Wednesday deadline for White Hart Stripclub application

As reported in the South London Press the landlord of the White Hart "Hotel" in New Cross has lodged an application with the Council in the hope that he will be allowed to introduce strippers to turn around the pub's ailing fortunes.

The matter will go before Lewisham Council's Licensing Committee on August 14th and the deadline to register your views with Lewisham Licensing (licensing@lewisham.gov.uk) is tomorrow.

60 comments:

Anonymous said...

I am not bothered by a stripclub, just concerned about the crime and increase in drunk men it could bring to the area. If the pub has tried every other method of making money (redecorate, remarket, etc.) and this is the only option left then so be it. As long as they take into account the undesirables that are likely to be hanging around there as a result and increase security in the area.

Headhunter said...

Well it's not as if the area is particularly salubrious anyway, but I'm sure a strip club won't help much, the pub'll probably have to board up its windows which will make it look ver seedy and probably not add much to the area

Anonymous said...

I'm all for it. Perhaps the residents of Brockley could embrace this, perhaps by putting on a show themselves on an open night, making artistic use of a fairtrade organic carrot?

Anonymous said...

The landlord is speaking absolute rot when he says he's tried everything to make the pub work - all other pubs in England are facing the same pressures, but theyve not turned to lapdancing. the place is a dive, it stinks of vomit, the toilets are filthy and the landlord is unwelcoming & terrifying. There are people living in the area who'd love a decent pub - all he needs to do is fumigate, get some leather sofas and candles and the place would be great.

drakefell debaser said...

I have never been into this establishment, nor heard of it before it cropped up here. It looks huge going by whats on the net and apparently it was a hotel as well? Going by the reviews on the net and what people have said on here i doubt i have missed much. Prehaps he should sell it to a developer and retire to Majorca. If i were to head down that end of New X I would only bother with the Montague Arms which is superb

Anonymous said...

If the pub has tried every other method of making money (redecorate, remarket, etc.)

Ha ha ha. You've never been in, have you?

Well it's not as if the area is particularly salubrious anyway

It is having a lot of money poured into it, and trying to drag itself up a bit with a load of public money. This would be a disaster.

Headhunter said...

I'm inclined to agree with anon. I can't believe that a strip club is really going to be good for a residential high street. I've never been in the pub, but it doesn't sound like anyone has actually made much of an effort with it.

Danja said...

Oh, that was me.

It's strangely small inside, DD.

It's up for sale, and the landlord reputedly wants a mill for it, which is quite a price for such a dive. This might be a way of getting more money from a purchaser at the sleazy end of the market, I guess.

Anonymous said...

Are they male or female strippers?

Anonymous said...

I'm more of a pole dancing club man myself.

drakefell debaser said...

err.. its New Cross mate not Soho and I don't think the gay mecca has reached that far, check with the BT. I think the punters will have to have their beer goggles on before they enter as well else they may feel ripped off with the £1 in the jar if they were sober.

Anonymous said...

"err.. its New Cross mate not Soho and I don't think the gay mecca has reached that far"

so whats that blacked out building with a tiny little rainbow flag above the doorway doing on new cross highstreet?

Anonymous said...

I think if you went in there you'd find Andy with a gobstopper in his mouth

David said...

There's a bit of local opposition forming - see transpontine for a comment or two;

http://transpont.blogspot.com/2008/07/white-hart-in-new-cross-lap-dancing.html

and then if you're really keen some reasoning as to why this might be a bad thing (fortunately pretty much focussing on things other than the "moral" aspect which, for me, is a little too difficult to base any sort of objection on) at http://www.thehill.org.uk/pdfs/whitehart.pdf

David

drakefell debaser said...

Anon, 16:55. I haven't seen the this place with the rainbow above the door so I wouldn't know. Do you?

Anonymous said...

I've never been to a Pole dancing club, but I'm sure it's a nice way of welcoming our eastern european friends into our community.

Vive la Concorde!

drakefell debaser said...

David, Dr Pascoe's research highlights a whole can of worms I hadn't thought about i.e. increase in rape etc. Lets hope the sensible people at the town hall reject it and maybe a landlord with a better vision will buy it, although if its on sale for a million as Danja says then there is little hope particulalry in the current credit crunched environment.

Headhunter said...

It would be shame to lose yet another London pub, but as outlined by Transpontine, if the White Hart becomes a lap dancing club it is essentially no longer a pub and public space anyway, so it may as well be converted into flats as far as I'm concerned

Brockley Nick said...

I've not been in the pub, but I'm prepared to believe it's as grotty as people say.

I wouldn't support allowing strippers, because it sounds as though the landlord has made little effort to turn it in to a legitimate drinking hole and there are plenty of successful pubs in the area which prove that it can be done, as Jon has already pointed out. Similarly, I would be worried that it would set some sort of precedent for the area.

However, I think the suggestion that it will bring a crime wave to New Cross Gate is OTT. These kinds of pubs are not uncommon - even Greenwich had one up until a few years ago and it made little difference to the street it was on. A pub which caters for people who want to watch strippers, rather than catering to violent alcholics (I am aware that the two categories are not mutually exclusive) might even reduce crime. My limited experience of these kinds of places is the blokes in them are pretty sad, but they drink a lot more slowly, saving their pound coins to put in a pint glass. I haven't seen the study suggesting a possible increase in incidence of rape, so I will reserve judgement on that one. As for legitimising the objectification of women - these kinds of pubs are so sleazy and tragic that they don't normalise anything. Page 3 and dance music videos seem to do far more damage in that respect.

@HH - if you turn it in to flats, there is no way back. If you allow strippers, there's always a chance that a new landlord can take a fresh approach.

That said, I hope it he doesn't get a license.

Tamsin said...

Lots of pubs in the area have closed. Nothing remains of the Railway by Nunhead except its sign - demolished and flats built; the Duke of Albany (aka The Winchester in Shaun and the Dead) has closed; the Hatcham Liberal Club has also been up for sale for a similar sum for about two years.

It would be a pity to lose the building which has defined that junction for about 150 years - and it is shortly going to have two way traffic on either side of it after road improvements - hardly ideal for residential development.

Headhunter said...

What's this about 2 way traffic? You mean along Queens Rd? That'll make it a bugger to cross the road to get up Pepys Rd on the ride home...

Anonymous said...

Could be a place to find some hot totty?

Anonymous said...

I wonder will there be a scabby hag circling the pub shaking her money jar for 50p from each punter...any volunteers?

Transpontine said...

I've already had my say on this on
my own blog
so I won't labour the point. I tend to agree with Nick that the crime angle can be over-stated, but as with the recent betting shop argument, current Licensing law doesn't really allow for communities to decide what kind of 'facilities' they want in the area. I wouldn't really want my daughter wandering past in the day though when lechy blokes are coming in and out (and as the pub is next to the only pedestrian crossing at this end of the street, many young women won't have any choice but to pass it going to and from school - they are looking to open at 2 pm every day). For me, this is a lost opportunity, the pub is in a central position and has plenty of space including a dance floor at the back, with a bit of effort and imagination (and possibly a bit of money) it could be a great place. Instead they want to close the doors to everyone but wankers. No way has the current landlord invested £300k+ as stated in South London Press - he might have spent that much to buy it, but nothing has been spent on doing it up.

david said...

I actually agree with transpontine and Nick tha the crime angle might be overstated in the objection material (then again though the fact that it migth be overplayed and talked up doesn't mean that it doesn't exist to some degree). But, given licencing laws don't allow for objections on other grounds and these grounds exist or a case fro them existing can be made then what's to be done if you'd prefer to see teh building used for something else/better (assuming you don't have a spare million to play with that is - hmmm, maybe you call upon Andy .....)

Anonymous said...

Maybe the landlord should provide a video of the sort entertainment he is proposing?

Juno said...

There could well be hot totty. But you would be stupid to think they would be interested in the punters. Particularly the sort that would go into that kind of strip club, it is unlikely to be a classy place.

Anonymous said...

It will be very interesting to see how the council handle this application and what powers, if any, are available to them if they do decide to object. Attending the meeting is probably the best way for residents to air their feelings. The date of the meeting and their report into the issue will be published on Lewisham council's website ahead of the meeting. L

Tamsin said...

@headhunter. Total bugger to cross the roads at all. Improvements for the NDC area (which admittedly will make life much more bearable for those in the Kender Triangle) will be cutting off south-side pedestrians from Pepys Road from the Bank, Post Office and north-side shops and bus stop. Now you can cross in two and a half hits at the junction itself. In the future coming down Pepys you will need to either walk down New Cross Road to beyond the bus stops or go up Queen's Road, cross, walk around the detritus outside the new strip joint and then cross the Old Kent Road - both these being two way traffic. If anyone gets killed jaywalking the planners have effectively said that that will be their own fault.

Anonymous said...

not in my back yard

Headhunter said...

Tamsin - I don't really get what they are doing there. Are they completely getting rid of the island with the derelict public toilets in front of the strip joint? Is there any link to plans for what they want to do?

patrick1971 said...

headhunter, I've not seen the plans myself, but my understanding was that that island with the unused toilets is, bizarrely, listed; the council tried to get rid of it in an earlier set of road improvements but was stopped. I've no idea why they don't open the toilets and staff them rather than just letting them rot.

Danja said...

You can see what they are going to do on page 17 of this http://tinyurl.com/6mhkur

The island is going, and the toilets will be filled in. The only listed bit is the big iron 'vent pipe' thing, which it sounds like they might restore and move onto the new 'promontory' in front of the Shite Hart.

Danja said...

Oops, sorry - unfortunate, if eerily accurate, typo.

Headhunter said...

Thanks for that link Danja. that will screw up my ride from the bottom of Pepys then up New Cross Rd to OKR. I'll have to swing round the end of the new island in front of the strip joint to go up NCR. Oh well all in the name of progress I suppose.

Shame to lose the old toilets, these old Victorian conveniences have been shut down all over London. I saw a TV programme a while back which showed some locals use bolt cutters to get into one that had been shut for decades and inside all the old Victorian marble, carved wood and fixtures were still in place. I wonder what these ones are like?

Amanda said...

This is ludicrous, how can you have stripclub near to a school? If this gets through, then questions need to be asked about the planning rules.

fabhat said...

Very similar victorian loos to those are being offered for rent as commercial premises, on Tower Bridge Rd - meanwhile up the road (off southwark bridge they just filled the whole lot up with cement. Sounds like they plan to do the same in new Cross Gate. and I did go into them as a kid, when they were still open, and they are lovely. elegant tiles, mahogany seats, marble washstands and frosted glass. If they going to concrete them up, they should at least allow a rescue of empherema first...

Danja said...

This is the other half of what they are proposing to do, which is why the NDC wanted the gyratory removed (TfL is trying to get rid of them generally, anyway):
http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/0A10E70D-173B-4517-9A02-19A5BBB42AB3/0/KenderTriangleFlyer.pdf

Pete said...

If you're facing north up the old kent road is the White Hart on the left or right of the road? The pub on the right usually looks quite busy with salt of the earth types.

Danja said...

The White Hart is on the corner with Queen's Road, on the west side of the road.

The pub further north on the east side is the Five Bells (which is a much better pub).

Headhunter said...

Forgot to say, having filed an objection to this, I received a pack of all the complaints made as well as a copy of a long petition. It must cost the council thousands to send this info to everyone involved! Bit of a waste of resources, however I'm sure it's something they are obliged to do by central govt. Nice to see that they have mostly used both sides of recycled paper to print it all on though. One other thing, some people have seriously written objections which are longer than the honours project/thesis I wrote for my degree! One guy who works at Clifford Chance in particular has gone into lengthy legal jargon with supporting precedents in law to support his objections!

david said...

@HH - That one guy being me can't claim any credit (if that's what you'd call it). I shamelessly researched (plagarised) the text for my objection from the stuff prepared by the Telegraph Hill councillors.

Headhunter said...

Aha! How funny that you look at this blog too. I just tried to find your objection again, but I can't, just toooo much paper to sift through. I can't find my measly little email at all, but I suppose it must be in there somewhere

Anonymous said...

You seem to object to quite a lot Headhunter. You're not the Mary Whitehouse reincarnate, are you?

Headhunter said...

"Always object", that's my motto...

Danja said...

They turned it down.

Headhunter said...

Good

Headhunter said...

Good

Anonymous said...

Good, not in my back yard. Now what else can I complain about?

drakefell debaser said...

Common sense prevails

drakefell debaser said...

Common sense prevails

Headhunter said...

Exactly anon 15:02. "Always object". And now for my next complaint, has anyone else noticed the infrequency of recycling bin collections? Certainly along Manor Ave they only collect every couple of weeks and we only have 1 green bin (about the same size as is provided for a single household) between 4 flats which is usually filled to bursting. However we have 3 large grey rubbish bins and we barely fill 1.

Anyone know if the council would swap and grey for a green?

patrick1971 said...

You'll be lucky, headhunter. It was on BBC London News recently that Lewisham doesn't have enough bins as there was a fire at the factory that supplies them. No more bins available of any type for some months, apparently.

And, to not-in-my-back-yard anonymous, I personally don't think strippers should be in anyone's back yard.

Danja said...

********g magistrate allowed the appeal - report on the TH forum.

Anonymous said...

link?

Danja said...

http://thehill.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=594

Anonymous said...

Shock as non-mungbean opinion is considered by judge.

Danja said...

Yeah, what a victory for the anonymous working classes!

Anonymous said...

I'll find an appropriate way to, ahem, "celebrate"

drakefell debaser said...

Unreal. If the landlord thinks 70 'high paying clients' throwing a few quid in a pint jar will save his business then his lack of success so far not a mystery.

He might end up siting on his own with his quids in as the recession digs harder

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