Moon Under Water in New Cross

Many as are the virtues of the Moon Under Water, I think that the garden is its best feature, because it allows whole families to go there instead of Mum having to stay at home and mind the baby while Dad goes out alone. And though, strictly speaking, they are only allowed in the garden, the children tend to seep into the pub and even to fetch drinks for their parents. This, I believe, is against the law, but it is a law that deserves to be broken, for it is the puritanical nonsense of excluding children —and therefore, to some extent, women—from pubs that has turned these places into mere boozing-shops instead of the family gathering-places that they ought to be. 
- George Orwell comes out on the side of yummy mummies in the great debate about pubs

The Sun today carries an article by Robin Turner, author of the Rough Pub Guide, who asks which pubs today still capture the spirit of the pubs celebrated by George Orwell in his famous essay, The Moon Under Water.

New Cross' Montague Arms is one of four pubs he highlights, saying:

OCTAGENARIAN staff (landlord Stan Pownall is 85), decor like the pirate ship in The Goonies and an events calendar including The Unwrong Quiz make this one of our strangest, and best, boozers.

With thanks to Dan Cooper.

53 comments:

kolp said...

Nick you are really working hard to drive traffic to this blog!

Anonymous said...

Nick's ex-PR - it's all about the SEO.

I also believe he's a Twitter Personal Brand Entrepreneur

Brockley Nick said...

Current PR. And yes, I am the new Kim Kardashian.

Anonymous said...

working harder at this than at his day job.

M-Z said...

Brockley Nick: Putting the apostrophe in Brockley's since 2011.

Anonymous said...

That apostrophe was created in Chicago, Illinois home of Edelman.

TM said...

But do they serve beer in china mugs?

Brockley Central - Smart Arse Division said...

Anon, you work harder at your conspiracy theories than your day job.....oh sorry, still looking?

Anonymous said...

Brockley Central - Smart Arse Division {Really an Edelman employee]- it's only a matter of time.

Jonah said...

Is it so ridiculous? I don’t think it’s much if a secret that Edelman exploits and mobilises public opinion via hyper local sites; its CEO actively encourages it.

The editors (his employees) are apparently motivated by the ‘desire’ to correct the failings of local newspapers and change the public diet from the usual negative press input, but this too is open to abuse.

I suspect that the company is stealing a march on its competitors and hopes to get business from the ‘official sites’ (local government, etc) to create ‘publicly’ run sites such as this. However, are they actually being run by and for the public or for a conglomerate? Stands to reason that ‘Ed’ would want to take advantage of what is a 21st-century ‘goldmind’.

Brockley Nick said...

@Jonah

Come again?

Mb said...

I like the double bluff of getting a known Edleman employee to run the strategy rather than an invented local. The bastards, i feel violated.

Brockley Nick said...

I can tell you, if the Edelman Digital team was behind this site, they wouldn't allow it to look quite so crap (no offence Brockley Jon).

We have a new CEO, so I'll tell him it's time to get out of the Rolls-Royce, Unilever, XBox, Manchester City FC, HP, Covent Garden, Astra Zeneca, Levi's, Puma, Krispy Kreme, The Economist Group business and move in to the far more lucrative world of amateur hyperlocal media.

My career progression is assured.

pedant said...

Perhaps you'd like to correct Jamie Olivers assertion last week that HP sauce was imported from India. It was invented in England, Leicester I think.

Running Nutter said...

the Montegue is a truly mad pub. It's the bates motel of boozers.

NAT said...

These Edelman guys seem quite smart with their world domination thingy, but before I join up, is the uniform anything like that of Mr.Clark (appearing locally) there's only so far...

pendant said...

Jamie Oliver's

Jonah said...

Come again, Nick?

“Government can work with hyperlocal editors, providing interviews and content, treating writers with respect and engaging
readers in conversation. Media brands can leverage their influence to drive traffic and
add legitimacy to communities, aggregating content and becoming hyperlocal hubs. Council newspapers can be shut down in
favour of working with hyper local communities to promote initiatives.”

South London Press beware - we have a regular James Murdoch in the making.

Brockley Nick said...

Yes Jonah, that's what I wrote. But that's not a business opportunity for Edelman, it's my view of how local government can more effectively communicate with its constituents.

We all want the Council to communicate more effectively. Many people resent Council-funded "newspapers" which lack independence or objectivity and cost money that could be spent on vital services.

They don't need to fund expensive newspaper / propaganda tools, they can encourage an independent hyperlocal media scene to flourish.

They don't need to view hyperlocal media with suspicion, they should treat them like they do all other local media. And by contributing themselves (as one or two Council officials have done on this site over the years) they will find that people respond positively.

I was offering my personal perspective, having run a hyperlocal site and dealt with a relatively constructive and helpful Council press office. I think there should be more sites like Brockley Central, run by local community members up and down the country, with the encouragement (though not financial support) of Councils.

So again, what is your point?

Jonah said...

Scepticism is good for democracy.

Brockley Nick said...

Do you want to expand on that pearl or is that it?

Jonah said...

"The bigger society also demands a new way of listening: send out
the sterility of small focus groups, bring in the filtered wisdom of the crowd, and insights are suddenly all the more powerful for it. Stop/start marketing must be replaced by authentic participation in conversation – in real time (get it, folks!), all
the time. Marketers are coming to terms with living in their customers’ worlds, rather than
expecting customers to live in theirs. In some way, this is genuine customer-centricity: truly
a new democracy. [Robert Philips, Edelman.]

Anonymous said...

Oh dear.

Brockley Nick said...

And?

Jonah said...

Sorry, Nick, only just got that 'And?'.

Perhaps that question mark should be mine though. You blog at all times of the working day - with the kind permission of your 'family - Edelman. I can't, and I find that a bit curious.

Brockley Nick said...

@Jonah

Well what are you going to do about your predicament? Maybe speak to your boss? Or change jobs? Or adapt your working day? I'm sure you can find a way.

I look forward to reading your blog.

Jonah said...

Is that an admission that your boss allows you to manage this site throughout the working day?

Brockley Nick said...

It's not an "admission" - I've said it dozens of times and it hardly needs saying. Of course I do stuff to the site during the "working day". I also have to do client work on weekends. It's called flexible working.

I happen to be good at my job and good at blogging, so I can juggle the two. Not that it's any of your business, but I choose to do this, instead of, say, sitting around at lunchtime with colleagues, talking about X Factor, posting holiday photos on Facebook or taking fag breaks.

And I'm not sure if you're aware, but I can set it to publish articles that I have pre-written, at intervals during the day. I can monitor and comment remotely, when I am on my way to meetings, etc, etc. Welcome to the digital age.

And there are times when my work is so intense that I write nothing. But I guess you don't notice the times I'm not doing much.

Different people do different kinds of jobs. There are some people who would think you lucky that you are allowed access to the internet during the "working day", assuming you work.

I do find it fascinating that someone with the wherewithal to find and quote passages of stuff I've written in obscure publications is somehow so unworldly that they don't understand this stuff, nor so ignorant of commerce that they think Brockley Central is somehow a brilliant money making scheme for a major multinational PR agency, employing 4,000 people worldwide.

It's the classic conspiracy theorist approach to problem solving - string together a series of obscure facts, fill in the gaps with some assumptions, lace it with dark motives and a fair degree of projection and voila! Far more fun than considering the possibility that maybe here's a guy doing something because he enjoys it.

Grand LizZard Overlord said...

The day is near, the forces are assembled. Don't bother buying any clothes for next spring. Thats all I'm saying.

Jonah said...

For hyperlocal sites to provide interesting and challenging content every day, they need
to be open to provocative views.
They occasionally need to be rude, argumentative, frivolous or
pointless, because that’s what real community conversations are like, Nick.

NO NEED FOR CONSPIRACY.

Monkeyboy said...

"Need to be open to provocative views. They occasionally need to be rude, argumentative, frivolous or pointless"

So we have bollards, drug rehabilitation centres, vitriolic comments accusing other posters of being mad or nazis (sorry but he is). Riot reporting, riot apologists, hanging is too good for them. And finally we have a poster(s) slandering the blog owner without censure, thanks for the heads up about Edleman manipulation. Not convinced but carry on making your case.

Sounds like this blog is fulfilling all your requirements.

Jonah said...

Not mine. Monkeyboy (stooge) that was cut-and-paste quote I took from Nick.

Brockley Nick said...

@Jonah - you have confused lively debate based on differing opinions with casting baseless and unpleasant aspersions on people's character.

It would be like if I suggested you were a paedophile. That's not expressing a point of view.

Anyway, I can see why your boss won't allow you to use the internet during the working day.

Mb said...

There goes my Edleman bonus.

Brockley Nick said...

@MB - you'd need to spell it right too. You're fired.

Mb said...

More fool you, you've just lost Brighton Polytechnics finest product. I'll take my idea of sponsoring Brockley junkies with the "I *brockley* Brockley" brand to an agency that APPRECIATES bold thinking.

Jonah said...

Please get your Chief Content Officer to advise on responses before publication. We wouldn’t want all Jonahs to bring a class action against Danny J Diddleman.

The Big Society is growing bigger, and Edelman wants a slice, admit it. My ‘outing of a major conglomerate propaganda machine is only an attempt by the little man of Brockley to open the eyes of your readership and to cut through the fragmented clutter of ‘conspiracy’ and ‘paedo’ and ‘jobless’ negativity that the machine is currently throwing at me. Surely Danny would appreciate a guy like me.

What does a Chief Content Officer do at Edelman by the way?

Edelman speak: “Listening posts and embassies need to be built and maintained” - what does that mean? Is Brockley Central seen as some kind of a ‘listening post’ with you its 'diplomat'?

A response to these questions, after the insults and usual stooges have had their piece, would be appreciated. Let’s not fight one another with noise that can be negatively amplified both ways.

Tamsin said...

I think Nick has already answered you fairly fully. If not I am sure he has the courtesy to try to do so again. I wouldn't be so polite - go find a whale.

Brockley Nick said...

"The Big Society is growing bigger, and Edelman wants a slice, admit it."

No.

"What does a Chief Content Officer do at Edelman by the way?"

Develops content strategies for big brands. For example, creating interesting videos, like this one:

http://bit.ly/147vqt

He doesn't spend much of his time recommending to clients that they spend five years creating a blog for SE4 so that its author can spend his weekends arguing with unpleasant people.

"Edelman speak: “Listening posts and embassies need to be built and maintained” - what does that mean?"

It means that rather than talking at people with ads or relying on a puff piece in the newspaper, you create communities where brands can talk directly with their customers, like this:

http://on.fb.me/8xeyms

"Is Brockley Central seen as some kind of a ‘listening post’ with you its 'diplomat'?"

By Edelman, no. But I hope it is a listening post for the Council, for local shops and businesses and community groups - in other words, where we can discuss local issues.

You've had your answers.

Welcome to 2011 said...

I now have some very simple questions for Jonah, which I hope he will answer:

1. Do you think that other local sites, like Deptford Dame, Crosswhatfields and Transpontine are also run by Edelman? Or other rival firms? If not, why not? What is the difference?

2. Do you think that Brockley Kate, Brockley Jon and Brockley Ben, none of who are Edelman employees, are also involved in this conspiracy? Do you think their employers are also involved? Are they on a secret payroll? Or are they just innocent dupes?

3. What, in simple terms, is the business plan for Edelman here? How do they expect to make money out of this investment you think they are making? When will it start to repay them? If this site has been running for five years and someone has been paid to run it - how much do you think it has cost Edelman to do this? Which clients will pay them for services related to Brockley Central and what will those services be?

Monkeyboy said...

Now that I've been banished to the blighted zone by Grand Lizard, can I join your clique? I've been reading up, you may have a point.

http://davidickebooks.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=50

Tamsin said...

Don't despair - the Grand lizzard Overlord may yet touch you with his tentacly appendage - or am I getting a bit confused here...

Jonah said...

Welcome to 2011, I have just seen your post.

I don't like to read this site at the weekend due to the poisonous negativity it oozes. However, to answer your questions, which are quite reasonably put.

"1. Do you think that other local sites, like Deptford Dame, Crosswhatfields and Transpontine are also run by Edelman? Or other rival firms? If not, why not? What is the difference?"

I do not know as I do not have cause to read these sites in detail. I have had experience of another site, which was also connected to a pr company that I suspected of this behaviour, and this alerted me to it. (It was.) I do not know if the above are. if they are not, and I trust they are not, what does that prove?

"2. Do you think that Brockley Kate, Brockley Jon and Brockley Ben, none of who are Edelman employees, are also involved in this conspiracy? Do you think their employers are also involved? Are they on a secret payroll? Or are they just innocent dupes?"

No, I do not think that at all. A conspiacy is such an eroding word and aimed only to undermine the positon of the person making the claim; it is really used by PR people and others to deflect. Has there never been an agency that would seek to undermine the efforts of the unsuspecting for its own aims? I hope the answer in this case would be no, but I am not so certain.

"3. What, in simple terms, is the business plan for Edelman here? How do they expect to make money out of this investment you think they are making? When will it start to repay them? If this site has been running for five years and someone has been paid to run it - how much do you think it has cost Edelman to do this? Which clients will pay them for services related to Brockley Central and what will those services be?"

I will post more on Edelman's business plan, which goes beyond Brockley Central, but not to the monkeyboys and Tamsins - who are in fact MORE THAN just dupes 'hooked' on the hyperlocal. (Take it away for them and what have they got?)

On the subject of dependency? Note how Brockley Nick comments on the drug rehab unit (and others), read his 'sell' and note that he has not registered his name against these proposals. Why is tbis - because he cannot. Also, please note, the very thing that Nick has called for is for you to question these things via blogs. Question everything.

Mb said...

Where will you post this exposé on Edelman? Am I alone in seeing the irony?

George said...

Ignore the glove puppet.

"On the subject of dependency? Note how Brockley Nick comments on the drug rehab unit (and others), read his 'sell' and note that he has not registered his name against these proposals. Why is tbis - because he cannot. Also, please note, the very thing that Nick has called for is for you to question these things via blogs. Question everything."

Brockley Nick said...

What have I called for people to question? I don't remember that.

And I haven't registered my opposition to the proposed rehab centre because I haven't made up my mind about it.

Why wouldn't I be able to register my opposition, out of interest?

Also, are you going to acknowledge the answers I gave you to your questions, or carry on regardless?

Jonah said...

Why have you not registered your views - on anything - at Lewisham Council?

Brockley Nick said...

I have, thank you.

Tressilliana said...

I expect I'm a glove puppet too, but I just want to say that I think Jonah and his ilk are barking up the wrong tree here.

If Nick had really wanted to dupe us all he'd have set this site up under a pseudonym and concealed his employment. He would no doubt also have required all users to register and he would have moderated posts with a far heavier hand than he does.

I must say, I find it remarkable that when faced this drivel he doesn't just throw in the towel.

Osh said...

Jonah your answers to Welcome's questions are:

1. Don't know

2. Don't know

3. Do know but not going to say - why won't you say?

Jonah said...

I'm not sure what you mean. I do not accept your answers. Simple. Why have you never registered your opposition to ANY of the points you raise in your blogs? Why have you never registered (anything) at Lewisham Council in opposition to what you 'report'?

Cue the Malpas Mouth and Tamsin Telegraph naming 'conspriracy' in support of your defence.

Brockley Nick said...

@Jonah - if you're not going to accept any of my answers, even when supported by examples to illustrate fairly basic points, then what of the point in you asking your questions?

I'm not really sure what your latest question is, why you think it is relevant or how you think you know every detail of every opinion I have ever registered with the Council.

Are you saying I am in the employ of the Council? Evidence please. And next time I am being berated by those who think this site is too "anti" the proposed rehab centre, do please join the conversation and explain to those people how that cannot be possible because I am secretly being paid to inflict it on them (and myself, since I live nearby - unless you know better and I don't really live in Brockley at all).

Monkeyboy said...

I would post a reply but the voices in my head are telling me Antiques Roadshow is on in a minute, and we all know how difficult they are too ignore.

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