The CPZ debate - more fat to chew on

Brockley Central has been copied in on a discussion between Cllr Vincent Davis (Ladywell Ward) and a local resident Andrew, concerned about the nature of the proposed expansion of the Controlled Parking Zone around Ladywell Station.

Cllr Davis' email to residents on this issue makes a couple of points that are worth considering if you live in this area or any other part of the borough considering a CPZ expansion.

Firstly, the Council now regards CPZs as a legitimate form of revenue raising. Secondly, Council officers are opposed to designing a scheme that places restrictions on parking during the middle of the day (punishing commuters who drive in to the area, but not residents who drive to work).

Cllr Davis says:

"Of course it is fair to say even if the council does not actively try to extend controlled parking to earn additional revenue it does improve its financial position by raising charges. The Deputy Mayor's answer to my question shows that the Ladywell scheme is expected to have a surplus of income over expenditure of £32,000. However it has set up costs of £110,000 and will take 3 - 4 years for the CPZ to pay this back. After that date it will contribute the balance to other highways and pavements expenditure.

"Obviously this improves the council's position as this is expenditure that does not have to be funded by Council Tax or funding from HM Government. Ideally parking charges should be kept down but in a fiscal environment where HM Govt cuts grants and imposes a freeze on Council Tax it is inevitable charges will rise...

"Lots of people suggest that the zone does not operate all day as it outs off people having visitors/contractors come to their home and/or they have to pay for them. A zone with a shorter period of operation could work by putting off all day parkers while allowing local residents to use their cars and have visitors. Council officers have objected on the basis that this may mean the scheme does not generate enough income.

"As the Deputy Mayor's answer to my first question shows the main income comes from the sale of permits, not Pay and Display. I suspect if there was a CPZ that operated just for a couple of hours during the day then many residents who take their cars to work during the day would not bother to by permits. This would deprive the scheme of income but more importantly those residents may benefit from the scheme keeping other commuters away so that they may park outside of the scheme's operation but others residents will be paying for it. The solution may be to have a scheme which operates in the early morning and/or the late afternoon/early evening leaving the middle of the day free for residents to receive visitors. Please see the recommendations made by the Sustainable Development Committee."

As Andrew says in response:

"I hope this gets thought through some more before imposed on us all. The residents are not the problem here, so solutions should target the problem and minimise impact on residents. And this should not be a profit making exercise! Expanding the zone out should also enable you to reduce the permit costs and the operating costs will be spread across more people."

32 comments:

No to CPZ. said...

Thank you, as I have always said cpz is a crass 'solution' to any perceived parking issues we have in Brockley.

It is simply a money generating exercise. So I am empathically NO TO CPZ

Tamsin said...

At last the council and officers are up-front about it.

Interesting point on their resistence to a brief midday ban - like Greenwich and Bromley make use of. But surely a solution to residents who drive to work not buying permits at £120 a go and so doing the council out of its legitimate income is to extend the resistriction to the weekends. Anyone who habitually works a seven day week deserves a lucky break.

Anonymous said...

"set up costs of £110,000"


does painting a few white lines on the road and erecting posts really cost this much!!

No to CPZ said...

It's not as simple as that, you need machines to be installed and maintained. Then an expansion of the back office admin, to do deal with processing payments for permits and pcns and complaints. Then the civil enforcement officers aka wardens need to be advertised for, uniforms procured and so forth.

Anonymous said...

I live on amyruth road and have absolutely no problems at all with people parking there. This is a false excuse to take money from us, local residents. It's ludicrous. Don't they have much better use of their time? Why should we pay for this? Isn't this also inciting local people to DRIVE to work instead of taking public transport?!

Robert Sheppard said...

On Algernon Road life was hell before the CPZ - when I got back from driving my kids to school at 9.00am I couldn't park anywhere on my street (it's true)! So I would not want the CPZ to go and am happy to pay £120p.a. (£2.30 per week) even if the Council makes a 'profit' (i.e. makes money to go into other services provided for us). HOWEVER all we need is a short period of controlled hours to address the problem of commuter parking - not all-day controls.

Anonymous said...

Why isn't there a school bus to pick up kids to go to school rather than each parent going on the road? Or why aren't there local schools that kids can walk to?

Anonymous said...

Why do people ask innocuous questions or present arguments under 'Anonymous'. Is there some secret police that come round to nobble those who fall out of line?

Pete said...

This certainly seems to imply that the charge won't be staying at £120 though. Plus if you have any visitors the costs will quickly escalate. If I was religious I would pray that it doesn't get introduced.

Anonymous said...

Algernon rd was not hell before they introduced the *FIRST* CPZ, then it turned to hell.
Now they'll introduce more and make others lives hell.
NO NO NO!

Robert Sheppard said...

. . . and let's not ignore the potential impact of hundreds of new residential units (without off-street parking) down on Elmira Street. YES, YES, YES to CPZ!

Brockley Nick said...

Rob - do you think it might be better to wait until that potential impact materialises, rather than pre-empting a problem that may never materialise?

Where I grew up never had a parking problem, but Greenwich Council decided to introduce a CPZ in anticipation of traffic generated by the Dome (later the O2). Those problems never materialised but the CPZ remains.

Tressilliana said...

There are local schools that kids can walk to. However, all the main political parties believe that giving parents the chance to express a preference for their favoured schools (often erroneously labelled 'parental choice') is the way to go with raising standards in state schools. So you have the stupid situation we see now with children from one road going to half a dozen plus primary schools and god only knows how many secondary schools. Some of them get there on foot or by bus, but a fair few are taken by car. We all know what an enormous difference it makes to the traffic when the schools go on holiday.

[rant over]

Anonymous said...

Well yes, I was going to ask Rob why he needs to drive the kids to school. Gordonbrock's only around the corner.

Lara said...

We're on Algiers and I work at home; to be honest while it seems at first glance there are no parking places any more, the number of people who come and go is high. There is pretty much always somewhere to park; whether its outside your own door is another matter.

What I object to is the high cost of visitor parking. My parents come to help with my toddler once a week, and if they park over two days it will cost over £10. Their own cpz in Oxford offers a certain number of free visitor passes each year. Surely Lewisham does not need to make money from babysitters and could even offer one permit a month to say "we're not really trying to do you over"?

THNIck said...

Tamsin, 7 day operation would be a solution, but surely the correct way for the council to collect "legitimate income" would be an increase in council tax. Increased parking permits would be inefficient to collect and have unnecessary economic consquences.

Anonymous said...

Isn't there a freeze on Council tax.

Tamsin said...

And I was being slightly ironic.

Just so irritating that the council try to find excuses not to go down the limited hours option that would deal with the problem while minimising the impact on local business and residents. (Although £120pa - steadily inceasing - is not a minimal impact...)

What Lara said about people coming and going is a point eloquently made in the public meeting discussing a CPZ in Telegraph Hill by someone who had experienced both CPZ and non-CPZ living - if no-one is being charged everyone is OK with a bit of give and take and sometimes not being able to park right by your house - once you have a "resident's permit" it all becomes much more territorial and unpleasant with your neighbours.

Although I do acknowledge there are difficulties in streets right by a station. To be dealt with simply by a CPZ operating 10-12, or 12-2, or 2-4 six days a week. And you could have the same team of traffic wardens patrolling each area in turn. A real no-brainer, but the Council are dead against it - all day is the only option.

Brockley CPZ said...

@Brockley Nick - not sure where you live. Let me reassure you that the problem has already materialised around the Station.

Please feel free to come anc check every morning and evenings.

The comments of those who run van hiring companies, and those who are not affected by the parking issue near the station do not really count.

CPZ is dealt and surveyed street by street, so feel free to vote no for your road at the next consulation and respect those affected who vote yes.

Yes it pays for itself, and it may make an incredible £32k. (hardly noticeble rounding error in the Council deficit) Rather think at what we could do if we could spend £32k a year to improve the cross, the pavements, the station etc.

So instead of complaining all the time, just lobby the Council to introduce the CPZ but ensuring the money is spent locally.

Certainly Greater Brockley and Ladywell could do with some extra improvements.

Tim said...

I don't really care where the money goes. I just want the vans and external commuters out. I'm happy to pay for a nicer area. Bring on the CPZ!

Brockley Nick said...

@BrockleyCPZ - I was specifically talking about Ladywell.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Brockley CPZ, all you will do is move any parking problems to Telegraph Hill. And we will all finish up paying more money to the Council for something we currently have for free. So much for friendly neighbours hey?

Anonymous said...

Islington have just nearly doubled their CPZ fee from £200 to just under £400...

Brockley local said...

BrockleyCPZ you live near the station WHY have a car? You are just as bad as those you whine about.

Why chose a home near a station. YOUR selfishness point of view makes life in Brockley which has always been a relaxed place, a dog eat dog, 'look after myself alone' sort of place.

CPZ no way... said...

@ Brockley CPZ

Have you not read the post? CPZ's are set up to make money for the council first, and to deal with any parking issues second. Therefore do not expect any decent solutions. All you will do is shove cars into non affected streets. You chose to live in a busy central area, now lump it.

The council would love nothing more than for there to be a borough wide blanket CPZ, it would be trebles all round in the Mayor's office.

The van's in the street should be tackled by appropriate business licenses. Brockley Cross pavements and crossings are already being done up by the council. So the argument of putting revenues back into it is a moot point.

Tim said...

Can you tell me more about these "appropriate business licenses"? How do they work?

Fizzy said...

Why not three different times in adjacent CPZ areas? 10am-noon, noon-2pm, 2pm-4pm. That would cut the number of Traffic Wardens by 66.667% at a stroke and reduce the NCP wage bill.

Also ... cost of the ticket machines. The CPZs in Springbank Road and Fernbrook Road by Hither Green Station (sorry - out of area, but to make a point)have been highly effective. Often not a car in sight (even the residents don't need the deserted spaces), but expensive bits of kit to suppy/maintain. Might have been cheaper to just paint double yellow lines.

Anonymous said...

Well I can see that some people here have very little fantasy. I am sure that if some of the pavements are done up I am sure we can find other ways to impove Brockley with the money. How about a new western entrance to the station etc etc

PL said...

Why should I - someone who doesn't own a car - pay more council tax instead of people who choose to pollute our cities and have a car paying more for the privilege?!

I'm all for CPZ and would want it extended even more. If the council can make money that way, great! I live on a road that is always full of cars parked there just for the day by people who then walk to the station.

I wouldn't mind paying the occasional tenner if workmen needed to park near my house; most of my friends don't drive anyway so it wouldn't be a problem for visitors.

Anonymous said...

Parts of Lewisham are being destroyed by the Councils parking strategy which is largely about generating revenue and disregards the needs of the elderly, women and businesses.Look at Lee High Road .Snapdragon, the Art shop and a number of other businesses have closed because of the parking restrictions.Staff couldn't afford to park It is dreadful that the Authority are allowed to get away with it and affect livelihoods in this way. Anyone stopping outside Broca risks a ticket yet there is no alternative if you are driving past and want to stop. We will lose all these businesses if they continue like this.

Anonymous said...

@Nick, doesn't some berk owe you a pint come new year?

Brockley Nick said...

If people honored the terms of the apocalyptic bets they made against me, I would be £20 up and legless.

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