The Brockley Central debate: Do we need a CPZ around Brockley Station?

And so the time has come to address a question we’ve been scared to raise until now. But it has begun to bubble up in debates on other threads:

Should Lewisham Council introduce a Controlled Parking Zone in and around Brockley Station and Brockley Cross, similar to the one recently approved in Ladywell?

As a car-owner likely to be caught up in any Brockley CPZ, we don’t relish paying money for the privilege of parking our car. We don’t have any problems finding a parking space, but we do notice that on weekends, the local pavements empty of cars and we’d welcome any initiative that would persuade Lewisham Council to take the issue of parking enforcement in Brockley seriously. However, that ought to be a separate issue – we’ve written before that the area needs is a few vigilant traffic wardens to clamp down on local abuses.

It seems to us that the worst possible world would be for conscientious locals to shell out for parking permits, only to see the abuses continue because Lewisham Council fails to enforce the system.

Nonetheless, it’s a worthwhile debate and we’d be fascinated to see which way the weight of local opinion falls. So let’s have it. Here are the arguments for and against (as far as we can see them). Tell us what you think and please vote in the new poll, but please note the Council has no plans to introduce one and this is not part of a formal consultation - it's just a debate topic!

The case for:

On the Zone 2 borders, Brockley Station attracts car drivers from across South East London, in search of a convenient place to stash their car every day – a CPZ would not only reduce the number of parked cars in the area, it might also cut local road use

BC readers who live on nearby roads have complained that is increasingly difficult to park near their own homes – a CPZ could solve this problem, at a price

Illegal parking in Brockley Cross is a problem – a CPZ ought to be an incentive for stronger enforcement

Van hire companies that use the streets around Brockley Cross instead of paying for a proper parking facility would be forced to find alternative (legitimate) arrangements

 A CPZ could provide the Council with another source of revenue at a time when cuts are on the agenda

The case against:

It’s an additional expense imposed on many local residents in a borough where Council Tax rates are already high

On top of the expense, it’s a massive pain in the neck to have to sort out permits

It could cause displacement of parking problems on to other nearby roads

Parking is still relatively easy compared to many parts of the capital – our pavements are not full yet

A CPZ could dissuade people from shopping in Brockley because parking would become more problematic

73 comments:

Reg said...

A friend was on the train and happened to eavesdrop on a conversation between two men. One told his friend thta he had been parking in Brockley since the introduction of the ELL. He told him to keep it secret: 'Or everyone will be parking there.'
CPZed, I say.

Monkeyboy said...

Undecided, bu tbering towards yes. Frankley the exact cost wouldvinfluence my decision. Do they have to be expensive?

Mb said...

Sodding iPhone key pad. Think you get my gist. Cost please?

Anonymous said...

I don't want a cpz, I just want people to be reasonable and not chock up Coulgate street.

flyer the cars, there and say, please be reasonable otherwise will be CPZ, do not come here everyday to park all day.

Danja said...

£60pa at present.

movingin said...

If the roads are not full there should not be a CPZ. When friends family visit a CPZ area it is very annoying and expensive when they get fined. You'll find they'll no longer come unless it just runs for a minimal period eg from 11am to 4pm during the day but of course this will never happen.

movingin said...

should have been during the week not during the day.

CPZ !!! said...

Road are always full. I am a resident and always have to drive around to find parking. Since the ell started bmw and mercedez show up in the morning and disappear in the evening. Plus I see vans parked everywhere.

YES WE WANT CPZ!!!!

CPZ !!!! said...

@movingin

For friends and family you can buy daily or hourly pass. Very cheap worth few pounds.

Anonymous said...

Some of you people need to get a friggin life, how can anyone - call for a CPZ in Brockley?

Find something else to do, you are bored.

Brockley is not that type of area, it's not Catford or Lewisham those areas are busier and the restrictions are annoying enough there. Move to an area that has them if you are that bothered.

Mrs Anon said...

You need to stop drinking nail varnish remover, I've told you before! Next time I'm taking the kids...... Actually keep the kids, I'm taking the pit bull.

Mb said...

Record that as a 'no' would you Nick?

abw said...

if the problem is illegal/inconsiderate parking lobby for traffic wardens then. dont lose ur heads and ask for cpz. its a slippery slope. 2 years ago cpz charge was £30. with no notice or explanation it was doubled overnight to £60. beware of such a hasty(possibly foolish) move!!!

mintness said...

Politely asking parking space hogs to "be reasonable"? No offence, but the words "chocolate fireguard" spring to mind.

Anonymous said...

Sure those farting on here about no parking problem around the station do not live around the station. Perhaps they are those who park there when commuting to London.

If you do not want the CPZ around hilly field, just allow it around the station.

elsiemaud boy said...

Do not ask for a CPZ - we pay too much in council tax to then be taxed again. It also makes things more difficult for the local businesses and those who use the car to frequent them. I never have a problem parking the car, whenever I go down to Brockley station area.

How about just campaigning for regular visits by a traffic warden.

Miss Adelaide said...

Surely it's a no-brainer to have one in Coulgate St, at least? Those pigs who clutter the place up all day to get to a Zone 2 station can't be local. No reason we should be inviting them in for free parking, to create an eyesore in potentially a cute little area, and to make the place a menace to walk through. Begone.

Richard Elliot said...

Doesn't sound like we are in the situation at the moment where we try to get better enforcement of the current rules (e.g. tickets for blocking pavements) and push for a CPZ if that doesn't work?

I'd prefer to avoid a CPZ if possible.

Tressilliana said...

I don't have a car so wouldn't be affected. I don't like the idea of people driving over from Zone 3 and 4 to park all day near Brockley station because that's one of the reasons the road traffic is so heavy in rush hours. I think we have far too many cars on the road in London and it would be better to find ways to get those people off the roads and onto public transport for the whole of their journey to work. If a CPZ round the station would achieve that, bring it on!

Lady Well said...

Be careful of any 'consultation' from the council if they do decide to have one.
The ladywell consultation gave you the impression that the whole area would be covered by the CPZ.
Personally I voted no.
When the results came back, the council introduced the CPZ to only certain roads in that area.
Our part of the road was not included all of a sudden. So now all the CPZ traffic will park on our stretch.
Had I known they would have done that I would have voted yes.

abw said...

@ Lady Well - that happend to me when i was in Lewisham and once the cpz were established they came back for 2 further consultations and due to the now massive pressue on non cpz rds the "No" votes swung to "Yes".
@tressiliana they wont put in a cpz in one rd only it wont be cost effective. A shout for cpz in the station is a shout for cpz for all brockley.

Why is CPZ the only solution. Cant you just lobby for single yellow lines!!! That works all round lewisham stn, catford stn etc

lb said...

"Should Lewisham Council introduce a Controlled Parking Zone in and around Brockley Station and Brockley Cross"

In a word, yes. however, I'd suggest going further and banning parking along the majority of Coulgate Street, and certainly on the stretch of it opposite the station.

rachel bagelmouse said...

I live in the CPZ around Hither Green Lane... I don't have a car so haven't really paid attention to pricing etc, but recently needed to check it. I'd swear that in the last couple of years, the time the CPZ is effective has been lengthened (for no reason I can fathom, from 6pm to 7pm) and parking meter charges have shot up from 30p per half an hour to 25p per 15 minutes. It's a pain in the arse to get day / half-day permits and if you forget, you force the guy who's come to service your boiler to park halfway down the road in one of the parking meter bays.

Yes, I'm sure it does reduce excess parking (though be sure you do actually have excess parking for it to be worthwhile) and I have no idea what the area was like before the introduction of the CPZ, but it does strike me that once you've got one, it gives the Council a licence to print money.

Qt said...

Once the CPZ is introduced, the nightmare truly begins.

I would only support it, once every other option has been exhausted. I think it's a hammer to crack a nail.

In the first instance can't a yellow line be put there and traffic wardens enforce, where are our councillors on this?

barryls said...

No thanks.

TJ(O) said...

CPZs are a nightmare - why not paint some lines and put up a sign restricting parking between 9.00am and 11.00am - that would get rid of those who want to park for the day.

I live nearish to Lewisham college and during term time students take up the parking along Breaksepars and Tressillian. Sometimes I don't get to park outside my house and sometimes I have to park in neighbouring street. Inconvenient if I have a load of shopping - but nothing more than that - and I certainly wouldn't be asking for a CPZ. CPZ's lead to a lot more inconvenience - through geting passes and permits for visitors, trademen etc. Also the extra signage and pay machines spoil the look of the street.

I also think this should not be a debate along the lines of 'you should all be taking public transport, so let's make it more difficult for you to drive'. If you choose not to have a car, good for you; but don't think that a CPZ would stop the number of cars on the road.

Station said...

It is clear that also in community friendly Brockley most people apply the selfish concept of 'if it does not affect me, I do not care'

I understand that those who live around hilly fields are not affected and perhaps take advantage of the situation from time to time travelling to the station by car.

In my view Brockley Cross, Coulgate St, and all the streets leading to the station from Whickam Road on both sides of the old railway line should have a CPZ. I am not familiar with the parking on Malpas Road so I would leave to locals to make suggestion.

The rest of Brockley may not need it, but around the station it is necessary.

I would also like to see double yellows on corners and mews.

Anyone who lives near a garage knows that car are parked in places that often slow down traffic.

Brockley Nick said...

@Sation - I don't think that's a selfish attitude - if the issue were ever up for consultation, you would only expect those to be directly affected to be given a vote.

Lou Baker said...

Of course there should be a CPZ.

£100 per year, more if you drive a van, BMW or Volvo.

Daily passes available for when you have visitors.

30 mins free parking immediately outside the shops - so as not to damage trade.

Simples.

Anonymous said...

You don't live there do you Lou? Simples, indeed.

Anonymous said...

lou can't even cope with changing at Canada Water so a debate with both advantages AND disadvantages gives him a headache.

Reg said...

I did initially say CPZed but this thread has changed my mind. Or stalled my ambitions at least.

At Coulgate Street restricted parking bays, and single yellow lines would assist. (Wardens can police this for any long stay traffic other than shopkeepers or customers.)

Introduce double yellow lines on all corners of Foxberry, Cranfield, Harefield, Geoffrey, Manor Av, Wickham.

However, that said cautiously, the likely scenario will be that the drivers mentioned will move into these roads eventually. Meaning it will all be - new term - CPZeded later.

Apologies in advance if I have not mentioned West of the station, or additional roads that may suffer. (And they will. The ELL will increase its success.)

I might also add, that as bad as some of you may suggest these things may be due to cost, they do actually increase property prices due to on-street-parking provision. Not a point of interest for all, but there is an offset to the cost fo the homeowner. But is it a selling point that has value?

Tressilliana said...

Double yellow lines on corners only work if there are regular patrols from traffic wardens to enforce them. Lewisham's record on that isn't very good.

lb said...

Possibly coincidence, but since the ELL opening I've found fewer parking spaces available on my road, and I live in a part of the Conservation Area much closer to St Johns. Perhaps everyone already is parking here.

Node said...

For all those saying those who don't want a CPZ obviously don't live by the station, well I do I live about three minutes away and out of my window I see there is about 25 metres of uninterrupted empty space on one side, and my car and 3 more on the other side.

What dreamland is this you may ask? Well it's the westside, where may of you seem to not set foot in. Any CPZ here would be pointless, and if there wasn't one here but somewhere else then traffic would probs end up shunted here.

So no thanks, I don't want to pay £60 to park outside my house when I can do so for free now just because someone doesn't like cars parked in Coulgate street! Put some double yellows down if needs be.

TJ(O) said...

Tressilliana, just because Lewisham is not good at enforcing parking regs via traffic wardens doesn't mean we should give them the easy and more expensive (for us) option of a CPZ. Surely the answer is to engage the councillors about the lack of wardens?

Reg said...

Node, I think you miss the point... if there's space in your road it's only a matter of time before it's taken, regardless of what happens in Coulgate Street.

Anonymous said...

I actually caught a community support officer about to give me a ticket for straying onto a double yellow in Brockley. I had no idea they could do that. So maybe if there are no wardens about then the CSO's could do their job, they're not much good for anything else.

dt said...

No to CPZ but yes to pedestrianising Coulgate street. That area could be a great welcome to people getting off the train instead of the crowded carpark that it is at the moment

Node said...

Reg I thought the point was people who already have bad parking wanting a CPZ, not people with perfectly easy parking wanting a CPZ on the off chance it gets worse!

We have our own traffic issues like the Mantle/Endwell Road junction which is so snarled up at rush hour it puts off anyone thinking it's an easy option to park here, that and the low bridge that scalps the vans...

Foxberry Road dweller said...

Until I lived on Foxberry Road I was against CPZ....I now think that a 1 hour a day Mon-Fri charge would be acceptable as it would stop the non-residents clogging up the streets. People have taken to double parking for hours on our road and I have seen a few arguments about spaces getting a little heated.

geoffreyroader said...

Double yellow lines don't work as noone ever gives any one a ticket - i am looking at a car parked on the corner of UBR and Geoffrey road outside the garage on the yellow line and half on the pavement when there are parking spaces aplenty on non yellow line parts. It is people really, my increasing view is that we are all mad and selfish and bone idle.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

I remember some years ago there was a proposal for a CPZ near the college in the area TJO mentions.

This was voted down by the residents in favour of encouraging the students to use public transport.

I thought things had improved by not according to TJ. Maybe Tyrwhitt Td is far enough away and students can no longer afford so many cars.

My view is that you cannot logically argue against CPZs with the amount of cars on the road in London nowadays.

TJ (O) said...

I agree that we should encourage the students to use public transport rather than install a CPZ - but it doesn't seem the college has done anything aobut it. Perhaps a better option would be for the lecturers to use public transport and leave their large carpark for the students (!).

But as you may note in my original post - I don't actually have much of a problem with it, anyway

Anonymous said...

Why can't they put meters on Coulgate St that make it free for 1 hour and then very expensive to discourage people from parking there. Not sure how you stop people parking on streets nearby.

drakefell debaser said...

TM, Is Tyrwhitt Td short for the Tyrwhitt Toad? ;)

I am undecided on the CPZ. I would like to see fewer cars around Coulgate St and fewer to no vans around the Brockley Cross area but, as others have pointed out, this can be achieved, or at least attempted, by other actions which I think we should try first.


In the meantime can we crack eggs on the windscreens of the parking bandits?

Ann said...

Erm, it's REALLY important that things like that are not suggested even in jest. These people have done nothing wrong, they are entitled to park on a public road. Yes it is unsightly, possibly irritating, but vigilante style activity is repellant and illegal.

Anonymous said...

Drakefell debaser...consider yourself told off. We wouldn't want the local kids dropping their knives to pick up eggs...

HappyBrockers said...

I dont think people will actually drop eggs on people windows...

But even if they did, I dont think the damage will cause too much pain to the car owners.

drakefell debaser said...

I'll go stand in the corner for a bit.

monkeyboy said...

it would if the eggs were still in the chicken.

Che said...

Forget the eggs, it's potatoes up the exhaust you want to do to...

Mouse said...

A CPZ around the station would only push the problem of commuter parking onto streets that are slightly further from the station. Coulgate Street should be semi-pedestrianised, with access only traffic and short term parking only available. The problem is enforcement though - without the CPZ revenue to fund enforcement officers you'll get drivers parking illegally. Do the Speedicars minicabs use Coulgate St for parking?

Lou Baker said...

Controlled parking makes sense - not just by the station but the whole area.

The objectors are only complaining because they don't want to spend £60. But what's £60? 10 fewer packets of fags for them to spend their benefits on.

Ed said...

I think the vote would look different if restricted to major stakeholders (i.e. those who live nearby) rather than every Tom, Dick and Harry who uses the station and buys a coffee.

My car got keyed there again last week so would be upset at paying for such but the bloody vans, modified prestige vehicles making cash in hand deliverys (you know what I mean) and commuting tourists should not prevent locals from parking locally.

Reasonable request leaflets - hilarious.

Overall YES

P.S. Was also nearly knocked down in both directions at the crossing under the bridge today. There is alot of parking on the zigzags near the barbers and on one occassion parking for a dropoff on the zebra crossing!

I'll no doubt now be told to stop moaning like some public school gentrifier...

Anonymous said...

@Node

Congratulation for the clever argument.

One day in the middle of August you have a couple of parkings outside your home. That certainly is a valuable sample to support you opinion.

Most people just see Coulgate street but forget that on Coulgate street you can fit no more than 10 cars. All the rest are parked on the roads around the station beside the fact that for example every evening and weekends at least 5 cars block illegaly the way through Harefield Mews because the dodgy after hours garage let its client to park anywhere there is a bit of space.

time and tide said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Wakes up every day thanking god he isn't lou said...

Lou, you sound like hughs less intelligent brother.

Anonymous said...

The council usually proposes a CPZ across a wide area but takes the results of any consultation on a street by street basis.

I would think if commuters are the issue then a CPZ will have an immediate affect, as witnessed in other parts of the borough.

If the problem's shoppers or short stay vistors then a CPZ is a waste of time. Agian if it's the number of residents cars a CPZ is a waste of money.

The size of the CPZ can be important otherwise the problem just moves to the next street.

Where's the problem in buying weekly and daily permits in advance, we keep some handy, and scratch them when required.

Re yellow lines...initially there may be enough revenue from penalties to pay for wardens, but if enforcement is effective revenue will dry up.....leaving taxpayers to pay for the wardens.

Anonymous said...

Build a bleedin' car park, job done!

zigzag said...

Having read through the thread (and enjoyed a good chortle at the exchanges between 22.00 and 22.30 last night) I think yellow lines would be a better solution than a CPZ.

Though I'm coming purely from the pedestrian's perspective. I don't have a car, and don't really understand why so many people feel the need to own one when there are great public transport links, an ever-expanding car club operating locally, a decent local taxi firm and you can do all your shopping on-line and get it delivered.

drakefell debaser said...

The objectors are only complaining because they don't want to spend £60. But what's £60? 10 fewer packets of fags for them to spend their benefits on.

As Bubbles from The Wire would say… That is some weak-ass thinking son, you equivocating like a motherfucker.

Freewill said...

" I don't have a car, and don't really understand why so many people feel the need to own one when there are great public transport links, an ever-expanding car club operating locally, a decent local taxi firm and you can do all your shopping on-line and get it delivered."

Maybe because I do have a car, and don't want to use a car club, a local taxi firm or have my groceries delivered. It's choice. you choose not to, I choose to.

zigzag said...

@Freewill

Ah, now I understand. Thanks for clearing that up. Most helpful.

Anonymous said...

Yes please start a campaign for CPZ. I would like to see a vote restricted to the people living around the station. The rest have a clear conflict of interest.

I have seen recently a questionnaire about mews, why not one about CPZ perhaps???

Anonymous said...

@ Zigzag Anytime mate, anytime 8-)

it's all about house prices said...

It's very clear if you assume everyone acts in his/her own interest (not nec true but assume it for the time being..)

Those who own property want that place to be more valuable relative to the rest of London. if the "parkers" had to buy a property to get a permit to park and facilitate their lives, there would be increased demand for property around here. (evern more than currently)

THose who rent want their rents to drop and therefore prefer that as few people as possible want to live here. THis is achieved by the "parkers" being allowed to remain living in eg Kent and drive most of the way then park.

Take your pick, accordingly.

Anonymous said...

nice theory - but I am a home owner yet dont want CPZ

Anonymous said...

Van hire companies that use the streets around Brockley Cross instead of paying for a proper parking facility would be forced to find alternative (legitimate) arrangements

I used one of these companies twice recently (D & M) and found them very friendly and cheap. At the moment they are completely legitimate in where they park and provide a valuable service to people like myself, who don't own a car, and find it impossible to transport a double divan base on my bike.

Transpontine said...

My experience of CPZs elsewhere is that they are a real pain - apart from having to pay to park in your road where you can currently park for free, they also really discourage visitors. Yes, you can usually get some extra passes to give to people coming to see you, but somehow you always seem to have run out when people turn up... then there is a risk of them getting a ticket in between parking, coming to your house to pick up the pass, and getting back to their car to display them.

But I guess it depends what you mean by CPZ - you could (theoretically) have one where residents got free passes, with minimal restrictions for everybody else to discourage people parking and riding on the train (e.g. having a period between 12 and 2 when nobody without a pass can park for more than an hour).

Mb said...

No one has an issue with cheapness or friendlyness it's using the public road as their depot that causes the issue.

Anonymous said...

All that's necessary is an hour - that's enforced - in the middle of the day to catch the commuters.

Easy - get on with it Council.

max said...

Just my experience, but CPZ has really been beneficial to my road, and in more ways than one, this because it reduced traffic altogether by removing those that crawl for a parking space and this is an improvement in quality of life and safety.
I think that because of the massive increase in car ownership of the past two or three decades the rules have to be re-written.

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