Ladywell Christmas Market, December 13th

On Saturday, between 11am and 5pm, Ladywell will host its first Christmas Market, next to the station.

The rival / complementary attraction to Brockley's Christmas Market on the same day promises farmers' market stalls plus locals arts and crafts, a raffle, carols as well as the obligatory "and more!"

From 4pm-6pm there will be free mulled wine, while the Ladywell Tavern will host a benefit gig by local bands from 8.30pm.

Locallife Sian, one of the organisers, explains:

"It's Ladywell's first attempt at a big event so we are hoping for lots of support. Over 250 leaflets enclosing a map of the local shops have been delivered but we're hoping to spread the message as widely as possible.

"Anyone coming will be rewarded with the smell of hot roast hog, mulled wine and mince pies, plus the Mayor will light the Christmas tree lights at 3pm."

169 comments:

Anonymous said...

Same day as Brockers - smart.

nobbly brick said...

There's ample time to take in both, it's no more than a 15 minute walk between the two. I did it the other day, and went to Olbys as well.

Anonymous said...

The Mayor? Sorry I'm new to London - does that mean Boris Johnson or some Ladywell local mayor?

Headhunter said...

Local Lewisham Borough Mayor - Steve Bullock or whatever his name is. Not Bozo...

Anonymous said...

Oh :(

Tressilliana said...

Excuse me: you surely mean Sir Steve Bullock. If the anti-Bullock candidates had got their act together in the last election and settled on one candidate instead of putting up half a dozen, he wouldn't be Mayor now.

The Cat Man said...

I think I will run for Mayor next time, if he can get elected then so can i. Mung beans et all.

Headhunter said...

Oh sorry SIR Steve Bollocks, I mean Bullock....

max said...

He sent me a Christmas card actually this year, I have it here on my table, with a real signature!

nobbly brick said...

you should be ashamed of yourself Max

max said...

Tressiliana, the chances of having the opposition parties agreeing on one single opponent are quite close to zero. It is in the interest of even the smallest parties to have a candidate and it makes no difference to them if who wins is one or the other since it won't be them anyway.
Nevertheless, the great result of last elections was that we got a balanced Council, it makes an enormous difference.
I actually think that it should be written in the Constitution that the Mayor's party can't have more than half of the seats at Council, or even one third only, as that is the amount of votes required to approve the budget.

max said...

Nobbly, do I detect a tad of envy?

nobbly brick said...

yes, OK, I suppose so

damn it

max said...

Has anybody seen 3d animated film "Horton hears a Who"?
Apart for the fact that's a wonderful film I recommend it as part of it takes place in Whoville that's a little town with an executive Mayor and there's a lot of action happening between the Mayor and the Council. Great fun.

Tressilliana said...

I agree, Max. It was just a bit frustrating that we (the electorate) managed to break the Labour monopoly on Lewisham Council for the first time in decades but we were still stuck with Sir Steve. Maybe next time...

One-party states are a very bad thing.

Anonymous said...

Isn't Lewisham still Labour?

Tressilliana said...

No, it's No Overall Control. Labour is the single largest party but the other parties all added together have more members than Labour, so Labour can't bulldoze its decisions through any more.

max said...

Yes, but although the Mayor (Labour) has all executive powers the Council that is split down the middle still has to vote the budget and also all committees have a composition that reflects the Council and this makes a difference throughout the works of the Council, though in a soft way.
The Council has approved motions in disagreement of the Mayor for example and then the Mayor had to implement them even if the disagreed.

max said...

That's funny, two answers written at the same time, both saying roughly the same, one starting with yes, the other with no.

Sian said...

Sorry to interrupt the fascinating discussion of local politics (not quite sure how the market prompted that discussion!) but I thought I should correct my own flu-induced typo. We delivered 2500 leaflets to local residents and shops, not 250 - a small point of interest only to those hardy souls who braved the rains to deliver them.

Perhaps some of you would like to come and put your thoughts to the mayor in person at the market?

And it is indeed the same day as Brockley - though that discussion was already held weeks ago on here! More importantly it's a great walk between the two over Hilly Fields and they will be fairly different - they are complementary rather than rival - hence the advertising for Brockley on the Ladywell leaflets!

nobbly brick said...

I was one of those worthy souls, and I was thinking "hey, I got through 300 of 'em!"

Tamsin said...

I got a card from Sir Steve too, and an invite to a Christmas bash. Since I am or in the past have been at loggerheads with the Council on one or two other issues I investigated how I was on the list to get this - apparently is those on the Ward Assembly Steering Groups, these being the current flavour of the month.
Max, what is your guilty secret?

max said...

Yes, I'm on my ward's steering group and I had worked out the reason for the card already. And I've got the invitation to the bash as well.
Which happens at the Town Hall on the afternoon before BC drinks, not that I want to encourage gate crushers.

Monkeyboy said...

...keep your freinds close, but your enemies closer. Watch your backs, there may be poison vol au vont floating around.

max said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
max said...

He probably just signed off a bunch of cards not knowing who he was inviting and now he's reading this blog and thinking "bloody hell".

More info said...

The Farmer's market is also on, Saturday morning, held on Hilly Fields near the bowling court.

Anonymous said...

I may be wrong but I believe the farmer's market has moved location to the Ladywell Xmas market this weekend.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately for the Xmas markets, the weather forecast for Saturday is pretty atrocious:
http://www.metcheck.com/V40/UK/FREE/dayforecast.asp?zipcode=se4&day=2

Anonymous said...

Wow.. that's not too optimistic is it.

Good job I've bought myself a new real fur coat with waterproof sealskin lining.

Brockley Jon said...

Indeed anon, the Farmer's Market will be held in Ladywell, to coincide with the Xmas market.

Anonymous said...

Where is the ladywell xmas market flyer?

Sian said...

I can't post it on here but did send it to Brockley Nick - maybe he was overwhelmed by its beauty and forgot to post it. I can email a copy....

Anonymous said...

Why not just post it on here then?

Brockley Nick said...

I don't know how to upload a pdf :(

Anonymous said...

Convert into a jpg Nick.

Do a printscreen or screengrab (a jpeg) and post that.

Brockley Nick said...

That's what I did for the Brockley one, but the Ladwell one is a bit of a monster, with loads of info, etc on it, which will be illegible if I do that.

Brockley Jon said...

Send to me if you like, Nick.

Anonymous said...

You just need to make a bigger JPG

Pete said...

I've still got a few of the leaflets so if you want to have a look you can get one off me at the market.

Sian said...

It's a wet Saturday in Brockley, so what do you do? Pick fluff from your navel and wonder why there's nothing on locally to keep you amused.....?

NO, INDEEDY, NO!!!!!

You put on your wet weather gear, grab your dosh and hot foot it down to Ladywell Village from to the Christmas market (11-5) where you feast on roast hog rolls, mince pies, mulled wine, stock up on "artisan" food produce (ie high quality, locally-produced goodies for your tea), listen to some carols, buy some raffle tickets so you can win some rather nice prizes (Sunday lunch at the Ladywell Tavern, a £50 cvoucher to use at Geddes, champagne, even a Christmas tree!), buy a Christmas present or two, then when you've had your fill you wander across Hilly Fields to Brockley station and visit the market there too (12-6) - you make a lantern, sing some more carols, buy some more presents, eat some more mince pies.... you get the picture.

And then, if you've still got some energy, you wander back over to Ladywell (10 mins by foot or hop on the bus) to the Tavern to see the raffle draw at 8.30 and listen to some great local bands. Much later, you stumble home, fed and watered and having had a really good day despite the fact that there's a recession on and there's nothing to do on a wet Saturday around here...

Go on! You know you want to!

(end of shameless marketing plug for local community groups being proactive!)

nobbly brick said...

Weather makes the trip to Brockley doubtful, but Ladywell will be a big yes, followed by the Tavern later!

Hoping to buy Sir Steve a pint, will form a queue behind Max...

Anonymous of course! said...

I using the car, sorry, I don't care it's too wet walk places.

toshy said...

Anyone know if these are both still happening, in spite of the weather?

nobbly brick said...

Saw the tents/stalls etc outside Ladywell station this morning as they were setting up, so that's certainly going on, I'm sure the Brockleyites are just as hardy.

Anonymous said...

Just been to both.

Brockley : not much to see, some mince pies, badger books and traditional west african food which no doubt pleased Catman

Ladywell: a bit nicer looking, one of the stalls was called "artisan foods" and the farmers market had some enormous apples.

Kind of makes me wonder why 2 markets held in the same day with are both, essentially, IN Brockley couldn't have just clubbed together and made one bigger market. Why the split?

Pesto said...

There's a bit more to Brockley's market than that, there's jewellery, toys, trains, Christmas cards, bags, The shop on the Hill is there, there's bell ringing, the ukele group who are actually good, and there's mulled wine. The best thing is the atmosphere, everyone is really friendly there's lot of laughter, j.ust good Christmas cheer. It's good stuff.

troll said...

'christmas cheer' and 'lots of laughter' strikes fear into my heart

The Cat Man said...

It is local politics i'm afraid. the Ladywell action group has recently formed with the blessing of Clr Sue Luxton. No doubt she was very helpful in getting the mayor to attend and establishing support for the market.

The last thing she would of wanted was for a bigger market at Brockley station, shes in it to promote Ladywell and that, at times, means not Brockley.

I for one didnt bother attending the Brockley market. I'm normally in favour of supporting local events but having stalls selling 'traditional west african food' highlights the reason why I dont want to go. It's not traditional enough and quite frankly has lost all meaning in supporting Christmas. Sorry.

I'm just about to go to a nice Christmas market in Winchester in the ground of the Cathdereal.
http://www.winchesterchristmasmarket.co.uk/images/gallery_icons/Latenightshopping.jpg

If you build it they will come.

Anonymous said...

You just don't get it do you? is there a list of acceptable Xmas stalls for this kind of event? You live in a part of london that has a large proportion of black people who's roots are Africa/Caribbean, are you saying that an event partially funded by the council should ban food stuffs from there? What about stalls selling Panatone (italian) or Stollen (Austrian) or Oyster Card wallets, no tube in the bible as far as I can see. Xmas is just a food & drink blow out. The Christmas that you think of as traditional is not the same as the one celebrated 150 years ago in the UK. Things change you STUPID man.

Please stay in Winchester.

Anonymous said...

As as for the Sue Luxton dig? What's that all about? Everyone hates you on here, no really they do.

Anonymous said...

I don't hate catman, in fact I think he's one of the top posters, but I can't help but feel that that last post was ill thought-out. Only fuels the fires really...

Anonymous said...

Top posters? Entertaining in the '...did he really just say that?...' vein I suppose. W Bush was entertaining in some of the breathtakingly ignorant things he said I s'pose.

Cat Man hate's anything that isn't (in his opinion) indigenous. He's a xenophobe, I hate xenophobes.

Anonymous said...

Jesus never ate artisan buns.

The Cat Man said...

Oh dear, he we go again! It wasn't a dig at anyone, I was merely pointing out that I would prefer more traditional english festivities rather than a mix. I don't see anything wrong with saying that and obviously I will spend my hard earned dosh as I see fit. If Brockley does not cater for my needs then I will go elsewhere.

The Sux Luxton dig, wasn't actually a dig at her. I was pointing out that we don't really have a champion supporting Brockley's re-generation, do we?

Anonymous said...

The catman is sadly socially retarded - the brockley christmas market doesn't celebrate christmas because there was African Food there? Christianity has been present in parts of Africa for as long if not longer than in the UK you stupid, ignorant, repellent little man.

As for this having anything to do with local politics it just goes to show that you know absolutely nothing and just like to spout rubbish.

Do us all a favour and fall under a bus would you.

The Cat Man said...

Stollen is German, not Austrian - silly anon!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stollen

Anonymous said...

I guess the point is that if you don't fancy the jerk chicken, you can walk on by and look at something else. Only ... There wasn't much else.

Could have easily combined the two to make one all encompassing Brockley festival- Ladywell had roast hog which catered a lot more for the "traditional" crowd!

The Cat Man said...

Anon - traditional in a UK setting. The last I heard Africa was not part of the UK, unless you have forgotten the last 100 yrs or so?

I blame Margaret Thatcher personally, history lessons clearly arn't what they used to be.

Anonymous said...

Christ - Ladywell isn't in Brockley so why would it have been an all encompassing Brockley event?

How would having the market on Coulgate street have been any use for people who live on Algernon Road or similar?

Perhaps we should just have a London Christmas market somewhere in Regent's Park so as to not divide things up too much?

Anonymous said...

Oh traditional in a UK setting - what's that then? We've been importing traditions literally for millenia, including Christianity.

I'm not sure who I blame for your ignorance.

The Cat Man said...

Last anon - thats exactly my point. Last year the Brockley christmas market even had a 'green' Santa. What the hell is all that about?

If there was a hog roast, roasted chestnuts, etc.. then I would attend.

I attended last year and was faced with a 'green' santa, cold chinese food and some nasty looking african cakes. The Broca made a good effort with the mince pies and mulled wine though, which was nice.

The Cat Man said...

too many anons - can we bring back the mung anons pls? My one brain cell has been overworked today already, and its only 10.35am.

Anonymous said...

As far as I'm concerned Ladywell is Brockley. Come on, they touch each other.

Anonymous said...

As far as I'm concerned Ladywell is Brockley. Come on, they touch each other.

The Cat Man said...

Politically, Ladywell Ward sits next to Brockley Ward which also sits next to Telegraph Hill Ward (anything west of Brockley station).

I've raised this point before. Sue Luxton represents Ladywell Ward, not Brockley therefore she will do want she can for the people who voted for her. Similar with Brockley, the councillors will not touch anything 'west' of Brockley station as there are no votes to win by doing so. Therefore all the comments saying 'more trees please' are wasted as no one from Telegraph Hill ward pays any attention to this blog.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Anonymous said...

Perhaps as far as I am concerned Brockley is actually part of Ladywell?

Then maybe Ladywell is actually part of Hither Green too? Which could be part of Catford.

Anonymous said...

Well I'm pretty sure that Sue Luxton was involved in the campaign against the bookmakers which I think is in Brockley (I could be wrong though). She holds her green party drinks in Mr Lawrences which is in Crofton Park.

I think to say she only cares about Ladywell is a complete fallacy and very, very unfair on her.

Of course she was involved in the initial setting up of LVIG but the Ladywell Christmas market was put together almost entirely by the efforts of three of the non-political members of that group.

This was noting to do with Ladywell vs Brockley other than in the heads of a few people who post on here. Ladywell is it's own distinct area with its own needs/problems and a christmas market was seen as a good way to get the community together.

From what I saw of the Ladywell market it was a great success in spite of the weather. I also believe that Brockley had (at least before bad weather) a full complement of stalls, so how can anyone say that Brockley's market suffered as a result?

Jt said...

They are clearly seperate areas, but I think many were surprised and disappointed that Ladywell copied the idea, held it on the same day but worst of all did it better!

Crofton Park should have one next year just to mix things up!

You complete and utter mung! said...

Maybe then we're all just Lewisham.

Other towns in the UK don't have this problem of having to split areas up on an almost street-by-street basis.

The Cat Man said...

JT I agree completely with what you said. I didn't go to the Ladywell one this year, but from the impression I have I may well attend next years one and not brockley's one. Its Sad really, as a Brockley-ite I should feel able to want to spend and shop locally. Its a bigger shame that it didn't really serve the things I would of expected in a Christmas market.

Anonymous said...

On the plus side, there were

Cakes
Mince pies
Badger books
Jewelry

Anonymous said...

"Other towns in the UK don't have this problem of having to split areas up on an almost street-by-street basis."

They don't, but then they're not as big as London. A vast number of Londoners do not have cars (I was going to say the majority but that might not be true) and even if they do you can't always park. Therefore having things local to where you live is a an advantage.

As I said earlier if you live at one end of Algernon road Brockley Station and Coulgate street are too far to go for a Christmas market.

Heck, for some people living in the conservation area the station is too far to go to get a train so they walk to St John's....

Anonymous said...

"Crofton Park should have one next year just to mix things up!"

Honour Oak Park might have one.

Anonymous said...

I live in Brockley and use Ladywell station - nicer market, nicer station.

Anonymous said...

Andy, spit it out. What do you object too, the fact that it was too small or the fact that it sold foreign* muck?

*santa clause is not British, we adopted him. Chritianity (and hence Christmas) is another middle eastern religion, shares the same roots as Islam and Judaism.

Anonymous said...

I have to admit, even as a lefty, that I find the choice of a black father christmas slightly bizaar. Is it going to be a gay woman in a wheelchair next year?

Jt said...

The father Christmas' COSTUME was black, not Santa himself, similiar to last year's being Green, so you can relax.

Anonymous said...

did they pick him specifically because he was black then? if not you have no point.

By the way, he's made up - a bit like the tooth fairy so does anyone actually care?

Monkeyboy said...

Oh god, I'm just confused now.

The Cat Man said...

What? The tooth fairy is made up? Criky.

Anonymous said...

The tooth fairy and father christmas are both alive and living in sheltered accomodation outside of the conservation area

Tressilliana said...

It's breathtaking, isn't it?

'I'm normally in favour of supporting local events but having stalls selling 'traditional west african food' highlights the reason why I dont want to go. It's not traditional enough and quite frankly has lost all meaning in supporting Christmas. '

Christmas is a Christian festival. I have the impression that a far higher proportion of the Black African and African Caribbean population are active church members than you'd find in the indigenous white population. Therefore it seems highly appropriate that people from those groups should be involved in a market celebrating Christmas. Far more appropriate than having white non-churchgoers purporting to celebrate a Christian festival, if you are going to attempt to define Christmas in those terms, as opposed to what it really is for most of us in the UK now, viz, a midwinter festival with no religious significance designed to give us all something to look forward to at the gloomiest time of the year.

What you seem to be hankering after, Catman, is the Dickens/Coca Cola version of Christmas, complete with roaring log fires, a white-bearded man in a red coat and rosy-cheeked, white-skinned children singing carols. What on earth do you mean 'has lost all value in supporting Christmas'? What have mince pies and Christmas carols got to do with the nativity story?

You might as well just say straight out: 'I don't like having people from other cultures living in the UK. I want to close the borders and send all the non-whites back to where they or their distant ancestors might have come from. I want to ossify British culture for the first time ever and close the minds of the British people to influences from outside the UK.'

God help us if people like you ever had any political power in the UK. Fortunately I think there's more chance of Hell freezing over.

Anonymous said...

I must admit the dickens/cocacola version does occupy a certain soft spot in my heart too.

nobbly brick said...

The weather was truly appalling but the people doing the Ladywell stalls were putting on a brave face - it's a nice little site and perhaps the farmers market should be down there more regularly.

The Ladywell tavern was packed and really alive with the spirit of things, and seemed even better after a couple of pints of Gales.

Pesto said...

I have some sympathy with the tradition sentiment, because throughout the year we're busy living our lives in whatever way. Christmas is the one period of the year when we as a nation can follow something our predecessors did.

But we need to create new traditions, in our family we have a tradition of all going to see the film "It's a Wonderful life" instead of going to panto.

A related aside the Brockley Film Club has the film After life on, on Monday 15th 7.30pm.

The trailer is here

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DN9sr5wVkik

It looks like a good film and I'd be prepared to bend tradition to accomodate it.

Monkeyboy said...

Must admit I stayed at home 'cos it was cold and wet and I'm a miserable bugger.

Tresiliana - well said. Personally I wouldn't mind it being a bit more pagan. Would suit this blogs (or is it blog's or blogs'??) tree hugging thing.

Promise to go next year, assuming we're not all trying to stay warm by burning piles of worthless £20 notes.

max said...

Yesterday I stayed at home because my little daughter caught the flu at nursery, but I saw "the Gospel according to Matthew" by Pier Paolo Pasolini.
Pretty good and Christmasy enough, highly recommended.

fabhat said...

I went to the Brockley fair with my husband and my brother and his wife. We all bought a few Christmas presents - from maradoll and the pottery stall and the handmade bagsstall and had some mulled wine and listened to the ukes...
The weather was wet and miserable, but despite that, the atmosphere was cheery and there were plenty of interesting stalls. I didn't make it as far as Ladywell - but hope to next year.

Sian said...

When people who don't know the facts write as though they do, all kinds of nonsense gets written and said and passed on.

As one of the three main organisers of the Ladywell Christmas market, here are some facts:

Fact 1: Sue Luxton's role in organsing the market was limitied to being very supportive, helping deliver flyers, and helping provide funding. And helping fold up raffle tickets last night in the Tavern.

Fact 2: For those of you who are not so hot on local geography, Ladywell Village is a place that exists independently of Brockley, has its own parade of shops, its own Council Ward, its own Safer Neighbourds Panel, its own station, its own park, its own... are you getting the picture? (Deepest and most sincere apologies to all of you who understand this point already.)

Fact 3: The Ladywell Village Improvement Group was set up earlier this year by people who live and work in, ahem, Ladywell Village. Not Brockley. Brockley residents can get involved in the Brockley Cross Action Group, the Brockley Society, etc. Ladywell residents would like to see Ladywell Village thrive and be an attractive and vibrant place to do their shopping, meet friends, enjoy a night out etc. There are no political motives involved.

Fact 4: Planning for both markets was arranged around the local communities, not around an attempt to "out-do" each other. The Ladywell market strategy was based on the concept of asking the City and Country Farmers Market forming the initial core, and the only day they could do was Saturday 13 December. Thus it was that Ladywell decided to hold the market on that day, knowing that it could draw on the invaluable experience of the Farmers Market. Now we have a framework and experience of running a market, the choice of dates will be more flexible. Many people went to both and enjoyed the different stalls at both.

The Ladywell market was a lot of fun and well attended. The roast hog, the mulled wine, the carol singing by St Mary's church choir, the performance by the rock choir at the Tavern, the live band night, the lighting of the Christmas tree by the mayor, and the Christmas raffle all attracted lots of visitors and we had some excellent feedback. There were of course lots of lessons to learn but overall the first Ladywell Village Christmas market was a success.

Most of all, a huge thank you to everyone who came along and ate, drank and shopped. All constructive feedback welcome - the Ladywell Village Improvement Group is always looking for support, feedback and ideas. Contact ladywell.info@googlemail.com if you have anything to add or offer.

Jt said...

Don't take the internet too seriously.

nobbly brick said...

I had raffle tickets numbers 221-245 inclusive

did I win anything?

The Cat Man said...

yes, a plate of jerk chicken.

Merry Christmas.

John Moonbow Jakes said...

Nick, it is so clear that you have your site has really lost its way, so disappointing as it could be a really constructive place. The business community hate the vitriol you allow and you are allowing such damage to be caused to area and deter investors by allowing these sad half-lives a voice. Like a poor pub landlord, with morons at the bar deciding who comes in, this site is descending into kick anyone who isn’t like me.

I am John from Moonbow Jakes. There were some pretty horrible comments on my place, which has only been here for 7 years, and quiet insulting to the many people who like it. If someone were heard making comments like 4x4 followed by anon in my bar they would be thrown out. Do you think that the Jam Circus is glad to see Moonbow Jakes close? Do you think they want to be associated with 4x4 or anon’s comments? Jam, Mr Lawrence, Toad, Broca, Honor Oak, Moonbow Jakes, Magi’s, Shop on the Hill and all the others know the score and we are all struggling to reach our target audience; that is business. No decent enterprise wants to see another fail, except some on this blogsite (if it is a enterprise). We know we need diversity to survive. I despair at the lack of respect on this site. The comments about the markets are just awful. It was freezing, raining and trade is really tough; we are in a meltdown that is not in the economic books. Your entering dodgy ground allowing comments like “I have to admit, even as a lefty, that I find the choice of a black father christmas slightly bizaar. Is it going to be a gay woman in a wheelchair next year?” Time your site grows up Nick or stops completely. Alternatively throw out Huge, Catman et al. Your losing friends fast.

John

Monkeyboy said...

Bit harsh to blame Nick, he finds those comment as tiresome as you I'm sure. Either he spends all his time censoring the comments or he allows an open forum. Slag off Cat and 4x4 by all means but have any of Nicks posts been critical of your enterprise? I'd say quiet the opposite, he's continually bigging up local businesses - especially yours.

Andy has the brain of a peanut and hates anything with an afro-Caribbean connection. You'll find numpties like that wherever you are.

Anonymous said...

and obviously you read this...

http://brockleycentral.blogspot.com/2008/03/moonbow-jakes-brockley-road.html

Jt said...

John of Moonbow you have to back up. Most of the comments are tongue in cheek, Johnathan Ross style cheeky humour which if you aren't a regular won't pick up on. The internet is irrevent and largely anarchaic, hence you should not take it too seriously. However some of the comments about your place are valid, harsh but from my perspective as a very occasional customer true. Would I say that to your face probably not, I just wouldn't return and that is the problem. Look upon any feedback you get about your business as an opportunity, surely seizing opportunities is what being a business about??

The Cat Man said...

It is true, I am a numptie (is'it....!!).

I have only been to moonbrow jakes a few times and I thought the venue was fairly nice, apart from the coffee. I was speaking to Erin from the broca the other day and it's quite true that moonbrows will be sorely missed, as it was a social point for the brockley community.

I will re-iterate my point, ladywell market sounded great, brockleys did not. Lessons need to be learnt if you want my dosh being spent locally. Same with moonbrows, instead of complaining open up another one near the station and serve better coffee

The Cat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Oh come on Moonbow Jakes - it was quite clear that comment was in itself a comment on apparent political correctness - it has nothing for against blacks, gays, women or people in wheelchairs.

Anonymous said...

Oh and for what it's worth - I think this site is getting more friends, not less. Its now at a stage where serious media are picking up on it and it needs a proper forum - it has truly transcended the features that a blog provides.

What you're hearing here is Brockley in it's rawest form - some rough, some smooth, but all real opinions.

Brockley Kate said...

I can completely empathise with John (moonbow Jake's) and others who find some of the commenters on this site extremely frustrating.

However, purely from a practical point of view I'd like to ask them how exactly they envisage that Nick could stop such comments?

This is a blog platform, not a bulletin board (or a real-life establishment with a door and a burly bloke to enforce its use!). It is not technically possible to ban people from this site. There are only two ways in which a blog can be 'policed' to the extent of preventing dissenting voices from appearing:
1) Complete comment moderation.
This site gets tens of comments a day. Nick has a full-time job already. It simply wouldn't be practical for him to screen every comment before it appears.

2) Retrospective moderation. Nick tries to do this, but again, the volume of material on here is so high that it is impossible to keep up with 100%. If you see something offensive which you really think should be removed, then email him to let him know.

One of the reasons that we are hoping to develop a bulletin board is that it will allow greater scope for both debate and discipline. However it won't address the fundamental issue of what is considered acceptable to post, and what isn't. That's something which is of course up to Nick to draw the line on, but it does help to hear the views of as wide a range of site-users as possible, in order to ensure that people aren't feeling alienated by the actions of an albeit vocal minority.

Sorry for waffling on. In short - there is no easy answer. It is sad that some people are getting so unhappy about some of the commenters on this site. I hope that perhaps this will spur everyone on here to contemplate how they come across.

Monkeyboy said...

If it wasn't for this blog I wouldn't have known that 'The Shop On The Hill', 'Peter James' Broca's new store even existed. I've used them all because I read this blog.

Anonymous said...

I have to say I'm in agreement with John from Moonbow's.
When the site started there was far less negativity and I was a regular poster, but the constant dripping and criticism, obnoxious comments or wrangling over racism has become tiresome. As a consequence, of all the regular posters, only a few come out of this with any credit. I can understand why Erin chose not to conduct an interview with BC about her new venture because frankly why bother. It will only be followed by inane comments from a bunch of idiots who think they have all the answers.

My suggestion would be to make this a subscribed service which would allow you to ban anyone who comes out with anything offensive. I'd happily lose my right to post on here anonymously just to get back the feeling that Brockley wasn't populated almost entirely of smug w**kers who are good at indignation but poor in every other aspect of personality.

Monkeyboy said...

God, isn't my English appalling?

Anonymous said...

Monkeyboy - so you never walk around Brockley?

Brockley Kate said...

Or perhaps we could just turn comments off altogether, and let the green ink brigade return to the welcoming arms of the News Shopper?!

Anonymous said...

One man's "offensive" is another man's "it needed saying"...

You must learn to respect ALL opinions, as those who respond to yours do with yours.

osh said...

Perhaps we could all bury our heads in the sand. That would solve everything.

Anonymous said...

I'm a regular, and I don't pick up on the tongue in cheek tone of many comments. I find them sneering, smug,and completely unneccesary. Posters should remember that the tone they hear in their heads is not tranlated onto the page.

Anonymous said...

Is it locally produced sand?

Tamsin said...

If the experience of the forums on thehill.org website is anything to go by you might want to be a bit wary of regulation. Comment of almost any kind has dried to a trickle.

Monkeyboy said...

I do walk around, but had no particular reason to walk over the other side of the tracks. This Blog pointed me in that direction, also had no reason to walk all the way from Malpas Road to a side street in Crofton Park on the off chance of finding an old school butcher.

I shall resolve to walk around at random in the future in the hope of finding an interesting shop, OK?

Anonymous said...

Fairly sure you would have come across the shops sooner or later.

Anonymous said...

This blog let me know there were Christmas markets in both Brockley and the Brockley suburb of Ladywell - because I saw no other publicity for either event and had nothing through my door.

Name and address supplied, of the C Area.

nobbly brick said...

This 'hue and cry' mentality was prolonged and perhaps started by the Speedicars sign debate.

Without trawling through the back issues I think that this was supported, if not orchestrated by, BC and, in my opinion, was regrettable in the extreme. It made focussing on the negative in regard to local businesses acceptable and it has spawned what we are witnessing now.

Moonbow John has stuck his head above the parapet and I salute the stand he has taken (I have never been into MJ's).

I was negative about the Tea factory gallery because I'd like to get inside and see whats going on, but I fully respect that none of their group has seen fit to comment here.

I run a business in Ladywell, albeit not a retail one, and BC would be the very last place that I would choose to promote it. Other people have less choice whether they like it or not and on this blog any publicity is generally bad publicity.

Anonymous said...

Strange example - I and many others came out in SUPPORT for Speedicars - whilst they had clearly made a technical error with regard to C Zone regulations on signage, the comments like "make sure Speedicars' sign is at the TOP of the agenda" were just complete over-the-top bullshit. We came out in support for the business on that one, as many of us did for Portland, and we will do it again. :-)

Monkeyboy said...

erm....possibly. But I found it sooner... my point still stands.

I spent £12 last week at the Broca shop, wouldn't have done otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Anon 17:57. That's the problem. 90% of communication is non-verbal, and you have to be so careful with how you express yourself here. A lot of my comments have been misinterpreted. They're meant in a friendly way (or sometimes as a cheeky wind-up), but often they lead to arguments, and frankly I can't be bothered much anymore. Short of littering every post with smileys, there doesn't seem much that I can do. Except learning to express myself more clearly, obviously ;-)

FWIW, Another local business person, who SHALL remain nameless, described this blog as 'cliquey' to me.

Anonymous said...

Wasn't the guy from Dukes was it?

Anonymous said...

Only 12 pounds?

Monkeyboy said...

Homemade meatballs tonight, with plenty of sage and tyme. I'll settle down with a cup of tea and see what appalling dress Sue Barker chooses to wear on BBC Sports 'personality' of the year.

Go on, you know you'll watch it too.

Nobbly, you use this Blog abundantly and challenge the administrators and authors - what's the problem?

Anonymous said...

sounds awful.

nobbly brick said...

mkby, my comments cover a greater area than simply being 'challenging' but I'll take challenging as a compliment - it's a good thing to challenge it's not a good thing to be negatively critical or support negative criticism - I hope I'm not doing either. Abundantly or not.

Actually mkby I like you...

Jt said...

This blog is good for Brockley and it can be good for your local business if you know how to use it. Richard of Jam Circus interacts here. In a non hierachical way but as a fellow user, he doesn't use the old media style of having a press secretary.

He listens to what users says, this endears people to him and his business. He addresses negativity constructively rather than simply insulting the commenters. Fighting vitriol with vitriol...just leaves everyone covered in vitriol...

Corporate interests won't like unfettered media. It's a battle you see all over the internet, Youtube right now is alogrithmically demoting videos with content that it deems unacceptable, swearing, people are crying foul. You're likley to see some major fallout from that in the next year. But that's the way things are now.

The Cat Man said...

Well, back from the christmas market in winchester now. All I can say is that it was a fabulous experience. There was circa 50 stalls there, an outside ice-rink, a british craft fayre, carol singing, european food (things like hungarian goulash, glubvein, etc..) all in petit challet style shops. It was in the grounds on the catherdral, very christmasy and there was upteen christmas trees everywhere sparkling anyway.

And for the record, I think there was no 'grants' given to the market. And I voluntarily paid something like £25 return train ticket just to arrive. All of the stalls sold hand-made european goods generally of a high quality.

It was a fabulously traditional affair and I wish we could do something abit more closer to home.

Anonymous said...

Did they have any artisan produce? Any fair trade?

The Cat Man said...

Hmm, good point. I couldn't find a mung bean frappuncino stall. Winchester is going down I tell you!!!

Anonymous said...

LBC now!!!!

Anonymous said...

Andy carping from sidelines, is not good enough. Get in there and help shape things. I think the experience of organising a community event will help you to see things more three dimensionally.

brockley mutha said...

Ah Moonbow Jakes (I love your coffee shop by the way), I can appreciate that the comments of so many of the posters on this blog must be frustrating in the extreme, but it does have a place in the brockley community and a relatively valuable one at that. I visited the Broca supermarket because I read about it on here - we've been back three times and we'll probably use it regularly (the brussels are wonderful). Similarly I've patronised Degustation, the christmas markets, the new budgens, etc etc because I've read about them on this blog. If you check in regularly you learn who is the maniacal racist, who is tongue in cheek, who is the curmudgeonly old marxist, et al. Unfortunately there is rarely a debate which is not dominated by our resident racist, despite the best attempts of many of the regular posters on this site. That is a shame, and it would be infinitely preferable if it wasn't so. But don't be so quick to dismiss the value of Brockley Central. It would be missed - and not just by that idiot catman - if it wasn't here.

Anonymous said...

Catman - I would definitely encourage you to move to Winchester.

Anonymous said...

re The LBC comment. Steve (Bullock?) was talking to James Max about the Ladywell Christmas market. It's finished now.

Monkeyboy said...

Let's start an appeal for a ticket, I'm in for a tenner.

Got to go Sue and Gary are on, by the way meatballs not so great FAR too much sage.

Monkeyboy said...

...a ticket to Winchester I mean....

The Cat Man said...

I can appreciate running a community event is very tough - too many voices needed to be heard and responded too.

My perspective on this is that if you want change sometimes you need to go against the majority opinion. local groups are normally run by concensus so you do not really have a good platform to make change happen.

I'd happily get involved but its a waste of my time. I would probably get completely frustrated and end up wasting my time and theres and being seen as an obstacle rather than someone who shares their visions.

If I was parachuted into a leadership position however.....

Anonymous said...

Anon 18:20. No! Closer to your/our hearts than that...

The Cat Man said...

Brockley Mutha, anyone who spells 'mother' as 'mutha' really cannot be taken too seriously....

spell check not working?

Anonymous said...

Who else could it be?

The bloke from portland?
The ladies from fishy business?
Dude in the Esso garage?

Anonymous said...

For what it's worth this is one of the most clique-free boards I've used.

Bring on the forum - we'd all have to register, but I think it's worth it. Threads like the Christmas dos would bump their way to the top upon replying to them and nothing would get lost. And we'd all have our own little avatar and signature.

westsider said...

Nobbly Brick, your hipocrisy is breathtaking (again). You use this site to moan almost more than anyone else. The people from the gallery have come on this site many times and you've moaned plenty.

also, this site's focus on the speedicars sign wasn't an attack on the business, just a request for the rules to be observed, for all our benefit. Nick is almost always nice about local businesses and activities and you regularly criticise him for it.

Monkeyboy said...

Yep, Sue Barker looks like an old sock puppet, before I resume my bad TV watching I though I'd post this link. Play the vid and See Dubbya dance...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7782422.stm

Pete said...

It was Tony Major the Chairman of LVIG on LBC. I'll post a link to the podcast of the show when I it becomes available!

Tamsin said...

A market in Winchester would have have a much wider catchment area than either Ladywell or Brockley and, if you say there were no local authority grants (which I actually doubt), I'll bet the stall-holders paid plenty - way beyond the reach of the local enterprise that was in evidence yesterday.

max said...

Cat Man says: "And for the record, I think there was no 'grants' given to the market."

Anonymous said...

My word, how pathetic is that guy. People should honestly just ignore him.

Sue said...

Blimey, I think I'll avoid getting too embroiled in this, other than to say well done to all those from BCAG and LVIG who I know worked their socks off to make both markets a success, despite the weather.

I think the two markets complemented rather than competed with each other (that's the official line and I'm sticking with it, although there was a little inter-ward rivalry between the cllrs!). I did pop over to check out the Brockley market to do some research for my plan to subsume Brockley into Greater Ladywell,however ...

The Cat Man said...

Yes, I think you have a point there Tamsin. But it is something to aim for in my opinion.

It was much better than the one on Southbank.

I would of preferred a joined up brockley-ladywell effort. Why not hold one at Hillyfields? Its bigger enough for economies of scale, surely?

Tamsin said...

But with a wind like a knife. Leave that event for the Brock Soc. Summer Fair.
Also, once one has reached a size and organisational smoothness that works for most participants, no need to strive for anything bigger. Your risk spoiling what you've got. The Telegraph Festival regularly consider and reject the notion of expanding beyond the ten days in time or racking up to another level of event publicity and geographic outreach for wider audiences.
Keep local things local - Christmas Markets based in Brockley or Ladywell - and public who want something else can look for it in Southbank, Bromley or Winchester.

Pesto said...

It's sad how there is such a tone of moaning and complaint here, things can always improve but there are many areas in Lewisham that would crave having any form of community Christmas market much less two in close proximity and I would have hoped that the emphasis would have been on gratitude that both events took place, went well and that most people had a pleasant time, despite the weather.

Anonymous said...

Pesto - who's moaning? One bloke, who everyone knows is a loser. Everyone else is saying they enjoyed it in spite of the weather.

Anonymous said...

http://greenladywell.blogspot.com/2008/12/well-done-lvig.html

Some great panoramic pics there of the Ladywell croud having artisan fun.

Brockley Nick said...

Thanks for posting that, looks good.

drakefell debaser said...

Santa ‘traditionally’ wears a green suit not a red one and while we are at it why do the traditionalists on here refer to him as Santa Claus when, in Britain at least, he is or was, Father Christmas? The red suited version was made popular by coca cola and this has prevailed since but it is no more traditional than a black man dressed in a pink suit playing a kazoo. Perhaps what people think of as ‘traditional’ is just what they remember as a child or as seen on telly.

I think the greatest tradition of Christmas is sharing, giving and love and clearly that is lost with the like of catman. If people want to sell African food at a stall so be it – they do not force you to buy it just as teetotallers did not have mulled wine forced down their throats nor did veggies get given a fistful of hog to eat.

Do explain though why it is acceptable to sell that well known British food - Hungarian goulash in Winchester, and not African food in Brockley?

Your lodger from Botswana may have enjoyed the African food catman and it may have rekindled the memories he has of Christmas as a child just like the smell of chestnuts etc rekindle the memories you hold. I suspect that just like Father Christmas, this lodger, is a myth and xenophobia does not cover the extent of your prejudice.

The problem remains: how does a man with a self proclaimed intelligence and blatant racial prejudice come to buy a house in the South East of London. It’s like posh spice trying to buy a house in the Amish community and then wondering why her motorcade gets up peoples noses.

If you want a real traditional Christmas, may I suggest you book a ticket to Lapland next year and make pressies with the elves?

Unfortunately I blew my budget at the Tea Leaf Gallery before I got to the markets but the efforts of those that set up stalls should be applauded regardless of what they had for sale. On the topic of the gallery, I was very impressed with it and wish I had both the budget and hanging space to accommodate more of what they have. I think having this in our area is a great privilege and it was open most of Saturday from what I could tell Nobbly Brick.

The Cat Man said...

eh?

Just one thing. I certainly do not make things up to make myself unpopular!! Brockley is changing, I have no problems advocating change in the area if I feel Brockley could benefit, Hog roast et all..

Anonymous said...

The bottom line is that you do nothing to help. You say you wouldn't mind if you were parachuted to the top. Unless you have a track record in producing successful community events how would that even be a sensible consideration.

The Cat Man said...

Yes, thats a good point. I'm quite good at managing budgets of over £1m and resourcing it and execting deliverables. But it is true, I do not have much experience running community events.

Anonymous said...

and yet your grammar and spelling are atrocious. I wouldn't let you run a bath.

Tressilliana said...

Sometimes I wonder, but now I'm quite sure his sole aim is to wind us all up. It's that or conclude that his IQ is lower than his shoe size.

'Brockley Mutha, anyone who spells 'mother' as 'mutha' really cannot be taken too seriously....

spell check not working?'

This from a man whose standard of written English is consistently abysmal.

The Cat Man said...

Thanks, much appreciated.

drakefell debaser said...

Catman, please can you answer my question: Why is it acceptable to sell Hungarian Goulash in Winchester but not any African food in Brockley?

patrick1971 said...

"This from a man whose standard of written English is consistently abysmal."

That made me roar with laughter too, Tressilliana.

And how difficult is it to get "would have" right? Every time I see "would of", "could of", "should of", etc. I start thinking dark thoughts about taking away the right to vote... :-)

Anonymous said...

One badly-timed "should of", there.

Zwarte Piet said...

CatMan. You seem to choose which traditions are appropriate to you alone. C'mon fella, it's a bit selfish, don't you think? Try and broaden your mind a bit - it won't explode - you have my word. (Father Christmas used to wear green robes in England/Britain until the middle of the C19th, as has been explained to you before, and what we know as Crimbo is a crazy mixture of cultural traditions that have been assimilated over the centuries. There's nothing "pure" about it.)

Anonymous said...

LOL, I've seen Zwarte Piet before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

nobbly brick said...

Thanks for the info drakefell debaser

have not given up hope on that front, just a shortage of available time...

drakefell debaser said...

Fair enough NB, if you are based down by Ladywell then walking up on the off chance they are open is a bit of a mission.

I think you should have more joy on the weekends though and hopefully they will have something to your taste.

nobbly brick said...

thanks very much again DD, joy on the weekends is a good thing and not entirely absent!

all the best

;)

Tamsin said...

Someone earlier on this thread who called themselves "Pesto" said "But we need to create new traditions, in our family we have a tradition of all going to see the film "It's a Wonderful life" instead of going to panto."

So to let them know (if they are still in the area and still reading this blog) that it is on free this Wednesday, 19th, in St. Catherine's Church. Not quite sure of the time - what I was doing a search of the site to find out.

Brockley Central Label Cloud

Click one of the labels below to see all posts on that subject. The bigger the label, the more posts there are!