Consultation begins on further expansion of Ladywell CPZ

Lewisham Council has begun a public consultation about extending the Ladywell Controlled Parking Zone to new roads, including more of Ladywell Road, Embleton, Veda, Francemary, Phoebeth Ermine, Algiers, Arthurdon and Eastern Roads and Greatfield Close, Adelaide Avenue and Slagrove Place.

The existing CPZ, introduced two years ago, was designed to help local roads cope with traffic using the station and the hospital. However, the resulting displacement has caused problems on other nearby roads, hence the proposed expansion. The current CPZ is shown in purple, the proposed extension in green.

Thanks to Sue on the Ladywell forum for the heads up and to Ladywell Village Improvement Group for the map.

77 comments:

Anonymous said...

although i would love to see a controlled poarking zone outside my house, i hate to see them anywhere else.

no to cpz said...

complete pain

of course it won't stop until all the roads are cpz - but try visiting and finding out when you can park in a road - if obviously displacement then why not remove the first cpz - it will go on and on

moneyspinner

Anonymous said...

I live on Arthurdon Rd and haven't noticed any difference since the first parking zone came into effect. I've never had to park more than one or two houses away from my usual spot just outside my door. So I really don't want to pay £120 per year for the privilege of parking outside my own house!

Also I don't really like the idea of extra bays / signs and more importantly traffic wardens walking up my street all day!

Another excuse to grab cash. No thanks.

If you're in the proposed extension zone and agree with me, then please fill out and return your questionnaire, otherwise we'll find this slips through

CPZ Brockley said...

Waiting for the Council for a consulation around the station...

Not sure why Ladywell always get a better treatment.

taxed said...

We in Brockley do not want cpz. It is because Brockley is a wonderful place that we don't have cpz. We are relaxed about cars, it's people who have recently moved here from other towns where cpzs are rife, who believe that one should be here.

MalB said...

"However, the resulting displacement has caused problems on other nearby roads, hence the proposed expansion. "

Of course it will. And the new expansion will cause problems outside this CPZ, so it will expand again. Until everybody has to pay money to the council just to park where they used to park for free.

It is not for me to say what the Ladywellians should want, but for those who don't want one - residents fought against two separate proposals for CPZs in Telegraph Hill and got the Council to back down on both occasions when the surveys (and we insisted on a house-by-house survey) showed that the majority did not want it.
Mind you it required a co-ordinated campaign to get people to fill in the questionaires.

Somebody also needs to make sure the Council is not only consulting the houses within the proposed CPZ but all those around who might be affected by the displacement it will obviously cause.

Anonymous said...

Currently people come into our area and use it as a massive free outdoor car park, then take the train into the city. We pay more for our houses because they are supposedly more conveniently located than those of the parkers. Parkers bring nothing to the area in terms of expenditure, support no local businesses and pay council tax power than ours elsewhere.


Is any of this fair?

TJ said...

Extending this along Adelaide Avenue is ridiculous - not only is parking not a problem there, but there is also a busy doctor's practice - and the infirm and less able can currently park nearby.

Also Anon I cannot belive that anyone parks on Adelaide Avenue and walks to Ladywell Station (zone 3!) to go to work.

Ladywellians - resist this extension - the council are strapped for cash and out to make a bit more the 'easy' way.

Lady in the Well said...

I live on Chudleigh Road and unlike Arthurdon Anon @16.51 I have noticed a huge difference since the first CPZ was implemented.

Originally I voted against it, as did my immediate neighbours, however the part of Chudleigh Road closest to the station must have voted in favour and it was implemented in just a small section of the road. This means my house (being just outside the cpz) suddenly became the best place for commuters to park. Now I often can't park anywhere near my house at all and have to park 2 streets away which isn't ideal with a baby, a toddler and a load of shopping.

I disagree with the whole thing and yes, displacement will simply cause it to keep spreading BUT I can't help being so fed up of dragging my kids and baggage through the rain because I can't park anywhere near my own house that I think sod it, I'll end up throwing my principles out the window and voting in favour.

What I have HUGE objection to is after I've paid £120 for a permit I'll then have to pay every time someone wants to visit me! If someone comes to help me with childcare it will cost me over £5 a day, any builders or workmen, likewise. If I have 3 friends over (which isn't unusual) that's another £15 and so on.

Why can't they do what they do in Blackheath and make zones which are no parking between the hours of e.g. 9.30-10.30am unless you are a resident. This would get rid of all the commuters and not penalise residents by forcing them to pay for visitors. It would also be better for business owners in ladywell who will surely be disadvantaged by the CPZ.

Pretty annoyed from Ladywell said...

There has been no problem parking in Veda Road and although we do have parking from the local shops and some Lewisham hospital staff (who then walk through Ladywell fields!) there is enough parking space for residents. I really strongly object to having to pay to park outside my own front door and more to the point will have to additionally pay for visiter permits when I need work done on the house. There are also major implications for elderly and sick neighbours who need carers and visiters during the day. Please Vote NO everyone.

Lady in the Well said...

I'll just tell all my visitors to park in Arthurdon Road, they have lots of parking spaces there ;-)

MalB said...

Why can't they do what they do in Blackheath and make zones which are no parking between the hours of e.g. 9.30-10.30am unless you are a resident.

Simples. We asked the same question when one was proposed in Telegraph Hill. The answer from the Council is that unless they made it full time they can't get enough revenue from the parking fees to pay for policing the scheme, emptying the meters, maintenance etc.

MalB said...

Anon said, to justify a CPZ:
Currently people come into our area and use it as a massive free outdoor car park, then take the train into the city.

Anon, make sure this is true before you use this argument. That's what people said about New Cross Gate when a CPZ was proposed in Telegraph Hill. But as far as we could tell when we did a survey, this was just wrong.

Almost all the cars parked during the evenings (when there was no space) were residents cars. Virtually every single one. During the day there were some non-residents, but not that many, and generally there were some parking spaces available then in any case. Some of those non-residents would have been visitors to residents in any case - not of that relatively small number would have been commuters.

I'm not saying you are wrong. But offer to a survey for the Ladywell Society and check the facts unless you are certain you are right.

no to cpz said...

It is vital that everyone who does not want cpz fills in the survey. The apathetic vote causes mayhem. The results are not a percentage of all of the properties affected but of the percentage of forms returned.

For example if 100 houses included and only 20 people are interested in the cpz and 10 who are not return the form - then the consultation says the majority want a cpz - that is the majority of the form returners not the majority of residents.

No to CPZ! said...

and in a nutshell this is the problem with 'democracy'...

CPZ Brockley said...

The argument about people visiting is really poor. If you live near the station why don't they just take the ELL or a bus.

CPZ near stations are a must. Commuters only come to brockley if they can park near the station. If they have to walk for 15 minute after parking they will go somewhere else. Therefore the spilling issue would be very diluted.

Tamsin said...

"The results are not a percentage of all of the properties affected but of the percentage of forms returned."
And apathy will still rule. With one of the Telegraph Hill leafletting campaigns the THS contrived to double the form return rate from the usual 3% of residents to a massive 6%. Most people just don't care.

"If you live near the station why don't they just take the ELL or a bus."
Because they're old, infirm, have luggage or children or both, can't readily manage the interchanges, live some distance from their station of origin and are reluctant to shell out on parking there plus train fares. All sorts of reasons.

If a CPZ is necessary, the answer - as in Blackheath or Bromley - is restrictions near the station for a couple of hours in the day, but that would be the Council providing a service at a net loss, rather than making money out of the scheme.

Darylh said...

This is such a revenue grabbing exercise - Resident's parking permits are £120 a year. A quick count of the cars on Arthurdon Road where I live, would indicate that the Lewisham council is going to make between £7,500 to 8,500 a year from my street alone. Plus £5.60 a day when friends visit. Oh and those nasty fines that are sure to follow. I am voting no.

PK said...

Can't wait for it to come in! Will make a massive difference to the road I live in and the one running parralell.

Anonymous said...

I live at the top end of Brookbank Road and parking is already a massive issue up here, especially with the ridiculousness of the 484 squeezing down it. I dread the idea of this extension. I either want to be in the cpz or have one no where near, being just outside one is going to be a nightmare.

CPZ Brockley said...

@Tamsin - "Because they're old, infirm, have luggage or children etc "

You are describing such a minority of cases. They are old and infirm but happy to drive?!? Have children and can't take public transport ?!?

How many times a year does this happen, and what percentage of residents are in this situation.

These are they same people that happily take public transport when they rush to airports for school breaks or to take their children to see Lion King in central London.

Brockley is very well connected and people should just use public transportation more.

The issue around the station is with daily commuters that park their cars and vans day and night because it is the only station in Zone where parking is free. This applies also to those brockley resident that take their car to the station.

Anonymous said...

CPZ Brockley. It is not a poor argument, people visiting might be a family coming from a great distance, Scotland for instance, have you looked at the price of train travel recently? It is for more economical to drive with a large family and you can bring more luggage. Or perhaps you are delivering a large piece of furniture for a friend. I do think people should use public transport whenever possible but you do seem a tad hypocritical to want to use your own car and have it right outside your house, do you use public transport whenever you visit people?
I think CPZs are just a money spinner for the Council and should be resisted.

Lady in the Well said...

Those people suggesting that visitors with children should take public transport will be the first to complain about noisy brats on trains taking up all the seats that they have paid full fare for!!

And have you ever tried to single handedly get a toddler, baby, buggy and a load of bags on a train? No.. thought not.

Lady in the Well said...

@MalB.. How come Lewisham Council can't get enough revenue unless it's full time but Greenwich and Bromley councils can? That's a genuine question.

Anonymous said...

I'm in principle against CPZ unless the council reinvests the profiit into the local community( that would be brockley and not the wider borough)

Anonymous said...

how will this affect the businesses in ladywell village? I think the CPZ will deter people from coming to the cafe, deli, Post office, hairdressers etc. They will go elsewhere such as Lewisham (cheap and plentiful purpose built parking) or East Dulwich and honor oak (free parking albeit on residential streets and the main roads). I would imagine (but obviously don't know) that the number of commuters parking near Ladywell station is relatively small (zone 3 service, trains are also less frequent than those at Lewisham)..they are more likely to go to New Cross Gate or brockley. The main parking problem in ladywell is due to the hospital but the CPZ will affect the businesses without a doubt.

say No to spreading cpz virus said...

The reason that ladywell roads were being filled up with parking for lewisham hospital is due to the cpz in catford and lack of parking for hospital staff and visitors.

Cllr Vincent Davis said...

I haven't owned a car for some years now and before I was elected as a councillor in Ladywell last year I gave very little thought to parking issues.

London is very well served by public transport links, and I have for the most part got by very well using public transport for travelling to work, going to the shops and for evenings/days out.

However, I may shortly become a car owner again, as my partner and I started a family this year as it is not always easy to navigate public transport with a baby.

I understand that a CPZ is a blunt instrument and it may have unintended consequences, but one has to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages. If you are having work done in your house you will have to factor that into the costs. If you are having visitors you may have to make a decision as to whether you pay for their parking or ask them to pay themselves. They may also be able to come on the bus or walk, depending on their circumstances.

But I should think, if I lived in a road which was badly affected by commuter parking and I struggled to find a place to park outside my own home, with a child and a push chair and bags of groceries to bring in, then I wouldn't mind paying £2.30 per week (£120 per year)to be able to park outside my own house.

The council does not actively seek out opportunities to extend controlled parking as a means of raising revenues. Indeed it is quite reluctant to do so. The existing CPZ in Ladywell was introduced after years of campaigning by some Ladywell residents. I presented a petition to the council in March on behalf of many residents of Embleton Road asking to be included in an extended zone.

The council is carrying out two consultations in Ladywell, one for residents in the existing zone and another for residents in the proposed extended zone. If people want their views taken into account it is vitally important the respond to the questionaires the council is circulating.

I have noted that the official questionaires do not ask about hours of operation, which I know is a bugbear for many, so respondees should not be shy about writing in their own comments (use a seperate sheet of paper if necessary).

And, like the petitioners on Embleton Road,there is no reason not to knock on your neighbours' doors, asking them to vote one way or another.

It's up to local residents in the affected areas whether they have controlled parking or not. But I do ask everyone to respond to the consultation. We need as high a response as possible if the consultation is to accuratley reflect the views of the local community.

Lady in the Well said...

@ cllr Vincent Davies.

Firstly thank you for being honest in your reasons for getting a car!

Can I ask, what is the justification for the high costs of visitors parking and why can't a resident paying £120 per year for a permit expect a certain number of visitors permits to be included within that? If the purpose of a CPZ is not to gain additional revenue then how can these ad hoc costs be justified?

I fear all that will happen is people will tell their visitors to park in neighbouring streets that don't have a cpz.

I agree that CPZ is a virus!!

say NO to spreading cpz virus said...

Having a cpz outside your home whatever the cost is not a guarantee of parking, it just means that you are paying to park where you used to have the opportunity to park for free.

Anonymous said...

To Cllr Vincent Davis:

I live in Shell Road. When the first consultation occurred, I opposed the CPZ but told my view does not count as I was not in the proposed zone.

BC states you have opened a public consultation on this, however your comments above indicate my view will not be taken into account again as we are not in the existing or proposed extension.

Well, this is not fair as Shell Road will become the closest "free parking" street if the extension comes into effect. This affects us and we deserve the right to be consulted. I have a 2 month old daughter and many of my neighbours also have small children.

There are many reasons for and against owning a car in Ladywell. We have great public transport (except when it snows) but that is not really the issue is it? Sometimes you just need a car and the sums for renting a car or joining a car club just don't add up or justify themselves. For some people they do, for others they don't. This is not what the CPZ is about.

Why are the council consulting now on extending the CPZ?
1. They want to generate more revenue? (I actually think this is not their priority and naively or not, think they don't inherently want to do this).
2. People on the periphery now complain about parking and want to be included so they can easily park in front of their house again (this will just push the problem out to Shell Road and beyond. In 6 months we will all want to be included!)

Anonymous said...

What are the options?
1. Scrap the existing zone. (well, with the construction of all the lovely flats on loampit vale, and even more going in with the building containing my favourite Chinese shop, good view noodle house, going to be turned into high rise flats and even more at the abounded industrial estate, part of the conditions is residents won't be aloud a permit for the local CPZ. Hence a CPZ is needed or else they will all buy cars and park for free in all our existing parks. People moan about all the hospital parking but think about this which is real and what will happen if Lewisham gateway ever happens)
2. Extend the CPZ. (This will only need to be extended again and again)
3. Extend the CPZ and reduce the operationsl window. I.e 10am to 2pm or even smaller. Thus will still prevent the new builds from parking and prevent the commuters. Surely this is the whole point of this CPZ?

Finally is the cost. How much was it when it was first introduced? £60. The council doubled it. It is now £120. This is not going to decrease. Why should we pay this? Because the CPZ has to pay for itself.

Well. If only a small operational time it is quite easy just to do one sweep of the area and ticket anyone without a badge. This would need about 2 people. When people get the message, as they will. 1 person could probably do 1 sweep and that would be all that's required. If your charging £120 a household it doesn't take many houses to pay the annual salary of one parking officer does it? It is all it would take.

Let alone the current injustice of vidtor permits for builders or occassional visitors. It has never been a problem fir existing houses on our roads. Why make it our problem?

By all means extend the CPZ. Stop the new builds having a right to park, if you buy an apartment in one if these blocks you should not expect one other than what the planning permission provisioned for your build.

Don' charge residents £120. Reduce the operational time if the zone to make it impossiable to leave your car unattended for the day. Take the salary of however many officers you deem necessary to police it and divide thus cost out against the affected houses. This pays for itself and achieves the benefits of preventing hospital, new build and commuter parking. I would think this would only cost each house £50 or so maximum.

Provide each household with some free "scratch and win" visitor permits included within the £50. Say 10 or so per year. Allow residents to apply for a long term parking permit for builders or workmen for a nominal fee (not 5+ pounds a day) and allow application for a free permit for special needs/careers etc if frequently required.

Problem solved?

Anonymous said...

Appologies for typos. Was written on my iPhone and hard to review/edit.

Anonymous said...

Oh - forgot. Provide 1 hour free parking bays in the design for the ladywell well road widening by the shops. This would allow people to shop. Extend a catford parking officers patrol to include the main road.

Ricky said...

I agree with anon from Shell Road. I live at the top (west) end of Brookbank road. According to the map you've posted, the proposed extension would cover another stretch further down our road, leaving us even closer to the edge of the CPZ than before. Like Shell road residents we weren't consulted first time around and won't be consulted this time.

Before the CPZ parking was quite alright. These days it's mostly fine. occasionally we have to park round the corner but I find that acceptable. But I fear the new proposal will cause havoc at the mini roundabout at shell/Brookbank road. the 484 bus already struggles to get around the corner when cars are parked on the end of the road (i've seen cars have their wing mirrors clipped off and bus drivers having to reverse to try taking the corner again). Displacement from an extended CPZ will only make this worse.

When you're talking about roads this far out, it has nothing to do with people parking up and using ladywell station. i've lived here 5 years and not once seen anyone park and walk off down the hill to the station. No, the only people parking on our road are residents and other residents trying to avoid the CPZ.

sid said...

Shouldn't it be the Council doing the door knocking,and not the residents.

Tamsin said...

The council can't afford door-step knocking but shouldn't it design a halfway decent questionnaire? Cllr. Davis has pointed out the defect that it does not ask about hours of operations.

However it cannot be as bad as the original Telegraph Hill one - thousands of copies of a full colour leaflet asking "Do you want to be consulted on a CPZ?" To which both those in favour and against would logically answer "yes". Apparently when it was drafted the person doing the job asked a fellow worker if it was OK and then went ahead with the print order.

And if you are printing several thousand - do a few thousand more and cover the adjoining streets as well.

Ian on the Hill said...

CPZs are a complete waste of time. The real reasons for most CPZs (I exclude safety areas like schools)are (a) making money for the council, and (d) trying to make driving so unpleasant that we'll stop using cars out of sheer frustration.
Well, frankly I don't want to be extortionately taxed to park on a pubic road and CPZs increase congestion and fuel usage. Total and utter waste of space.

Anonymous said...

I live on Fossil Road, and every day there are at least a couple commuters who park here. Can't identify other residents though. The rest of the spaces are taken up with builders in reflective jackets from the development in Loampit Vale.

MalcB said...

Cllr Davis:

You say: "It's up to local residents in the affected areas whether they have controlled parking or not. "

It depends what you mean by "affected areas". If you are just consulting within the proposed extended CPZ area you are not consulting all residents in areas which will be affected by the CPZ.

As has been acknowledged a CPZ has knock-on effects on the surrounding area because of displacement parking.

Does the consultation the Council is carrying out include all those residents as well?

If not, the Council is prioritising one group of residents over another without consulting them. That surely isn't morally right?

TJ said...

I can't belive that a local councillor is supporting this - look around, times are tough, people are trying to make ends meet. It's no good saying that this will only cost an extra £2.50 odd a week, and you should factor in the costs for trades people in the price of the job. The council is going to be taking extra revenue, above and beyond the council tax, for people to be able to park outside their own house. This is NOT a priority in these times - and those who are asking for it are obviously those most able to pay.

Also Cllr lets be clear - this is an extension of the zone - so after the infrastructure is in place the same team of people can be used to run this. This WILL generate income for the council.

patrick1971 said...

"Sometimes you just need a car and the sums for renting a car or joining a car club just don't add up or justify themselves."

How could it end up being more expensive to be in a car club than owning your own car?

"times are tough, people are trying to make ends meet. It's no good saying that this will only cost an extra £2.50 odd a week"

If you can afford the luxury of a car in central London you should be prepared to pay for it. The number of people who are selfish enough to have a car never ceases to amaze me. The road in front of your home is not your property; you don't have a "right" to park on it. It's a common amenity and anti-social activities such as driving (belching out toxic fumes) and parking (blocking the road for other users, making it less safe for pedestrians) should be taxed, and heavily.

NAT said...

I live on Sandrock Road, and though we have a certain ratio of daytime parkers using St. Johns, at the moment, this works quite well, as they only occupy spots left vacant by people taking their cars to work.

I expect all this to change when the Loampit vale development is complete and we suffer the consequences of a development for upwards of a thousand people with no parking facility, and furtermore when we must provide displacement parking for the new nearby CPZ's.

May as well colour all remaining spaces on the map with a colour to indicate 'CPZ post 2011' as this scam rolls out across the borough.

taxed said...

I love having a car I think public transport is ropey at best, dirty, feeling safe is an issue at bus stops and on the bus despite loads of cctv. However if I was given a travelcard for life I'd give up the car.

Fidgad said...

The only solution is to make the entire borough a CPz and give all residents a permit.

That way all visitors have to pay but we can all park somewhere near home.

Durrrr said...

"ropey at best, dirty, feeling safe is an issue at bus stops and on the bus despite loads of cctv"

Do you live in London? I use it every day and do not recognise the picture you paint. I pay tax too by the way so not really sure what your point is, public transport delivers benefits to every one even if you never use it. A complex though I know.

Algiers Road... said...

Since the CPZ was introduced it has made parking in Algiers Road a nightmare, not only do we get the train commuters we also get the residents from Viars Hill ect who do not want to pay for their permits. I have at times had to sit at the end of the road on a double yellow line waiting for a space just so I can go home 50 yards away, It is HELL bring it in ASAP. PLEASE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ratty said...

Agree with Algiers. Ermine full of commuters. You see them scouring the roads from 6am onwards. Even saw one trying to park in a space with a skip hanging over it the other day!

Tamsin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Danja said...

MalcB - is it any more "morally right" to allow those who will only be affected by displacement issues to deny others who are bearing the brunt of present parking difficulties the right to vote themselves into a CPZ if that is what they want to do?

Those people are always going to prefer the status quo, where they don't have a problem because it is someone else's.

A bit, one might suggest, like the difference between the top and bottom of TH. Not that it affects me, as my predecessors put in off-street parking. Although it would be aesthetically a nice thing to do, I will never reinstate the front garden because between commuters and bus drivers, on-street parking is just too inconvenient.

Tamsin said...

A CPZ does not necessarily mean you can park near your home - you just feel much more aggrieved when you can't. At the Telegraph Hill public meeting called to debate the issue when it aros (with a very neutral notice - neither for nor against because the Society did not know at the outset what the feeling would be) I vividly recall someone who had moved to the area from where there was a CPZ said that she loved the happy-go-lucky result of not being so territorial. Cox and box with the spaces, those driving to work (for whatever reason), making way for a little bit of commuter parking. Mostly you can park in reach of your home but sometimes you have to accept that you can't. The situation described by NAT as currently pertaining in Sandbourne Road.

I acknowledge there are problems in the roads immediately adjacent to stations - to be met most fairy by a CPZ limited to a couple of hours during the working day. No need for these to be the same two hours during the day throughout the borough, so the same team of traffic wardens can patrol one area 9-11, another 11-1, a third 1-3 and a final beat 3-5.

Arguably, perhaps, the answer for Algiers is not to extend the CPZ, but to revisit the mechanics of the exisitng one on which this road was presumably not consulted.

At Danja - agree totally about the difference between the top and the bottom of the hill and the problems around the bus garage which have been extensively debated elsewhere. But this is just a sympton of how blunt an instrument the Council's "consultation" always is. They only seem to be able to deal in whole roads - as a quick look at the map at the head of this thread shows. The CPZ is hardly being created in concentric rings around the station. This is especially daft when, on a long road like Algiers or Pepys, the situation at either end is completely different. And totally unnecessary when there is the more refined tool of postcodes readily available. This would enable a consultation to take place on areas within a certain distance of the perceived problem generator - whether station or hospital or large development without parking spaces - and also a much better analysis to be made of survey responses.

Danja said...

It isn't simple either way, as this thread demonstrates, because allowing a nuanced localised approach runs stright into Malcolm's point about displacement and the effect on neighbouring roads.

But those who say that is a reason to have no CPZ at all are really just saying that it's OK for others (in this case next to Ladywell station/etc) to bear the burden.

oddy said...

I've noticed that even with off-street parking, there's so many cars where I live that increasingly often you'll fin cars parked half/part way over the drive. And delivery drivers and cabs with hazards on reluctant to move to let you into your own home. Modern life...

Anonymous said...

I also agree with *Algiers Road", it is really bad in Algiers Road... either you join it or become a victim of it.. the question of parking is really affecting our quality of life.

Anonymous said...

Patrick 1971:

"How could it end up being more expensive to be in a car club than owning your own car?

"times are tough, people are trying to make ends meet. It's no good saying that this will only cost an extra £2.50 odd a week"

If you can afford the luxury of a car in central London you should be prepared to pay for it. The number of people who are selfish enough to have a car never ceases to amaze me. The road in front of your home is not your property; you don't have a "right" to park on it. It's a common amenity and anti-social activities such as driving (belching out toxic fumes) and parking (blocking the road for other users, making it less safe for pedestrians) should be taxed, and heavily."


Patrick, a CPZ is NOT about whether it is right or wrong to own a car. I understand the reasons behind your views on cars, their green house gases and probably wanting to listen to the birds singing without planes flying overhead on your cycle trip to work on car free roads.

I respect your views, however I don't share them to the same passion you do. This does not make me wrong.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A CPZ

In reply however, a car club or renting a car is a hassle factor. For a bachelor/spinster or professional couple this could all be well and good. For others though it is not practical to rent a car.

Our cheapest/nearest option is probably Enterprise Cars on Lee High Road) You have to collect it and return it during during set times and it can take an hour to check the car out with a queue of people. Let alone getting there and back with small children in tow.

A car club is no good for frequent trips to Sainsbury's/Tesco's or the nursery/school run and visits to friends and family throughout the country that would require multiple changes. Time is short and you need to get in and go!

I admit the only reason I own a car is because it is convenient to have one in my situation.

Yes I could have my shopping delivered to my door (with less choice and the substitutes that always come with it). I could have my Wickes and B&Q orders delivered at a price (apart from those only available in store). I could pack up the family and walk/take the overly packed bus that goes on past because I have a buggy and it is full, to nursery. I could navigate trains, tubes and commuters with multiple stops to get where I want to go.

I pay road and petrol tax, so I do have right to use the road (and road taxes/petrol taxes pay for more than roads! They pay for other parts of society also). I live in a 1st world country and owning a car assists in providing the quality of life I want.

Car ownership rights/wrongs has nothing to do with a CPZ.

taxed said...

Durrr you standards of online manners are probably as low as standards for public transport so not surprising that you don't see things like I do.

btw everyone is taxed durrr...it's just a name to avoid being an anon, ok?

NAT said...

@anon 18:27 A distinction worth making.

Anonymous said...

taxed @ 18:54:

I think you will find my comments were not insulting. I respected your view and offered a different point of view based on my experiences of using public transport and rentals. Some people vote labour, others vote conservative. Some people read left leaning newspapers, others read right owning newspapers. We are not all the same or live in a communist state, but to the CPZ topic at hand:

As NAT 19:10 pointed out... a distinction worth making; that the car ownership debate is a different topic to the merits of an expanded CPZ or not.

For the record however, I use public transport and walk as much as I can. I prefer walking to Blackheath or Greenwich. I use it to get to and from work. I use the train/DLR to go into central London. I don't use pubic transport to do things it is inconvenient for.

If we want a family day out in rural Kent or visit a small village for a walk and sunday lunch will use my car and be richer for the experience.

Anonymous said...

Interesting that many of the people I see here writing against CPZ do not live in the roads near the station affected by commuters and vans.

The synthesis of your thoughts is that although you recognise that those living around the station have a problem, you oppose CPZ because the problem might spill onto my roads.

In fact, CPZ is voluntary and implemented only if a clear street by street majority is in favour. So you really run no risk of seeing a CPZ being imposed to your street if you vote against it.

Selfishness acknowledged form the same names that often praise the community feeling of brockley.

Tressilliana said...

There's no doubt it is extremely convenient to have a car - for the car owner. But having the roads full of cars, both parked and moving, causes lots of problems for pedestrians, cyclists, bus drivers and passengers, people who have no choice but to drive to carry out their jobs, the emergency services, disabled people who can only get about in a specially adapted car and so on.

I can see no reason whatsoever why somebody who drives to a local station when they could walk or cycle there should get free parking.

I think parking on the street is a privilege and I would support a fairly low annual charge for all inner London residents that would include generous quantities of visitor permits and permits for deliveries, builders etc.

If it discourages those who could manage quite well without a car, that would be a good thing.

taxed of embleton road said...

I imagine a lot of people would agree with cpzs in principle, after all why should commuters park for free etc. But it is the practice of cpzs, cpzs in reality that many including me can't abide.

For the price to go 100% to a not insubstantial £120 a year plus the apparent economic inflexibility of the controls, to make commuter parking alone less attractive and not result in the hassles for residents visitors- especially workmen & the stress of getting a parking notice & so on.

It just makes the scheme not seem about parking controls but revenue generation.

I think this ties into the erosion in confidence of councils by residents to do the right or fair thing. There's an underlying feeling that they, councils and politicians are 'on the take', thinking of ways to fleece us, 'rip off Britain' by stealth; "a cash grab" as someone wrote earlier.

With many of us on pay freezes, NI hikes, VAT up, fuel high, utility bills rising, this is on top, & not even a guarantee of parking outside your home is too much.

Tamsin said...

And what no-one has commented on so far is the issue of adding to the clutter of street furniture. Every single set of parking bays, i.e. each little run punctuated by gaps where people reserve their access to off-street parking and gardens converted to hard-standing, has to have its separate post with a metal notice of what the restrictions are. And, of course, white lines all over the road as well.

Another thing often raised in CPZ debates, although I am not sure what the actual facts are, is the concern that introduction of a CPZ might encourage more front garden conversions to hard-standing. Won't be applicable to those streets within the Conservation Area but the proposed CPZ goes beyond that - and Ermine Road, one side is within the CA and one side not.

Headhunter said...

"I pay road and petrol tax, so I do have right to use the road (and road taxes/petrol taxes pay for more than roads! They pay for other parts of society also)."

Actually, as we have discussed here numerous times before, "road tax" hasn't existed since 1936 or 1937 and since that time has NOT paid for roads. Just as "alcohol tax" does not pay for pubs and "tobacco tax" doesn't pay for the NHS.

"Road tax" is in fact a tax on emissions called VED, drivers of electric cars like GWhizz and VW Blue Motions do not pay VED (even though they do produce emissions).

Local roads are paid for by local council tax paid by everyone. Major national roads like motorways are paid for from national taxation NOT by VED. "Petrol tax" is the same... These taxes pay for anything from weapons to schools to policing and do not give motorists rights over other road users.

Fortunately we do not have a system of taxation in this countries which allow people to demand specific allocation of taxation they pay.

Tamsin said...

Must say that I've just been down Malyon's Road for the first time since the CPZ was introduced. A very perceptible difference. Those who drive to work have set out and not been replaced by commuters from Ladywell coming in.

Anonymous said...

"Fortunately we do not have a system of taxation in this countries which allow people to demand specific allocation of taxation they pay."

Only a matter of time...

say No to CPZ virus said...

Tamsin said...
Must say that I've just been down Malyon's Road for the first time since the CPZ was introduced. A very perceptible difference. Those who drive to work have set out and not been replaced by commuters from Ladywell coming in.

Yes but you couldn't park in Malyons road could you?
Also would you know from the signs and 'street furniture' when you would be allowed to park when it's all coded.

It is a 'dead end' road and was heavily used by hospital staff and visitors who cut across the park to the hospital also - or used the park facilities - quite a long road to walk to get to these amenities.

Also within a very short time - the charges have increased heavily - may even have doubled since it was introduced.

Anonymous said...

@no to CPZ virus:

You are loosing the battle and the war. Join the cause!!

CPZ works and is an excellent tool to deter commuters that costs 50p a day.

Yes, it may require those visiting during the week and during the day to put a couple of coins in a pay and display. Not a big deal if compared to improving the areas bordering rail stations.

imagination not more taxation said...

Cpz is a crass, lazy response to a nuanced issue.

Tamsin said...

@Anon 10.43 There was an article about that in New Scientist a month or so back that I referred to on another thread. On the radar of political science debate.

Say NO to CPZ virus said...

@no to CPZ virus:

You are loosing the battle and the war. Join the cause!!

CPZ works and is an excellent tool to deter commuters that costs 50p a day.

Yes, it may require those visiting during the week and during the day to put a couple of coins in a pay and display. Not a big deal if compared to improving the areas bordering rail stations

Dream on.........
Check out the area - because I'm not aware of a 50p pay and display option. If you are not a resident/on the council tax bill you cannot get a ticket

I checked out the info in april for malyons road - this is a summary of the infomation I was given,

Message Bodyhttp://www.lewisham.gov.uk/TransportAndStreets/Parking/ParkingPermits/ResidentsPermits/

zone T
mon-to - fri 9am to 7pm

in may 2011
price doubling from 60 per year to 120
and 3 months will be 35

half day tickets visitor
can buy with the council tax bill
up to 5 hours is £2.80

full day is £5.60

Week is £28 visitor


Just another form of control.

Anonymous said...

£120 a year from the honest motorist! Christ!

CPZ Brockley said...

@ NO to CPZ virus

You are not well informed. Brockley Road and Brockley cross will have pay and dispaly or short term stay areas.

So problem solved, also because it is unlikely the the CPZ would cover street away from the station. Hence you will not be affected. (Apart from not being able to park near the station when you take the train)

Relax, it is not that bad. Just go with the winning CPZ flow.

Say NO to CPZ virus said...

CPZ Brockley said...
@ NO to CPZ virus

You are not well informed. Brockley Road and Brockley cross will have pay and dispaly or short term stay areas.


Dear CPZ Brockley
Think you are the mis-informed,
this thread is about expanding the Ladywell CPZ - I gave the factual details for Malyons Rd in Ladywell- as given by Lewisham.

Brockley CPZ is at the moment a work of fiction and may it stay that way.

dougie said...

there are plans afoot at present for yet another cpz consultation in September 2014 to include ermine,shell, francemary.brookmill rd etc.. looks like the council are getting their way anyway. they are even hiring an outside survey company to log all cars/vans at various times of the day in these streets to see who is parking from outside the area to strengthen their fight for the CPZ So much for a consultation then. Looks like it.ll be a done deal.

fragnurpapa said...

Here we go again, the Ladywell CPZ consultation pantomime is starting again as of September 2014. The boundary will be moved, and the parking misery will be displaced to another set of streets, to get them ready for a CPZ extension in 24 months. Personally, I'd favour a moderate increase in council tax which can be invested in frontline services, rather than raising money in this way which means it is ringfenced for painting lines on the road and employing parking enforcement officers. But this may be a point for debate. Perhaps this is the time to have the debate: I noticed that the council considers, for the first time, the CPZ hours of operation during the consultation.

lady panic said...

there is an official counci reply to a question regarding the Lee Green CPZ consultation with a note about a two hour zone at the end, so the council is not ruling this out, far from it, they will implement it if the consultation is biased towards it, which must be a step in the right direction:


Question:
In July proposals to impose a CPZ in a new zone of Lee Green, to be called Lee Green West were put to public consultation along with a long awaited review of the adjacent CPZ zones F, P and V. Both asked the public if they might prefer different operational timings to the currently established 0900 - 1700 applicable to the particular zones in question. Amongst those suggested was a two-hour period 1200 - 1400 such as that in operation in Bromley which is designed to prevent commuter parking and which has a great deal of support in Lee Green. Should the outcome of the review favour this method, is the Council likely to accede to public pressure and impose the necessary change?

Reply:
On the 10 April 2013 Mayor and Cabinet agreed a set of recommendations which updated the Council’s parking policy following a detailed review. This was followed by the Parking Annual
Report on the 23 October where the Mayor agreed a 3 year controlled parking zone review and implementation programme.

Good progress has been made on the programme with work taking place to review and consult local people in the Lee Green area and consultation due to start in Ladywell in September.

The parking policy says that there must be a minimum 10% turnout for the consultation and that there must be a majority in favour of the proposals for them to be implemented. On this basis, if the outcome of the consultation in the Lee Green area has a majority in
favour of the introduction of a two hour zone this will be implemented.

Algiers CPZ YES said...

We need CPZ in Algers and Veda Roads, we have hospital staff, council depot staff, commuters for the station. All those bleating on about the politics etc... need to take a dose of realism, if you can't afford to run a car then sell it, if you don't like the costs of living in the largest urban city in Europe the MOVE out.

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