Sim City: Bakerloo Line Edition


In question time with Mayor Boris yesterday he said: "We have got to improve the transport links in south London and we are looking at that now." Given that (having scrapped a couple of bridges and a couple of tram projects that would have helped) an extension of the Bakerloo Line is one of the most realistic ideas on the table and there was speculation in thelondonpaper yesterday that this is what Boris has in mind.

The project is uncosted and no preferred route has been identified, so an actual functioning line would be many, many years away.

Still, let that detail not stop us.

Above is a route preferred by the sort of people who enjoy discussing these sorts of things on specialist websites, heading south east from Elephant and Castle to Lewisham, via Peckham and New Cross Gate. This route would have the advantage that it would integrate with existing south east London transport hubs and serve a stretch of London with enormous regeneration potential (particularly along the Old Kent Road).

39 comments:

853blog said...

The idea of extending the Bakerloo's as old as the hills, in fact there's some tunnelling beneath the Elephant and Castle for an aborted extension to Camberwell. The Bakerloo's the only line which can reasonably take an extension as well.

I'd definitely favour a link to Camberwell, Brockley and Lewisham, and onto Lee and Eltham - but there's plenty of competition from badly-served south-east London suburbs!

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

I always understood the line was originally destined to follow the Old Kent Road and the A20 from New Cross to Lewisham. it was to be a South East version of the Northern Line to the South West.

The trouble was Victorian tunnelling technology could not cope with the ground conditions down our way.

It appears to have gained a kink to Peckhan nowadays.

Let hope Boris gets on with it.....

Clare said...

on to Lee would be nice, can't see it happening though. It's about as likely as the DLR extension to Catford.

patrick1971 said...

As I just said on the other thread, and as 853blog has also just said, the tunnels go half way down Walworth Road already, and the extension to Camberwell has been mooted for so long that I think the residents of SE5 would revolt if the Bakerloo were extended without including Camberwell!

A route going to Walworth/Denmark Hill/Peckham Rye/Nunhead/Brockley/Lewisham, then taking over the line to Hayes, is probably the most likely route if anything ever comes off.

And what's that thing on the map about a DLR extension to Catford? Would it run along the main road like a tram?

Brockley Nick said...

@TM - damn those useless, timid Victorians

@Patrick - the DLR to Catford's been talked about for yonks, but I think there is a serious problem with how they'd get it across Lewisham before it could carry on down there. I'd bet on the Bakerloo line being built before the Catford DLR.

Clare said...

Nick - I bet on neither of them happening. The Chelsea-Hackney line is probably more likely as it serves SW London. We are the paupers out here in the SE, the forgotten people!

Patrick - DLR on main road like a tram sounds ace.

Brockley Nick said...

I don't know, there are a lot of Boris voters in Bromley, if they can find a way to extend either to there...

Anonymous said...

I voted Boris. Two-party systems succeed better when the swing between them is pendulous.

And he hates the mung.

Sue said...

We discussed this briefly at our recent Sustainable Development Committee, as part of our follow up on the rail review the committee carrried out a couple of years back. Word is that Mayor Boris is enthusiastic about it, but given all the other projects that are in the pipeline at the moment, we'd be talking 2020-2025 at the earliest. The route our head of transport suggested they were looking at was Elephant & Castle to New Cross Gate (possibly via Walworth Rd), then Lewisham, then under Lewisham and coming above ground at Ladywell, which would be a 'sub-station', then merging with the Hayes line. All very very tentative and speculative at the moment, but smthg that I think Lewisham Council would be keen to support. Nick's right about the DLR extension to Catford - v tricky to get it across Lewisham, though not quite clear why we could get a railway line underneath but not a DLR one.

Brockley Nick said...

Anon, he rides a bike, has long unkempt hair, works in the public sector and will have lots of friends who swear by the power of wheatgrass, don't eat meat and name themselves after foodstuffs (ie: Plum).

By your dimwitted stereotyping, he's classic mung.

Anonymous said...

getting ahead of ourselves a little, but it raises an interesting question about where exactly a tube station could be dugout of the ground in lewisham given the (supposedly) imminent redevelopment of the town centre area and the area around the existing station. same goes for a bakerloo station around sainsburys' redevelopment of new cross gate. could this have the potention to send all these projects into serious delays?

Loo Baker said...

Wonderful idea.

However, I can confidently predict it won't happen in my lifetime. And I'm hoping to be around at least another 50 years.

853blog said...

Anon at 14.01 - Don't know how far advanced the Lewisham plans are, but space can be allocated below the developments to allow for future projects.

A big development at Moorgate went ahead with space earmarked for Crossrail - before that got the OK - and the 1970s redevelopment of Cannon Street station (the one that's being taken down now) was constructed with space for a station on the later-cancelled Jubilee Line phase 2.

nobbly brick said...

"below the developments"

don't think so - phenomenally expense to go deep and it's smack in the middle of a flood plain.

A tram link to Catford and beyond was also ruled out.

Gateway won't happen for another 10 years max - you can bet on that and probably not in anything like its current 'visualisation'.

Anonymous said...

"The trouble was Victorian tunnelling technology could not cope with the ground conditions down our way."

That's actually a bit of a myth. The trains companies south of the river didn't want the competition and so aggressively saw off a lot tube expansion down this way.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

I thought as much, but what are myths for, if not to be perpetuated...

Does it qualify as an Urban myth, a Transport myth?......or just a myth-take.......

nobbly brick said...

Just arranging the basic infrastructure in front of the DLR was a logistical nightmare because the amount of services (gas etc) that pass under the road at that point and it's a major 'services junction' for all points south. £25m was the figure quoted for that and the basic road re-alignment.

Tunneling would be impossible because of the lead-in area needed, and the quaggy...

david said...

@anon 14.01
Good point re whether the Sainsburys' proposal for NXG and the (supposed) Lewisham centre redevelopment would hinder the chance of an extension through those stations.

I can't see the lovely people at Sainsburys modifying any plans they have to accomodate the works needed for a station and the line on the off chance that it might happen one day in the next 20 years. Likewise, lovely as they are, I suspect Lewisham council are about as likely (and able) to factor a tube station in the redevelopment as [insert your preferred very unlikey thing here].

Without some real sign of "things happening" on the TFL front I can't see how this would change in time even if Sainsburys/Lewisham Council were willing to take a new bit of tube line into account. With signs of things happening though you can just about see Sainsburys being keen to help a bit - after all being on an extra tube line couldn't hurt the value of their proposed shops/units ...

Anonymous said...

Surely if they can tunnel under the thames they can tunnel under our quaggy!

The Cat Man said...

NIMBY thank you very much.

nobbly brick said...

ha ha anon 16:58 - but they haven't stuck mind-boggling amounts of architectural concrete on top of it first!

Anonymous said...

I don't think Brockley's up to "hub" status just yet - send them to new cross

Richard Elliot said...

It would be absolutely awesome to have two tube lines within easy reach of Brockers.

I'm not going to get excited just yet though!

Anonymous said...

yes I think regenerating Old Kent Road is possible and likely to happen at some point but it will be accelerated by this sort of commitment of cash and genuine energy.

How exciting to imagine...!

Fizzy said...

Another radial? No thank you. Apologies it's not quite Central territory, but what the Lee-Mottingham transport Black Hole requires is an orbital route up through Greenwich

Headhunter said...

The way the UKs public debt is spiralling out of control (possibly heading up to 60 odd per cent of GDP), I think we'll be lucky to see any of these projects coming off. Crash Gordon has hammered the economy to death and left us with a legacy that's going to severely affect public spending for decades...

Brockley Nick said...

"Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"

Headhunter said...

Eh?

Brockley Nick said...

It's a quote from Ghostbusters, when they are talking about a disaster of Bibilical proportions. I was trying to suggest that your talk of Crash Gordon and nothing ever being built again is apocalyptic tosh. Life goes on. Because it must.

Brockley Nick said...

PS - did you know that France, Italy, Canada, the US, Germany and Singapore all have public debt greater than 60% of GDP?

Monkeyboy said...

OK.....but Italy is a bit of a basket case. Nice grub though.

Monkeyboy said...

...and build more railways, I seem to be in the only recession proof industry at the mo.

I've survived Boris's cost cutting. Lots of nervous bean counters and project mangers loafing around the office. Many will have to apply for their own jobs, us engineers can sit back and watch them fight over them. It's like a gladiatorial trial in ancient Rome.

My money is on the beefy project manager from the third floor.

Brockley Nick said...

How about Norway then? Everybody likes Norway - that's got debt of more than 80% by some measures. Or Japan - lots of people think that's a model economy cos they make stuff and don't just blow it all on credit cards and houses like we have for the last 10 years (so the story goes). Except they've been stagnating for more than 10 years and have public debt of nearly 200%.

All these figures pre-date the credit crunch by the way. We are a model of responsile borrowing by international standards.

But MB, agreed about railways. Let's borrow to invest in things like a high speed rail link up the middle of the country.

Monkeyboy said...

Norway? apparently a pint cost something like a a million pounds. What kind of sick society is that?

Nice...erm...elk though.

Headhunter said...

Oh OK, as long as we're alright then. There was me getting a bit worried...!

tyrwhitt ali said...

Only vaguely related but I saw the Orient Epxress Pullman Carriages today on the high level line at Brockley today. I was very excited! God, I sound like a trainspotter...

Tressilliana said...

Nothing wrong with trainspotters!

Camberwell has a good case for better connections with the rest of London: King's College Hospital (massive teaching hospital), Maudsley Hospital (massive psychiatric hospital), various King's College London buildings (thousands of students and staff passing through), Salvation Army training college, Camberwell Magistrates and Youth Court, Camberwell College of Art. Densely populated residential area as well.

Anonymous said...

i'd argue that the route should go straight to Catford (ie. via peckham rye, nunhead, crofton park). The train line is already there. Just kick the rail operators off and put in the narrower track and get a proper service running. New Cross and Lewisham are already served by the overland and the dlr. Catford is just as populous as Lewisham center also. A new three in one station at Catford would be a great re-generation project too.

TM said...

Narrower track?

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