with the farmer given the option of life or death in most cases. It was at this point that mugabe set the wheels in motion for where the country stands today. Zimbabwe was known as the bread basket of Africa for a good reason so destroying such a key industry was a desperate move.

The white owned farms were taken with the promise to be given to the ordinary black people so there was support despite it being a rather contentious way of going about things however, take a tour around these farms today and they are used by mugabes inner circle members as holiday homes. Cabinet ministers, army chiefs and influential black business men now enjoy a weekend shooting any wild life they find on their new 10 000 hectare farm, its as though Zanu PF have followed the script for Orwell's Animal Farm. If, as you suggest, they were given to the people they were promised do you honestly think Zimbabweans would be starving? No, because they would be all growing their own food either on a subsistence basis or on a commercial basis and would have no issue as the dream put before them to want independence in the first place would have been realised. They did not get the land they were promised so what has happened is that the white farmer has been kicked off and the several hundred employees of the farm are now unemployed. Not to mention the fact that quite a few the farms provided schools and medical facilities to the workers and the community as a whole. With this all gone, these people now rely on mugabe for food aid and everything else so bob has them under complete control. Because no one is growing anything no one can eat, because mugabe enforces his official exchange rate which is way off the mark of the true value, ironically the black market rate, businesses cannot run - mining has been a large victim because the cost of getting ore out of the ground is far higher than what they are told to sell the ore for. And, because Zimbabwe is not hot on the tourist map anymore the tourism industry has gone. Basic economics thus proving mugabe could not run a bath.

Why are western governments reluctant to get involved? It is a delicate issue, don't forget the western world collonised Africa and even when Idi Amin was doing his bit to promote tribal relations many people died whilst the outside world watched. China and Russia have now blocked any hope of a UN resolution so the future is uncertain. It can't be said that communists do not stick together. There is however support to get rid of mugabe by Zimbabweans, the biggest obstacle is empowering them to speak up and stand against him because so far every time they have tried, mugabe has knocked them down with what ever means necessary. As a whole, Zimbabweans are not violent so force is unlikely but they are incredibly resilient which mugabe uses to his advantage. As for the other so called leaders of Africa, as i have said most are guilty of their own abuses of power so why would they speak out.

Human rights is not a big thing in Africa because the leaders make it so, I don't think it is that widely adhered to in China either. You say you were focusing on human rights when you used the brutal actions of mugabe in your post but you had the audacity to imply that Zimbabweans or any other African nationality for that matter do not appreciate the concept of human rights and welcomed or accepted the direct action they now face because they chose to stand up to our modern day despot, this is completely untrue and extremely insulting. I doubt the Zimbabweans you do know would appreciate this attitude either.

patrick1971 said...

"I take it you are a qualified accountant then? 50 take away 20 = 30 not 40."

Pedantic point of order: 20% of 50 is 10, so Andy's initial calculation is at least mathematically correct, if not necessarily an accurate representation of the situation.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

I'm not saying that do not have 'any' respect for human rights but that it is a relative situation. The French had a revolution to fight against their government. The British had a civil war. Peoples of both these countries fought to restore a degree of freedom and a parliament for the people, despite mass slaughter by royalist forces.

I simply cannot see that happening in Zimbabwe. I'm not saying that they agree with the present situation per se, but rather that some at least are more accepting of the situation than the French or indeed British a few centuries ago. If they were 'equally' as horrified as the British or French were before them, then why havn't they taken arms against the government forces?

The reason to suggest that they are scared or disempowered simply does not justify no action being taken. It just validates the claim that the people are either 1) not unified to get rid of Mugabe or 2) vaguely tolerant of him.

In either case, it suggests a higher proportion of acceptance than the situation in Britain or France all those years ago. And thats exactly my point.

The crime point is somewhat different, but related.

Yes, it is complicated. Historically speaking, to suggest that simply the Zimbabwes are 100% the victims in this is not necessarily true.

lb said...

Here's an interesting example of different sections of the media interpreting the same story in different ways - in this case, today's announcement about recorded crime figures, which show that crime (including knife crime) is falling.

The Grauniad:"Crime figures down despite alarm over knife attacks"

The Mail:"Shock figures reveal no part of Britain is safe as knife violence spreads EVERYWHERE"

These are the same figures, by the way.

Incidentally, TBT, simply saying that the "crime point is somewhat different, but related" is not an argument. Related how?

lb said...

As for your other point:

"If they were 'equally' as horrified as the British or French were before them, then why havn't they taken arms against the government forces?"

Probably for similar reasons that the overwhelmingly Republican majority in many parts of Spain went along with Franco's clero-fascist dictatorship after the Spanish Civil War (despite beatings, executions, political repression, etc). That was in Europe and within living memoey.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

Yes, possibly true IB. Not sure what your point is apart from saying that similar situations arise outside of Zimbabwe. Well, I would certainly agree with that.

I would love to explain how crime is related to other discussion topics, but it would take equally as long, so I wont :o)

drakefell debaser said...

The Zimbabwean people are divided which is exactly what mugabe wants. You either whole heartedly support him or you don't and then there are those who pretend to in order to avoid hassle. The main reason they have not raised arms against mugabe is because apart from the odd axe, machete etc they have no arms to raise. mugabe is the head of the army and do as he requests. He also has his 5th brigade trained by north korea, the same force that was used in the Gukurahundi massacre, so the people are well aware of what could happen to them should they try and get rid of him by force. The Chinese ship that was loaded with weapons that made world wide news recently, i forget its name, made its delivery to Zimbabwe so the army has enough Ak47 rounds and RPG7 rockets to give any brave thinking Zimbabwean a hiding. If the army rebel from within then that would be a different situation. This is possible because like all other Zimbabweans they earn a wage that devalues by the hour and one can only turn a blind eye to what the militias get up to to their own people for so long. Another interesting development is that the German company that was supplying mugabe with the paper and machines to print money have stopped doing so. As mugabe has simply been printing money 24/7 to pay his militias and other henchmen for many moons there will be a cash shortage so things can only get worse for the certain future. A debate in the House of Lords brought about an estimate of 8 years for every one year since the year 2000 to repair the Zimbabwe economy, that was in the hope and expectation that the writing for his departure was on the wall, now it looks like it could well be to the end of the century. To think the exchange rate was £1 to ZW$1 in 1980 its some legacy comrade bob will leave behind.

lb said...

My point? You said this:

"I'm not saying that they agree with the present situation per se, but rather that some at least are more accepting of the situation than the French or indeed British a few centuries ago. If they were 'equally' as horrified as the British or French were before them, then why havn't they taken arms against the government forces"

The inference you were trying to make, quite clearly, was that the people of Zimbabwe were in some way a special case. Before you try and back out of this one, I'll point out that you said:

"Certain cultures/nation states welcome direct action, take Zimbabwe as an example.

Despite what is going on, approximately 50% of the population actively support the president despite all his wrong doings
"

You were saying this in order to back up your (dubious) thesis that "Its a very western idealogy to be concerned about Human Rights. The difference is that our culture and our laws are aimed at preserving Human Rights, unfortunately some cultural minorites do not respect this"

So, you were saying that the "non-Western" culture of the Zimbabwean population was part of the reason that they "actively" supported Mugabe. Well, as I've said, Europeans are just as capable of falling into line behind violent regimes, for the same kind of reasons that DD has stated. You're wrong.

If you're incapable of following your own arguments, you really ought to think hard about even posting them.

lb said...

By the way, my apologies to everyone else for this increasingly tedious discussion, but there seems to have been such an explosion of bitter, strident humbug across the media recently I can't help wanting to correct it when it appears. As you'll notice, the original point about knife crime is neatly illustrated by the two newspaper articles above. I think I need a strong cup of tea now.

Anonymous said...

Jesus wept.... is there a way we can stop Andy having the vote?

To paraphrase his argument, Africans are more tolerant of violence and all round unpleasantness. Your white European on the other hand would not tolerate it and would rise up against it.

So, reading between the lines. The blacks have got it coming to them, and the current apparent rash of knife crime is clearly related to that in built 'culture'.... ooohhh look at my cats!!

Weird, nasty, ignorant man.

Danja said...

Someone remind me how Stephen Lawrence died?

Anonymous said...

No one was convicted so we don't really know.

Anonymous said...

He's an idiot, I expect he thinks the Stephen Lawrence thing was a case of suicide.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry people you bring it on yourselves. I'm one of the biggest anti-APPP people who posts on here and will not enter into any kind of discourse with him now because he is a vile little twerp.

Others on here such as Headhunter to name but one will slate him one day because of his racist comments, but happily chat the following day about cycling or some other trivial pursuit. Apparently forgetting that this dickhead is just about right of Hitler. Don't give him the time of day!! If he were my neighbour I'd blank him. He seems to thrive on upsetting people and then ignoring the fact that he has by going on about his pathetic cats. If you don't like what he says then ignore him completely, don't engage him in any conversation at all whether it be a debate about race or a debate about the weather.

Monkeyboy said...

Anyway.... my credit card dropped out of my wallet today without me knowing. A sullen 'yoof' tapped me on the shoulder and handed it to me, so 100% proof that everything is just dandy. Mind you don't know whether he ordered £1000 worth of Reebok gear in the intervening 20 seconds so I'll let you know.

Off for a run 'cos I'm a fat little bastard.

Bea said...

Anon @ 17:23 - while I may agree with your sentiment regarding TBT political views calling him a “vile little twerp” and “dickhead” is not only discourteous but goes against the blogging guidelines set out by Nick.

TBT's views are fascist but it is illiberal of you to dictate to us how we should interact with others on this blog.

Anyway, there’s no doubt no better way to keep youngsters indoors than by having regular visits to our neighborhood than by the current PM.

Do dah said...

I have to say I am fed up of all this racial talk, it has zero to do with Brockley and even it has I just don't want to know.

Andy I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't think you were racist I just thought you had trouble adjusting to the times, as lot of people do including some older members of my own family so for that reason I was less inclined to get annoyed at your remarks, but you are a young man.

I don't think you are racist but you are certainly racially prejudice; your analysis of situtations almost always seem to harp on about race and ethnicity in a negative light. From statues in park, to celebrations at the fayre and stereotypes about behaviour it's very bigoted and frankly it's quite ridiculous.

But not only is it ridiculous it is nasty, because it's divisive and it fosters hatred of groups.

You have been requested to stop, but it seems as though its some compunction within you to continue. I don't like reading people verbally abusing you, but your behaviour is contributing greatly to these situations. Maybe you just doing this for controversy. I just don't know what else to say to you...

Headhunter said...

Sorry Anon, I know Andy's views may be a bit grating, misguided or to the "right of Hitler", however it's perfectly possible to be civil with him and simply argue against his views without being abusive.

I'll still happily trade thoughts on something as harmless as cycling with him. Live and let live...

The Brockley Telegraph said...

Do Dah, I think it would be acceptable (although I disagree) to say I was culturally prejudice, but not racially prejudice.

I would equally support Spain for the Spanish, Jamacia for the Jamacians or China for the Chinese for example.

The reason why I am not culturally prejudice either is that I have not advocated 'Britain is best' or any other such nonsense as all culturese have good things and bad things.

To quote the Lib Dems: 'Diversity is a source of strength'. Well, I want to preserve that cultural diviersity.

Last but not least, ignore the anons - theres a reason why they are anon.

The Brockley Telegraph said...

Speaking about cycling, I just got quoted £25 quid from Evans to re-align my gears. I'm almost tempted to learn how to do it myself...!

Monkeyboy said...

I guess Andy will be guerilla gardening on his own this weekend.

drakefell debaser said...

Andy, I think having someone from Botswana and another from the DRC as lodgers should help your 'cultural prejudices' somewhat. You could find out about the prejudice the Kalahari Bushman face and why the wars occured in the Congo over a beer or something. I am surprised you do not fear having these lodgers in your house for fear of their cultural tendency to kill.

Whether you are racist, not racist or what ever i don't really care as this is a platform for debate but i wish you would think about what you say before you pen it down and at least try and back your comments up with a little fact or personal experience.

To everyone else, i am sorry for the diatribe on zimbabwe which for the record has little knife crime.

Anonymous said...

Andy's full of sh t. He lives on his own with two cats who he let lick his balls. He now more has two lodgers from Bostwana than I can suck my own d k. How gullible are you?? Don't you think it's a convenient coincidence that he happens to have black lodgers from Africa?

I post as Anonymous because it's the quickest way of doing it and I see no benefit to me to give myself a false moniker. I live on Revelon Road which is why I am so ashamed to have that knob as my near neighbour.

Bea - I wasn't dictating how you interact with APPP, read it again.

Monkeyboy said...

I quiet like the idea of andy living downstairs with his cat while his black lodger lives in the attic. A bit like Rigsby and his cat Vienna in Rising Damp.

The joke being that Philip was a smart medical student while Rigsby was a ludicrous bigot who thought Africans still ate their enimies - pure class

The Brockley Telegraph said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Brockley Telegraph said...

Drakefell, I will indeed talk to my house mate re. Kalahari Bushman, I have no idea what happened historically in Botswana, but would certainly be interested to understand. It was him who heavily impacted my viws on Zimbabwe btw. His views are even more different to yours.

I gave my other lodger from the DRC notice 6 months ago. I found a syringe on my sofa so naturally I was abit concerned (It was just me and him in the house at the time).

Originally I gave him the benefit of the chance, as he was actually a nice pleasant guy. I suspect the syringe was his friends but none the less it was too much for me or my partner to handle.

Headhunter said...

£25 to re align your gears?! First of all do your gears really need adjusting? Your bike's pretty new from what I understand, unless you've crashed it and damaged the mechanisms. Secondly, that should literally take a minute to do! I'm sure you can get it done more cheaply somewhere else

The Brockley Telegraph said...

Well, I was cycling home back up the killer hill on pepys road and the chain fell off my front cog (it was rubbing against the change gear mechanism). As a result, I was throughly pe'd off that I could not enjoy the satisifaction that I otherwise would of had if I i managed to complete the hill.

The front cog is pretty bad. Each click on the gear lever does not line up with the cog. The back one is fine.

Problem is, I don't have any tools and no-idea how to do it.

Headhunter said...

Sounds a bit strange that that should suddenly happen. Anyway, all you need is a small screwdriver. On the mechs there are 2 little screws that you can fiddle with to adjust the gears, but only turn them a little at a time, they're usually quite sensitive. It may be best to get someone to do it, but you can certainly learn for next time, it's very simple

Anonymous said...

Boys, all this talk about adjusting gears has reminded me I've a leaky tap! HH could you pop over with your screwdriver and give it a fiddle?

The Brockley Telegraph said...

you know, if I had a dirty mind I could make quite a comments about that last sentence! :0)

Anonymous said...

indeed - or about putting out a call for someone to tweak your gears...

South, Safe & Sorted said...

Monkey boy, you are one funny bloke! Telegraph Troll, change your name to Rigsby immediately ha ha ha!

Headhunter said...

My screwdriver is always available for a quick fiddle....

The Brockley Telegraph said...

lol. HH.

You upto much cycling this weekend?

Headhunter said...

Yes, I hope to do the Dulwich Paragon Sunday ride

Hugh said...

Do Paragon allow outsiders to pitch up and join in, or do you need to wear the strip and drink bitter with a bunch of local morris dancers?

Headhunter said...

Well it's true they do like their morris dancers/bitter drinkers, but I think I could get you in, Hugh. See you there?

Danja said...

You do know that with the little chainring you should only be using the bigger rear cogs?

Headhunter said...

Yes Danja. Elementary stuff I'm afraid that.

Wew! Just got backfrom a killer ride with DP. Must have done about 70 miles at breakneck speed. Someone bought this American guy along who was just relentless. Honestly the fastest ride over that sort of distance I have ever done. I'm afraid I was the back marker for most of it and they had to wait for me. I'm just not used to that. The pace on those Sunday rides is so varied... I'm crippled...

The Brockley Telegraph said...

ah bless! I feel for you.. not.

Anonymous said...

...bit upset no one wants to go cycling with you Andy?

Danja said...

Yes Danja. Elementary stuff I'm afraid that.

No need to be afraid. I am aware it is elementary, but thought that the novice having problems with gears jumping might not know that.

Tressillian James said...

HH - a soak in a nice onsen, would do the trick - or at least an up-to-your-neck ofuro.

tressillian james said...

...and 70 miles - in a day...when you said you were a bike rider, I didn't think you were trying for stages of the Tour de France

Headhunter said...

Danja - Oh I see. I don't think that using large chainring/large gear would affect the meshing of the gears too much, most likely it would stretch the chain and the springs in the mechs

TJ - Yeah an onsen would've been nice, none in Brockley though - shame! 70 miles in a day? That would've been luxury. This was 70 miles in a bit under 4 hours pretty much non stop

The Brockley Telegraph said...

"I don't think that using large chainring/large gear would affect the meshing of the gears too much, most likely it would stretch the chain and the springs in the mechs"

Danja = Novice

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