Paranoid Park


I just feel like there's something outside of normal life. Outside of teachers, breakups, girlfriends. Like, right out there, like outside - there's like different levels of... stuff.

Gleaming new renders of the proposed skate area for Telegraph Hill have been released ahead of the local Assembly meeting on September 21st, which will see residents Thrashin' the issue out before putting it to a vote.

The details for the meeting are:

Date: Tuesday 21st September 2010
Time: 7:00pm – 9:30pm
Location: Haberdashers’ Askes’ Hatcham Road College (Jerningham Road site)

So what do you think, Dishdogz?

65 comments:

Anonymous said...

A little bit of New York dumped on Telegraph Hill. Nice. Not.

Anonymous said...

And they're off.....

Anonymous said...

Wow, is that it?

Wonder what all the munging from the usual detractors was about?

Build, damn it! said...

I think us mungsters were for it, it was the Daily Mail Jeremy Clarkson "allteeagerssniffglueandstabpeople" wing that disliked it

Anonymous said...

I'm sure a few of the mung were (like they are about everything that doesn't involve a cafe) against.

Headhunter said...

It's going to look damn ugly in what is a nicely restored Victorian sqaure, but if that's what the people want.... So be it.

Anonymous said...

Hmm I think it looks great. Unfortunately I can't skateboard so I'll have to sneak in at nights to practise to I don't get mocked by the kids who are better than me.

david said...

I was one of the "mungerati" that objected to the original upper park plan. On the assumption that it _has_ to go in to one of the TH parks this (to me at least) looks like a much more sensible place to put it.

Can anyone confirm that it will still be possible to walk aroun the top of the park to get from the Pepys Road north gate to the Erlanger/Kitto gate? I assume that a path will now run around the west side of the multisport court?

Anonymous said...

Parks are spaces for play and relaxation. A bit of give and take is called for. It's not a museum, it's for use by the public. 200 years ago it may have been used for executions, basket ball was a new use now we may have skateboards. Do it! Teenagers are people too!

Headhunter said...

I understand that other people have needs, I just think that with another skate park about a mile away in Ladywell (and another in Peckham?) do we really need yet another AND in a millenium project funded restored square? There's also the fact that with the park closing at dusk, the problem of kids skating on the roads after dusk may still exist. But we're covering old ground and the decision has been made...

Anonymous said...

As an Ex-BMXer whose community went through a similar hoo har during the 80's to get us kids a quarter pipe I approve of the plans. There is one potential flaw however that may just be down to the illustrations. But, In the picture the half pipe has no barrier along the ground level side, which means the skaters could effectively start their skate from the gate nearest the corner of haberdashers and whizz down the path straight onto the half pipe. (perhaps do a little Ollie and them continue along the back Awesome!) I know they're not supposed to be who could blame them if the planners have left this tempting proposition. Like I said it may just be the picture, but if I was still 16 and that's the way it was, I'd be all over that like a creme brulee.

Anonymous said...

As an Ex-BMXer whose community went through a similar hoo har during the 80's to get us kids a quarter pipe I approve of the plans. There is one potential flaw however that may just be down to the illustrations. But, In the picture the half pipe has no barrier along the ground level side, which means the skaters could effectively start their skate from the gate nearest the corner of haberdashers and whizz down the path straight onto the half pipe. (perhaps do a little Ollie and them continue along the back Awesome!) I know they're not supposed to but who could blame them if the planners have left this tempting proposition. Like I said it may just be the picture, but if I was still 16 and that's the way it was, I'd be all over that like a creme brulee.

mintness said...

We don't need a library in New Cross because there's one in Lewisham.

Dogday said...

Stretching it a bit to describe the current basketball/football court as 'a nicely restored Victorian square'! I think this is the ideal place for it, it fits nicely around the court (already the more brutalist/functional end of the park) and leaves the rest of the parks in their green splendour.

Helen said...

Won't somebody please think of the children?

Anonymous said...

I was quite good at skateboarding in my earlier years. I actually made my first skateboard out of plywood and roller skate wheels. It had been just brought to the UK, and skating was about rolling around the streets looking for new corners to play tricks with absolutely un-manoeuvrable boards. Helmets and knee protections were only for wimps; they same was said about playing in the areas pre-designed by over protective parents.
Skating was as much about roaming around free exploring areas away from your neighbourhoods as it was about meeting new people.
I agree with Head-hunter on this one, with two skating areas nearby this is just helping over involved parents to keep hold of their precious kids. I bet anything that local kids will be bored about the new skating area pretty soon, and will jump the fence as soon as their parent turn the other way.

Brockley Nick said...

I don't know how carefully you've been following the debate, but this project is led by kids themselves.

It's also aimed at younger skaters, who can't easily travel to Peckham or Ladywell on their own - not that people should have to anyway. There are tennis courts in Hilly Fields, but the Telegraph Hill courts are well-used and appreciated. What is the difference?

Anonymous said...

Are skate parks full of parents fussing over their kids? Nope, didn't think so. If there were purpose built parks when you were a lad would it be full of kids using it? or would they snub it in order to roam free over the streets of '70s london. It's not being built for you, it's being built for teenagers. Another non argument.

Tamsin said...

One will still be able to walk down from the roundabout gate to the lower Pepys one, but will just have to go round the west side of the basketball court.

The straight run down from the top is a matter which I am sure will be looked at. Skateboarding and cycling is banned generally in the Park because it is so steeply hilly that it makes either downright dangerous - at least a couple of signficant accidents involving cyclists before the ban was more clearly flagged up by the entrance gates.

The design is subject to ground survey - and it may have to be curtailed or modified if it transpires that the artificial embankment on the Pepys Road side would be de-stabilised by the planned works adjacent to it and cutting in slightly.
I hope this does not happen or it could potentially be a huge waste of everyone's efforts. The Upper Park is ruled out by weight of public opinion (as well as a few practical considerations) and the Group have not managed to identify any other acceptable site.

Headhunter said...

Nick - The thing is that a skateboard park has a very limited audience - mainly boys in their teens I would guess, so it's a fair chunk of space in a public park to dedicate to a small usage group. Tennis courts pretty much appeal to both sexes aged 8-80....

Tamsin said...

One of the reasons why it was so inappropriate in the Upper Park - quite a large footprint creating also effectively dead space around it. Here it is not nearly so intrusive, and space that could not/would not be used for anything else, other than a path, and people can walk around the other side of the ball court.

Anonymous said...

Following your logic we should then have tennis, basketball and skate boarding grounds in every green spot of the city.

... yes I am sure that 10-15 years old kids have been behind the organised campaign. Still not clear why if they are mature enough to organise such campaign, they are not really mature to walk a mile to Ladywell.

Anonymous said...

No, that's you being obtuse. This is about a skate
park in particular location, not about building skate parks in every park.

HH, so what if it's a minority sport? At what point does an activity deserve a facility? Presumably you'll be lobbying for the removal of the cricket pitch? And the bowling club fir a handful of old gits on hilly fields?

Just because kids don't want to wear Lycra and cycle every where dosn't mean they should be locked in doors.

If you live in a city presumably you like a bit of vibrancy?

Ed said...

I think we should put fewer signs up and let kids do dangerous things; the consequences will serve to educate them and their peers. Would the humans have got this far is we had always wrapped children in cotton wool the way we do these days; in my view many adolescence issues are made worse by interfering and OVERprotective adults.

Ed said...

Nick, OK so I had a boozy lucnh so maybe more fortcoming than usual but please ban these anonymi; it's pretty annoying and not a great hardship to choose a name...

Benjamin W said...

Would you enter into a discussion in the pub with a bag over your head? Perhaps, but can't people here please use a name, even if it's not their real one? That way, one can follow the thread.

Sarah said...

I live opposite the proposed site and think the plans look good. Ex-BMXer makes a very good point. A barrier should be considered so there isn't a chance of HSE shutting it down in the future. That would be a shame, as I remember a skate ramp in Greenwich park being taken away after a particular accident that occurred on a nearby path and barriers being put up.

Anonymous said...

I suppose it's too late now and the money is already committed. But given the age of austerity and budget cuts left, right and centre, would it not be better to put a halt to this project? If the money's not spent then let's mothball it. Lewisham has spent lots on parks recently - having done a good job in hilly fields and the park behind the venue. TGH park is far superior than most other local parks as it is. Surely the money could go to something more worthy like jobs.

Richard Swan said...

To be honest, the "we don't need a skate park here because there's one in Peckham and one in Ladywell" argument doesn't really make any sense. This isn't Peckham or Ladywell. It's Brockley. It's not about over-involved parents at all. My son Ben who is 13 goes skating in parks all over London, but he would love to have a local park where he can go easily without the long trek home.

Anonymous person who invented skateboards - it's the kids who are calling for the park, not the parents. The kids realise that "roaming around free exploring areas away from your neighbourhoods" is all well and good, but not a particularly practical or safe option anymore, so they want somewhere local with challenges, opportunity for tricks, and where they won't be asked to leave.

I suspect that Ben might get involved in this conversation, as he has shown an interest. Let's hear from some articulate youngsters...

Richard Swan said...

To be honest, the "we don't need a skate park here because there's one in Peckham and one in Ladywell" argument doesn't really make any sense. This isn't Peckham or Ladywell. It's Brockley. It's not about over-involved parents at all. My son Ben who is 13 goes skating in parks all over London, but he would love to have a local park where he can go easily without the long trek home.

Anonymous person who invented skateboards - it's the kids who are calling for the park, not the parents. The kids realise that "roaming around free exploring areas away from your neighbourhoods" is all well and good, but not a particularly practical or safe option anymore, so they want somewhere local with challenges, opportunity for tricks, and where they won't be asked to leave.

I suspect that Ben might get involved in this conversation, as he has shown an interest. Let's hear from some articulate youngsters...

Richard Swan said...

sorry for double post, server error!

Monkeyboy said...

...something worthy like jobs....

Ok, how about spending the money to detail the construction design and pay a builder to build it. Is that what you mean?

Everyones a winner.

We don't need no mungducation said...

There are mung bean shops in Peckham, so we don't need them here

Anonymous said...

"roaming around free exploring areas away from your neighbourhoods"

I think the Ladywell Posse and Peckham Boys would probably have something to say about their territorial perogatives being called into question by interlopers from outside their Manor.

Kids get robbed and bullied all the time in London. Having somewhere local is safer.

Anonymous said...

In future, can we refer to TH as 'the projects'?

Omar said...

I'm feeling you...

THNick said...

Should the houses on TH not be "the low-rises" in comparison to "the towers" of the BCA?

Re-up etc etc.

Bubbles said...

Thin line between heaven and here.

Headhunter said...

Richard Swan - I'm sure your kid would love to have a skateboard park on his doorstep. In an ideal there are a lot of things we would all love to have right in front of us. Ladywell or Peckham are hardly a "long trek" away. When I was 13 I used to walk about 2½ miles to school and then the same back every day.

Anyway, it's great that kids are getting out and taking up interests like skateboarding but whether we should be committing tens of thousands of tax money (at a time when spending cuts are being considered) to squeeze something into a fairly small public park when the same thing exists a matter of a mile away is debatable in my view.

Dj said...

Thanks for that Littlejohn.
I love the "about 2½ miles" bit...

slowly loosing my religion said...

Well, luckily this park is not one that you are likely to have to visit often, headhunter, assuming you know where it is? So, you don't need to get your boxers in a twist over the theft of a few yards of park for this 'damn ugly' thing intended for a 'minoity' of kids that don't know how lucky they are to have running water let alone a fecking skate park in their hood etc etc.

as above, with the following alteration said...

losing not loosing.

*this is what anger does*

THNick said...

When I were a lad, we used to work 26 hours a day down pit, thank pit owner for the privelidge, and when we came home our dad would murder us in cold blood etc

Headhunter said...

I mentioned that I walked 2½ miles to school not for sympathy or to make myself out to be some kind of hero, I was simply saying it because a 1-3 mile walk for a 13 year old is b*gger all...

Welcome to 2010 said...

Headhunter you are a man who admits to hardly ever going beyond the end of Manor Avenue, so I don't think you're in a position to lecture others on how far they should walk.

Headhunter said...

Well I work in Chancery Lane so unless I'm able to project myself virtually, I think not venturing beyond the end of Manor Ave might be slightly difficult even for me, someone who is proud to be able to walk 2½ miles

Anonymous said...

do you work in the Pink store? I think I've seen you measuring men's neck sizes...

Richard Swan said...

Headhunter, it's not the length of the walk that's the issue at all. It's the route of the walk, and the subsequent safety (or lack of) while on that walk, as already alluded to by one of the anonymous contributors... some of the dear chaps in Peckham aren't all that friendly all the time...

Ben Swan said...

I'm sorry but all this 'I had to walk 2.5 miles to get to places' is a bit Monty Python.
As Richard Swan (my dad) posted, I skate in places all around London, but I have had some nasty experiences in both Peckham and Ladywell, and they are harder to travel to then Telegraph Hill.
I wouldn't like to walk 2.5 miles to skate, because I still need energy left when I get there.
I can't wait till this opens.

Elsiemaud Boy said...

I agree with Headhunter. Also used to walk a lot as a kid - 2 miles to school - to the swiming pool etc. If the parents think the walk is unsafe, then give them the bus fare or drop them off by car. When libraries are being closed down, I think it is a sad use of money to provide something for a minority interest group that the area already has provison for. There are skate parks - they are just not at your back door.

Anonymous said...

I've heard there was a vote tonight for the skatepark.
7pm at askes.
Apparently they won't get their funding if they don't have a positive vote. :(

Anonymous said...

and yes, I've just seen that you said that in the original post!

Transpontine said...

There seems to be a highly misleading last minute anti campaign, so supporters of the plans shouldn't take it for granted that they don't need to turn up. See report at Transpontine

Anonymous said...

In what way is it highly misleading?

Anonymous said...

Seems to be detailed on the site "This is entirely misleading - the new plans envisage squeezing the ramp in next to the existing tarmac sports area, replacing a path. There will be no loss of green space. As for the 'potential problems' this sounds like code for 'keep young people out of the park unless they are on a lead'."

Tamsin said...

There's no green space being lost - except possibly a sliver where according to the hoped for plans it will dig a couple of foot into the bank - and the noise and youth menace will hardly be more than one has with the existing ball park facility that the skate board area (not really a skatepark anymore) curves banana-like around.

Anonymous said...

It seems that kids playing around on skateboards are not considered legitimate users. Really can't get my head round that complaint.

Brockley Nick said...

Transpontine, I don't agree that the posters are necessarily misleading (green space could be considered under threat if you think the park will be overrun by crazed hoodies) but I do think the antis are an utter disgrace.

A compromise solution has been found which will allow children to play near existing play areas without the loss of any green space.

Anyone voting no, in spite of all this, needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

Danja said...

I'm pretty anti in the lower park but not enough to vote against it. It would have been fine by me in the hugely underutilised upper dog toilet.

Brockley Nick said...

According to the Skate Park group's Facebook page, they won the vote tonight.

Danja said...

Fair enough, hope the users are a little more respectful than on the open day (skating down the big slide way before my 2yr old had picked himself up off the bottom of it). All those steep paths are just too tempting.

Still at least those who need to empty their dogs bowels can do so in peace and quiet.

Did you enjoy the match as much as I did?

drakefell debaser said...

A couple were having a picnic on the benches and another couple were enjoying the views when I walked through the Upper Park this evening. No dog walkers in sight and I managed to cut through the grass without stepping in turd. Some under utilised toilet huh.

Glad the vote was passed.

Danja said...

Four whole people? Wow.

I'm glad they are getting something somewhere, shame its the wrong park.

Tamsin said...

Hmm... The real shame is that SPAG would not seriously think of sites north of Arbuthnot or south of Drakefell, despite the seed-corn funding coming from the Ward Assembly for their intitial consultation and one of the main points of the Assembly process being to pull this disparate Ward together. Despite what was said at the Assembly, the residents of Somerville were not properly consulted about potential sites there - I was sitting next to one of the activists in their residents association in the second half of the meeting. (When the tumult and the shouting had died and the remnant actually could sit to scramble through the quite important discussion on where the Council's cuts would fall.)

drakefell debabser said...

Danja, the Upper Park is used by a lot of people. I passed through last night at around 7pm so it is unlikely to be teaming with people but go there a bit earlier on the day, and particularly a weekend afternoon when the sun is out, and you will see that it is not as you describe.

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