The morning after the night before

Brockley Kate reporting here ...
I've been up and about early this morning to check on the damage in Peckham, New Cross Gate and Lewisham. The general mood is of a strange normality, damage is very localised and most businesses are untouched. Particularly in Lewisham, you'd be forgiven for not even noticing. Clearly the overnight clean-up operation was a good one.
In Peckham the damage is far more extensive, but the independent shops are almost entirely untouched and shop-keepers were opening up for business as usual, and keen to greet passers-by cheerfully.

It's striking that in both locations, the vast majority of businesses with broken windows are chain stores, in particular bookies, electronic goods shops, money lenders and sportswear shops.

Here's a list of the damaged shops in each location, and some pics ...

New Cross Gate:
Curry's (looted)





Lewisham:
Game Station (broken window)
Superdrug (broken window)
Paddy Power (fully boarded up - not clear if that was a precautionary measure)
The Bridge House pub boarded up - again, probably a precautionary measure
Mothercare (looted)
Sports Direct (broken windows)




Peckham:
Payday Loans
Corals bookies
Western Union
a cashpoint was broken into
a chemist's
The Money Shop
Ladbrokes
Burger King
Poundland
Phones 4 U
Iceland
Primark
Clarks









The burned-out building on Rye Lane is now a crime scene, and the road is blocked off ...




There are a fair few police on foot patrol and guarding crime scenes in Peckham, very little police presence in Lewisham. The market traders are all on good form, full of beans and determined to make this just another ordinary day. The main thing which both of these areas need now is for people to get out there and spend some money, to give local retailers a boost and ensure that this doesn't negatively affect our area's economic future.

95 comments:

Anonymous said...

I really appreciate Brockley Central at the moment. Where else can you get up to date information on what is happening very locally ?

Citizenside said...

Hi Kate. Looks like you've captured some really good photos of the damage after the rioting. We're the world's largest citizen journalism network and we're looking for eyewitness photos like yours to show people what's happening in the UK. Would you like to share with us? Check us out on http://citizenside.com.

-Philip Trippenbach, Editor-in-Chief

Tamsin said...

Good on you, Kate.

My sister who lives in Trinidad e-mailed this morning with a concerned enquiry saying she thought she was the one living in a lawless society. I can respond with a link to this blog to inform and reassure.

Anonymous said...

Although I doubt there was much discrimination about whether it was an 'independent' or a 'chain' other than they decided there were pickings more to their liking in the shops chosen.

Either way, the shops will may not be open, the shop staff (usually at the bottom of the income chain)will be worried about their jobs if the shops do not re-open or decide to move out of boroughs like Lewisham.

Depressing but cities can and do bounce back, there are 7.5m of us after all. A few thousand (if that?) can cause a disproportionate amount of mayhem. A few idiots with a match wiped out a block of housing and businesses in Croydon.

Alingtron said...

Well done Kate.

We got up early this morning to head down to Lewisham to offer support for the High Street clean up and were intercepted by a friend telling us it was literally all done. Amazing job done by the Council and lovely to hear market traders are out there and determined not to let it impact them.

Let's hope that we don't have a re-run this evening, that would be devastating.

Anonymous said...

By 9 40 last night Deptford High St - Barclays and booking shop B & E and windows smashed...Gregg's bakery at 91 attacked (possibly because of wrong tv footage ?) and the pathetic vision of hoodies and women scrambling on the floor for the only thing there - crisp packets and bread rolls..Grim. But not having the big retailers has done us a favour

tyrwhitt ali said...

A very large thank you for Nick and Kate for keeping us all informed last night.

Lou Baker said...

I hate to say but this demonstrates how dangerous the idiots at People Before Profit are.

They put in the mind of these young thugs that - somehow - big business is different.

It's okay to target JD Sport but not the local chippy. The trouble is that JD Sport employs lots of people too. These are perfectly decent hard working folk who just do their job. And in some cases now won't be able to do that because their stores have been burnt down.

Yet the pinko prunes somehow think this is okay because it's a big company - you're not hurting anyone.

It's pathetic and it's sad. And if I see one of you little chavs trying to cause any damage where I live I'll ensure something very hard connects with your face. Something your woefully inept parents should have done years ago.

Anonymous said...

The next time someone describes the 'nightmare' of having to cross Coulgate Street with a parked car on it I shall remember this night.

Tamsin said...

The robbery at JD sports was organised on a large scale - our building's caretaker's dad lives in Sangley Road and a couple hatchbacks were coming and going in relays being loaded with the stuff taken away.

TJ said...

Poundland? Really? You'd think if you were going to risk getting banged up for looting you would want a different story to tell the other cons...

Anonymous said...

Have the police picked up the twitter photo of Currys being looted with an ACE van? Number plate is on it - surely they can trace who hired it? http://twitpic.com/633py1

Headhunter said...

Hmmm... Poundland. Just shows how brainless this is. I mean do they really need cheap bungee cords, toilet rolls, plastic containers and cheap canned goods?!

Sian said...

Can I also commend Brockley Central for their updates last night and this morning - clear, timely and important reporting, and pretty much the only place I could find local information last night.

Many thanks Nick & Kate

Chris said...

Just a quick note to say thanks to the Brockley Central guys and gals for keeping us all up to date. Much appreciated.

Sian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LondonSounds said...

I went along last night to Rye Lane Peckham to see and hear what was going on.

Photo and sound recording of people looting the Iceland frozen food store on my website here if anyone's interested:

http://www.soundsurvey.org.uk/index.php/survey/blog_comments/1447/

General impression was one of gleefulness on the part of those nicking from Iceland, partly encouraged by a crowd of excited onlookers.

I guess the proper bad boys had gone to ground or moved on by that time. The atmosphere was generally unthreatening.

Anonymous said...

The honest fare sellers have been hit far harder than the dishonest fare sellers :(

Headhunter said...

That's because your average chav rioter doesn't want organic eggs and ethically farmed coffee. They want stuff they can bung in the deep fryer or the microwave...

LondonSounds said...

Sorry, the above link didn't fit. Here's a shortened URL:

http://tinyurl.com/3wpxg72

NXG_Resident said...

Great work last night Nick with the live updates and well done for sorting out the fact from the fiction on Twitter.

I live just down the road from the Curry's in New Cross Gate and it was depressing to see empty electronic goods boxes strewn over the streets this morning. However compared to scenes in Lewisham and Peckham, the damage in New Cross is thankfully minimal.

Deptford Dame said...

Brief report on Deptford damage here. http://deptforddame.blogspot.com/2011/08/riot-damage-in-deptford.html

Hardline said...

Have a London wide curfew, and then shoot to kill.

These people need to be sent a message...

Danja said...

Yeah good idea, let's go all South American death squad on them.

Better still, nuke the whole city.

Tamsin said...

The automatic ads are an ironic counterpoint - JD Sports and Jobs in Lewisham!

RWF said...

Wouldn't nuking the city target the wrong people?

Anonymous said...

There's a strong suspicion that Iceland etc. were targeted by the mung bean elite :-(

Headhunter said...

Oops!

mb said...

Danja, I was just about to quote how efective extrajudical killing is in South America. Apparently you can walk the street dripping in gold without an issue. ;-)

Hugh said...

I saw myself on Sky news last night. Looking good, to be fair.

Anonymous said...

"It's striking that in both locations, the vast majority of businesses with broken windows are chain stores, in particular bookies, electronic goods shops, money lenders and sportswear shops. "

Maybe striking, but fairly predictable. The bookies and money lenders because they either have a personal grudge against them or think there might be money there. The others because they have the sort of things people want to steal. Most of these goods will appear at boot sales in the not too distant future.

They are chain stores because those are the ones that have what people want. The only really startingly one is the pound store.

I guess that was just hit because mob violence is infectious.

quick brown fox said...

I echo the thanks to Nick and Kate - a sterling job.

Molewife said...

I just had a call from my nursery to say they are closing at 1 on instructions from head office as 'things are due to kick off again from 2pm in Lewisham and Catford'. I am hoping that they are just being careful - does anyone know anything?

D said...

They looted mothercare?! I can't wait to see how the next generation of these idiots turn out then, being put in stolen baby clothes by their criminal parents.

Anonymous said...

I work for The World Tonight programme on BBC Radio 4. Our reporter Paul is in Lewisham today and is really keen to speak to people who care about their community. Please call 020 8624 9788.

Many thanks, Georgia

Anonymous said...

Or email georgia.peters@bbc.co.uk

Many thanks.

Fizzy said...

Sainsbury's Lee Green is currently shutting up shop

Hugh said...

Apparently the Lewisham riots were an attempt to improve the appearance of the area.

dirty old man said...

white middle-class porn

Ed said...

Hi Kate, I did the same. Some photos of the damage in East Lewisham and the town centre

Anonymous said...

Twitter folks all seem to be saying that police are clearing Lewisham as more trouble is on its way. Can anyone confirm? (bearing in mind they said the Catford cat had been stolen and the town had been totally destroyed yesterday I know people are prone to exaggerate)

Tom said...

Ironically the shop 'Loot' in Peckham seemed to have escaped unscathed

Anonymous said...

I work in Catford and have just been out. Argos has had it's windows smashed last night, the banks and shops are either closed or are shutting at 1pm. The Thames Water workmen have been told to pack up. Police vans going towards Lewisham but can't tell if anything is actually happening or if these are precautionary measures

Anonymous said...

I just came from Deptford High Street where most shops had begun to shut (the likes of both Peacocks and Housewives) and there were lots of murmurs of trouble in Lewisham. Could be hysteria, but I wouldn't count on getting any shopping done today. Stuff on Lewisham Way is starting to close too and there are two cop vans outside Tesco at Lucas St.

It would be nice to use this blog for sharing information about keeping each other safe rather than a platform to call for yet more violence (among the commentators, not Nick).

Tamsin said...

Age Concern in Catford has been told by head office to close.

And quarter of an hour ago it looked like small groups of young people moving down Lewisham High Street to the area past our office windows (but that could just be heightened awareness and paranoia).

VampGirl said...

all of lewisham was told to shut by 1 o'clock but most were shut by 12. im assuming other areas are doing it as well. and theres alot more police there now.

thenembhards said...

Thanks so much for the info! I live in nunhead, and quite reluctant to go to peckham, even though i need baby supplies!
Does anyone know if the boots or the morrisons is opened?

Anonymous said...

Anyone know if New Cross Gate Sainsburys is open?

Anonymous said...

Tesco in loampit vale is now closed, Rising Sun boarded up and many of the local shops are closing. There are a few people around who look like they are going to be up to no good.... mind you thats fairly normal!

TM said...

This is looking serious.

If the Kebab shop shuts I will go hungry tonight.....

Anonymous said...

TM - don't worry - there is an agreement amongst shops selling proper food to stay open tonight.

Delis will be shut for the foreseeable though.

Tom said...

@anonymous 13:32. Sainsburys was open earlier at about 10am, with just one shutter open, not sure about now.

VampGirl said...

according to a friend on FB there is a curfew for under 18. they have to be off the streets by 7pm but i do not know if this is true as that's the only place i've heard it. can anyone confirm this?

Reg said...

Didn't manage to make it along for the cleanup - until after it was done. Lewisham looked entirely normal, with just a few smashed windows between the shops that Kate has mentioned and detailed so well.

I did though discover that the police have told the shopkeepers to finish trading by 1pm, which Ifeel is a great shame. Isn't this just capitulation? Whatever happened to that spirit at Dunkirk

Brockley Nick said...

@Vamp - there's no curfew, but it's probably a good night to stay in and watch telly.

George Hallam said...

Since Lewisham People Before Profit has been mentioned it is appropriate that we make our position clear.

Like many inner-city boroughs, Lewisham has a set of interrelated problems: unemployment, low pay, a shortage of affordable housing, crime, despair, etc.

The claimant count in the three Lewisham constituencies is currently 11,300 i.e. about 5.2 percent. This is not as high as Tottenham which has 6,550 claimants (8.3 percent) but it is more than twice the level in the three outer-London constituencies of Beckenham, Bexley and Bromley which have a total of 4,053 claimants (an average of 2.5 percent).

Youth unemployment in Lewisham is exceptionally high at 36 percent. This poor situation is result of the policies pursued by successive governments over the last thirty years that have been destroying jobs in our inner city boroughs. The current round of cuts is only making a bad situation worse.

At the last election in May 2010, LPBP put forward a manifesto for jobs and rejecting cuts designed to reverse the destruction of the local economy, rebuild employment and improve the quality of life in a sustainable way.

Central to our programme is a huge council building programme for affordable homes for rent along with a Bank of Lewisham to support the borough's small businesses. These policies are not a ‘quick fix’: they would have to be sustained over the long-term it they were to reverse the spiral of hopelessness and alienation which threatens our whole society. However, without policies like this, it is inevitable that there will be more and more social unrest.

This programme means big changes in both economics and politics. The existing political parties are incapable of making the necessary changes: they are in the pay of the financial sector. This literally true: the Conservative Party, for example, gets half its funding from banks and hedge funds. Hence the need for new forms of political organisation that cannot be neatly pigeonholed as ‘left’ or ‘right’. Lewisham People Before Profit is such an organisation.

POTUS said...

I am confident that if all communities do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend ourselves, to ride out this storm of unrest, and to outlive the menace of wanton destruction, if necessary for years, if necessary alone. At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of every man and woman who make up the people of London and beyond--every one of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation. The people, the police, and the Government, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death this native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength. Even though large tracts of our cities and many more may fall into the grip of the Scum and all the odious apparatus of anarchy, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in the streets, we shall fight on pavements and roads, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength, we shall defend our Island nation, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight in city centres, we shall fight on every spare ground, we shall fight in the alleys and in the streets, we shall fight in the malls; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then we would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

Daniel said...

Anon - NXG Sainsburys is shut now, as is everything else in that little retail park.

Anonymous said...

Grateful for all the info on this site - thank you.

Does anyone know if the Sainsbury's at Lower Sydenham (Bell Green) or Forest Hill are still open? Looks like a bad afternoon to stock up on supplies.

Tamsin said...

Thanks - was about to go there to get yeast and flour. Only enough yeast for one baking - my children will have to eat cake.

Anyone know if Sainsbury's Lee Green is still open.

Anonymous said...

Sainsbury's Lee green is closed - I tried to go there about an hour ago.

Anonymous said...

George Hallam:

"Central to our programme is a huge council building programme for affordable homes for rent"
Funded how?


" However, without policies like this, it is inevitable that there will be more and more social unrest."
There has been significantly more unrest in boroughs such as Croydon which has a much lower claimant count. So the causality between your two statements is not obvious.

"The existing political parties are incapable of making the necessary changes: they are in the pay of the financial sector. "
You have not demonstrated this assertion is true. The communist party is not in the pay of the financial sector but, on the evidence of communist countries, it would not do very well at stopping unrest and disorder other than by sending the tanks in. Maybe there are other factors at work other than simply being in the pay of the financial sector (even if that was a factor, which I strongly disbelieve).

"Hence the need for new forms of political organisation that cannot be neatly pigeonholed as ‘left’ or ‘right’. Lewisham People Before Profit is such an organisation."
Well, so is the National Trust, and they do a good job of running country houses, but I am not sure that they should run Lewisham.

The Labour party has not done a good job of running Lewisham; nor did it do a good job of running the country over the last decade. May be Liberal/Conservative coilition should be given a chance at both - although the people of Lewisham (despite having a council which has "been destroying jobs in our inner city boroughs") probably will never give it the chance.

tamsin said...

Brill - thanks. Aldi here I come

mintness said...

As mentioned earlier, the stretch of Lewisham Way at the top end of Brockley is starting to shut down. The Tesco Express was closing its doors when I tried to go at about 1:30 - had a good long chat with the store manager, who said it was on police advice, as elsewhere. Apparently one of the windows round the side of the shop was smashed last night, but nothing else.

Went to the neighbouring food & wine place with the red signage, where they hadn't been advised by anyone but were considering closing their doors in the near future, so I assume by now it's pretty much a done deal.

Danja said...

My guess is some kids are going to get more of a battering tonight. Which will no doubt reinforce the spiral of alienation (and self pity). And there's nothing like a conviction for this sort of thing to limit your employment prospects, such as they are. Sad.

mintness said...

Meant to add - the Tesco Express on Lewisham Way will open again as normal tomorrow morning assuming no damage overnight.

George Hallam said...

"Central to our programme is a huge council building programme for affordable homes for rent"
Funded how?


This is serious. We have lost the hearts and minds of a significant section of young people. If we do nothing then the situation will deteriorate even further.

I suggest that your quibble about funding is an example of the ‘penny wise pound foolish’ attitude that got us in this mess in the first place.

However since you ask there are a number of measures that could be used:

a) Given the level of spare capacity in the building trade at the moment there is a strong case for deficit spending.
b) All British subjects to pay income tax regardless of their place of residence (this is the American practice and it seems to work very well).
c) A tax on empty properties and building plots
d) Increasing the level of tax on income over £150,000.
e) A capital level on fortunes over £1,000,000
f) Incorporating all the tax havens we administer into the United Kingdom and therefore subject to UK tax laws.


We would not need all of these to finance a building programme, one or two would be sufficient. However if we implemented all of them we could eliminate the current deficit that there has been so much fuss about.

Of course, it would take time to get things moving. If people felt the problem was pressing then we could speed up provision of public housing by requisition some of the luxury building projects that are currently underway.

George Hallam said...

" There has been significantly more unrest in boroughs such as Croydon which has a much lower claimant count.


Count Percent
Lewisham, Deptford 4,315 5.5
Lewisham West and Penge 3,597 5.1
Lewisham East 3,386 5.1

Croydon North 4,929 5.6

As Stephen Potter would have said:
“Yes, but not in the North”

Anonymous said...

This is serious. We have lost the hearts and minds of a significant section of young people. If we do nothing then the situation will deteriorate even further.

A small section of young people have lost their hearts and/or minds. "We" have not lost them and it is only a significant section because of the problems they can create.


I suggest that your quibble about funding is an example of the ‘penny wise pound foolish’ attitude that got us in this mess in the first place.

Whereas I suggest your suggestiont that funding is a quibble is an example of the problem which the Labour Government has got us into by spending far more money than we were earning.

A number of your suggestions are inflationary to say the least. The case for deficit spending, far from being strong, is non-existent and the suggestion another example of outdated thinking - spend today what we can't afford. The remainder would either damage the economy and in the long term cost more than they will raise or will not raise much in the first place.

If you are talking about a nationwide building programme, then I would like to see how the proposals even start to make economic sense. If you are talking about London's or Lewisham's
own problems, then raising national taxes or increasing national borrowing to solve them, even if it was workable, would hardly be equitable for the country as a whole.

The cuts the current government is making are necessary, and caused by the last (mal-) administration. Any whirlwind we are reaping was one the labour/socialist policies created.

The solution to the "hearts and minds" problems we have just seen should not be conflated with those of the financial cuts. There are lots of people of all ages out of work and suffering. It is a small minority of mainly young people on the streets looting.

I agree we need to improve employment prospects, but strangely enough I do not think additional taxes, more government overspending and inflationary monetary policies are the way to do it.

Bubs said...

Love the way the comments on this blog mix serious political debate with practical questions of whether Aldi is open or whether Sainsbury local is gonna be yer best bet this afternoon.,., Genius!

Anonymous said...

what about Deptford? that was on the news.

George Hallam said...

the Labour Government has got us into by spending far more money than we were earning.

Correction. The ‘mess’ was caused by deregulation of the financial system which led to a financial crisis.


Don’t imagine that I am letting the Labour Party off the hook. There was (and is) a fiscal deficit. However this was caused by overspending. It arose due to massive tax cuts.

George Hallam said...

A number of your suggestions are inflationary to say the least.


For the sake of argument let’s assume you are right.

Now which would you prefer: a bit of inflation or the collapse of law and order in our cities?

You may calculate that inflation might cause you less inconvenience than either a) being mugged on a regular basis or b) having members of you family kidnapped and held for ransom.

George Hallam said...

There are lots of people of all ages out of work and suffering. It is a small minority of mainly young people on the streets looting.

But it only takes a small minority. As we have seen.

George Hallam said...

I agree we need to improve employment prospects, but strangely enough I do not think additional taxes, more government overspending and inflationary monetary policies are the way to do it.

Well dream on. The experience of the last thirty years shows that, left to themselves, markets destroy employment prospects.

liberty said...

First of all: thank you for your coverage of SE London looting. Some of the comments have been a bit scathing, but this is understandable. I did want to contribute to the discussion about People Before Profit. The original comment, though quite harsh, seemed to be essentially saying that kids were being influenced by the idea that damage to big companies was good - that they were big and evil enough that it was OK. The comment reminded us that these companies employ people and that hurting them hurts regular working folk.

I agree with this. These companies sometimes break the law or twist it (by not paying taxes) or benefit from policies that hurt people by getting into bed with politicians (getting subsidies, protections, monopoly power) but the pain from this can sometimes (often, even) be worse if the company is nationalized: then you have only politics and no consumer sovereignty; no control or information from the customer with which to respond, or incentive to reduce prices, etc.

Someone speaking out for People Before Profit said: "Central to our programme is a huge council building programme for affordable homes for rent"
.. However, without policies like this, it is inevitable that there will be more and more social unrest."

First of all, this almost sounds like a justification for the riots -- you don't give them more council housing, they WILL riot. Why not try to change their minds, so that even without more council housing they know not to riot -- riots that are destructive to their own neighborhoods?

Second, arguably council housing - at least council estates - may be part of the problem. When the least advantaged and well off in society all live together, given at least the conditions of prohibition on drugs (which creates drug wars), resentment and violence can foment in such environments.

I'd argue that the policies of People Before Profit are likely to make things worse, if just dumped on top of current policy (although they might help if some other things were changed first) and worse, the rhetoric of People Before Profit, as pointed out in the original comment, is very unhelpful, as they seem to target and blame big companies, even though these companies do employ people, and often also reduce prices on important consumer goods--which makes wages stretch much farther and improves living standards of the poor.

Anonymous said...

"Well dream on. The experience of the last thirty years shows that, left to themselves, markets destroy employment prospects."

It shows exactly the reverse. The experience of the last 300 years (and especially the last 100) shows that socialist and communist policies destroy jobs. Capitalism creates jobs.

Anonymous said...

"Now which would you prefer: a bit of inflation or the collapse of law and order in our cities?"
You haven't demonstrated that they are alternatives. In fact, they are not. Inflation (think Weimar republic, Zimbabwe) actually leads to a far greater collapse of law and order.

Inflation is fine for those people who have spent more than they have; but for people seeking to save and invest, for those living on low incomes and for those pensioners living on past investments, inflation is a threat to their very existence.

So if all your party is offering is either to continue to have existing disobedience putatively but probably not caused by current social conditions and the sort of economic and social disaster which will occur if inflation is allowed to get out of hand, then we will very much have to live with what we have or find a third way.

Anonymous said...

"But it only takes a small minority. As we have seen."

So that translates into a People before Profit policy of: give in to the small minority, does it?

Anonymous said...

Liberty said: "the rhetoric of People Before Profit, as pointed out in the original comment, is very unhelpful, as they seem to target and blame big companies"

It sounds like old fashioned discredited socialist policy.

George Hallam said...

Capitalism creates jobs.

In economic textbooks markets always clear: a price is found where everything that suppliers want to sell is sold. That often happens in the real world markets too, but not in the labour market. In modern market economies (or ‘capitalism’ as you call it) the labour market NEVER CLEARS. There is always unemployment.

Yes, market economies create jobs, but never enough, or of the right sort.

Unrestricted trade has destroyed millions of jobs in the UK and driven down wages. A high proportion of jobs don’t pay a living wage. The existence of tax credits and family income supplements shows this. These are serious problems, especially for young people.

Close your eyes to the problem if you like, but it won’t go away.

Anonymous said...

George,

I'm still struggling with the PBP group being so closley connected with an Estate Agent. Nothing wrong with estate agents, nothing wrong with your group (don't agree with many of it's views but have no issue with the groups per se) But how do you reconcile it? They skim a profit from representing house sellers and perhaps more problematic, landlords. Lasndlords who perhaps snap up re-possessed properties. A decideldly capitalistic enterprise.

Are you entierly happy with that, it seems to undermine the PBP message.

George Hallam said...

Inflation (think Weimar republic, Zimbabwe) actually leads to a far greater collapse of law and order.


You are confusing inflation (a general rise in the price level) with hyperinflation (an extremely rapid increase in prices that causes the value of the internal currency to plummet at an accelerating rate”


The term ‘extremely rapid’ is commonly defined as more than 50% per month (Phillip Cagan 1956 The Monetary Dynamics of Hyperinflation). Another indication is the when people stop measuring the inflation rate by the month and start calculating the daily rate.

The difference is that inflation is endemic in modern market economies while hyperinflation is unusual.

And let’s not forget why inflation is endemic: it’s because stable or falling prices are bad for economic growth.

Anonymous said...

I wonder why LPBP is always so keen to portray themselves as neither of the right or left,when they are quite clearly a clumsy reformulation of old style centrist socialism? Something to do with the failure of their policies on the grandest of stages perhaps in the good old USSR?

It's utterly hilarious that they are being bankrolled by an estate agent. A fact that proves, as if their every post didn't (not to mention their ridiculous name) that they have no sense of irony, the ridiculous, or indeed basic humour. Still they still manage to give the rest of us a laugh despite this.

Anonymous said...

So George inflation is fine as long as it doesn't exceed more than 50% per month. I'll remember that, as Lewisham's pensioners might be interested to hear it come the next election.

Anonymous said...

Deary me, George, what's this?

"Of course, it would take time to get things moving. If people felt the problem was pressing then we could speed up provision of public housing by requisition some of the luxury building projects that are currently underway."

REQUISITION?

If you believe in theft on this level then I doubt you will have any problem the the 'requisitioning' of a few consumer goods that has been going on over the last few days.

You are exposed as a Bolshevik, pure and simple. Setting legality aside to deal with those who oppose your ideas will doubtless also be done with ease, and a little slippery language.

George Hallam said...

I said

"But it only takes a small minority. As we have seen."

Anonymous said...
So that translates into a People before Profit policy of: give in to the small minority, does it?

No it doesn’t.

My argument is that:
1. The vast majority of us are under pressure. Over the years this pressure has increased. Since the start of the crisis four years ago it was ratcheted up even further. Government policy is just making things worse.

2. The situation is particularly acute for young people. For example youth unemployment is about 20 percent nationally and 36 percent in Lewisham.

3. Some people, a minority, have given way under the pressure and have left the straight and narrow and taken the primrose path to drugs and crime.

4. If things go on as they have been then more young people will give way.

5. It doesn’t have to be this way.

People before Profit’s policies are designed to reduce the pressure on the vast majority. We want to develop the national and local economy so there are jobs for everybody who wants to work. We want decent wages so we can live on what we earn without the need for handouts and pay taxes to finance the public services we all need.

Our policy is not to “give in to a small minority”, it is the reverse. If employment is rebuilt than it will be clear who the layabouts and criminals are. If the jobs there were then anyone who did not want to work would stick out like a sore thumb.

Of course there is a problem with politicians who give into a small minority. But that minority is composed of bankers, financiers and moguls like Rupert Murdock.

Anonymous said...

George,
You are a reasonable guy no doubt, but history teaches your high minded and moderate sounding ideas lead to tyranny. Read some history (not published by the New Left Bookclub) and you will see how this ends. Already you are threatening bohemians and the naturally louche, who may not want to take up the 'job' you will doubtless allocate to them. How will you deal with such people? Freedom even with riots is better than what you are offering I'm afraid.

g said...

Anonymous expostulated:

REQUISITION?

You asked how we would fund our building programme. I gave a range of possible measures, all of them perfectly workable.



You are exposed as a Bolshevik, pure and simple. Setting legality aside to deal with those who oppose your ideas will doubtless also be done with ease, and a little slippery language.


Stick and stones..Though this is particular stick has a quaint, early Richmal Crompton feel.

But more seriously, all taxation is based on requisitioning. There is nothing illegal, as such, about requisitioning a building.

In an emergency requisitioning is perfectly normal. Have you never had a policeman requisition your car to pursue a criminal?

Anonymous said...

George,
More Bolshevik sophistry.
Yawn.

Anonymous said...

In an emergency requisitioning is perfectly normal. Have you never had a policeman requisition your car to pursue a criminal?

So let us get this clear a small number of people undertaking vandalism, theft and criminal damage over a couple of nights, is sufficient reason to call it an "emergency", and requisition (i.e. confiscate) people's property in order to give it to those criminals to buy them off.

This is People before Profit's policy? I can't see many people - other than those criminals - supporting it.

George Hallam said...

So let us get this clear a small number of people undertaking vandalism, theft and criminal damage over a couple of nights, is sufficient reason to call it an "emergency",


I’m not the only one calling it an emergency. Is it really necessary for me to spell it all out? The damage runs into millions of pounds and four people are dead. Shops have been shut and businesses closed early for two days running. Thousands of police were rushed into London from all over the country. A number of senior politicians have been sufficiently worried to break their holidays.

requisition (i.e. confiscate) people's property in order to give it to those criminals to buy them off.

This is People before Profit's policy? I can't see many people - other than those criminals - supporting it.


I get a sense that you are not interested in what Lewisham People Before Profit is actually proposing.

This is a pity because we are the only party that is putting forward practical measures that address the root cause of our problems.

I see that we are the only ones left in this discussion so please feel free to have the last word.

Regards

George Hallam

Anonymous said...

I see that we are the only ones left in this discussion so please feel free to have the last word.

Thank you. I will.

We are the only party that is putting forward practical measures that address the root cause of our problems.

You have not demonstrated the root causes at all. You are assuming certain root causes because they fit in with your pre-determined political beliefs.

The measures you are proposing are only practical if you do not care about the country's economy and would prefer the idealistic mantra of soaking the moderately well-off and eroding people's capital (including that of pensioners' living on their savings).

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not a pretty doctrine, particularly when Paul has just spent a few nights of petty vandalism and theft.

Name said...

Capitalism is not great, especially now with the costs to the environment becoming more apparent but it's the best system that humanity has devised thus far. So I say stick with it but mediate the ill effects as much as possible by government legislation.

Ensure as much as fairness as possible. So every child no matter their background has an equal chance to succeed to the highest levels of society.

Much of this was happening under Gordon Brown's leadership but the economic crisis and the election happened.
He was trying to end child poverty, break down the divisions in education (now we have free schools- poor man's public schools) get as many 18yrs into higher education as possible with EMA and support younger ones with surestarts and loads more but now it's sadly cuts, cuts, cuts.

I don't understand the economics of it all but I'd rather forsake the UK's AAA credit rating than experience the glimpse of dystopia that we've just had.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand the economics of it all but I'd rather forsake the UK's AAA credit rating than experience the glimpse of dystopia that we've just had.

Think Greece. Then think how much worse it can get than that. Trust me, if you did understand the economics of it all, you would not wish to plunge the country into even more of a debt crisis than it has at present - the dystopia that will cause will be a much worse experience than you have seen to date.

The current cuts are harsh medicine but the illness it is trying to cure will be far worse if the medicine is refused.

As a society we need to grow up and accept the medicine rather than complaining that it doesn't taste nice.

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