Brockley View - Death and Restoration?

“A sense of humor always withers in the presence of the messianic delusion, like justice and truth in front of patriotic passion.”

- HL Mencken

Is Brockley Road about to be the subject of an application to redevelop St Cyprian's church hall as a seven storey mixed-use development?

Following the auction of the church and some adjacent buildings, Brockley Central received this message from someone purporting to represent the buyers. This was the message:

Hopefully the council will allow the demolition of the hall so that the plans for the seven-floor residential apartment block with shops below can commence as soon as possible. Brockley View is an exciting project that will make that portion of the road vibrant and pleasant for all.

Manti Properties

The whole thing could be an elaborate ruse of course, but the site went for much more than the asking price, which suggests a commercially-minded developer snapped it up. We'd be fairly relieved if it's not being resurrected as a church (evangelical outfits are crawling all over south east London) but, though neglected, the building itself has potential and of course there will be many who shudder at the very notion of a 7 storey building. On the other hand, a well-conceived development could rescue a struggling parade.

Google's got nothing on "Manti Properties", unless they happen to be based in Utah and "Brockley View" throws up no useful leads either. If you're from the developers, please get in touch, the address is here.

66 comments:

Anonymous said...

I can't see it being true. 7 stories on that busy junction? with parking? It would be blown out of the water by residents on Braxfield road.

Was in the Brockley Mess today - sun was shining in through the window nicely. Don't think they'd be happy if a 7 story building suddenly blocked out the sun.

My guess is that it's a wind up.

Welcome said...

Well whilst the puzzlement over Brockley View ensues.

I'd like to extend a huge welcome to "Rhythms" the new occupant of the space previously occupied by "The Brockley Kitchen". It appears that will be specialising in caribbean food.

Anonymous said...

Riddim!

I'm sure the Brockley Cat will be along soon with a restaurant review.

VAL said...

My brother works at the council and he mentioned that discussions had taken place with Lewisham Planning - PRIOR to the purchase of the church hall. It was for residential with shops on the bottom. Apparently the company was a front for a large investment company. That's all I know.

The Cat Man said...

It will probably be for a large mosque.

Anonymous said...

"I'd like to extend a huge welcome to "Rhythms" the new occupant of the space previously occupied by "The Brockley Kitchen". It appears that will be specialising in caribbean food."

err, just like the Brockley Kitchen then?

Twot said...

Yeah cos all caribbean food's the same innit?

Strawman said...

Well, er, yes actually. Only so many combinations of rice, pea, chicken and plantain in the world.

graeme said...

I've watched that parade now for over a decade and seemingly every shop that opens there seems doomed to failure, save for the not unuseful cooker/fridge magnate. If this isn't a wind up I've got a horrible feeling that any retail spaces (that's shops to you) will be nail-bar orientented; seemingly guaranteed to turn a profit wherever they're sited. Like fried chicken shops.

Anonymous said...

Don't be ridiculous. They could also be turned into hairdressers or money transfer shops.

Anonymous said...

strawman - you show your ignorance about carribean food. what you describe as 'carribean' food is infact jamaican which is merely one country in the carribean and what is usually trotted out in takeaways - mostly run by jamaicans. Bajan food (Barbados), grenadian food (grenada) and trini food (trinidad) although they share some dishes are very varied in content and ingredients and thats before we get to antigua, st vincent, guyana, cuba...

dont be so rude

Monkeyboy said...

great, some random snearing to round of Sunday.

Anonymous said...

"snearing" and "guchi loafers"

Monkeyboy said...

Yes, I'm snearing at the Kings Road and it's Gucci clad patrons. I'm a hypocrite and hang my head in shame.

Anonymous said...

Have you been on the booze this evening Monkeyboy? Chill out.

Monkeyboy said...

I've been on the crack, popped over to East london for some.

The Cat Man said...

you will be able to get a train there soon

Tamsin said...

Quite likely to be true. The proposals for Sainsbury's development around New Cross Gate station varied from eleven to seven stories residential and this was originally going to be on the site of the present petrol station - right in your face as you come down Jerningham Road. Like this will be looming right over you as you come down Adelaide Avenue.

Parking is not now an issue because of course it is better to travel by public transport and so if you develop dwellings without car parking space they will only be bought by those without cars.

Anonymous said...

I wouldnt mind a proper supermarket in SE4 somewhere. Wonder where the footprint of this site is large enough for one? Having a decent supermarket (not a tesco!) at this location may generate sufficient footfall to rejuvenate that entire parade of stores into businesses which are of use to the majority of residents, as opposed to just the numerous tramps who reside in SE4! Dont like the 7 storey plan though - thats far too much for that location.

Anonymous said...

In what way is Tesco not a decent supermarket?

There is also Asda and Sainsbury's within travelling distance.

Ross said...

how convenient do you need life to be? there are three tescos in a 3/4 mile cluster one way. or a massive sainsburys half a mile the other way. not to mention well over twenty little corner shops selling nearly everything you need. i seriously cannot comprehend how you think there is a need for another supermarket in brockley. shops are the last thing anyone needs right now.

Anonymous said...

Tesco food quality is horrendous (its all price price price) so I dont really consider that much use. Asda is equally as rubbish. The nearest Sainsburys is in Lewisham shopping centre which isnt very convenient for top-up shopping as you need to drive up the multi-storey until you find a spot, take a lift down into the Centre to the store, then pay for the privilage of doing so. So not overly excited about that one either sorry. I do agree though, there are some ok shops locally, such as Budgens. But I would prefer if a decent Sainsburys local or dare I say an M&S food or Waitrose opened locally though, especially in this location. Nothing else will generate the footfall needed to revitalize the other smaller stores from betting shops and fried chicken bone shops to something more useful.

Brockley Nick said...

Anon - Sainsbury in New Cross is more convenient. Easier to park and a direct rail connection from Brockley to New Cross Gate.

Headhunter said...

I'm sure they'll never get a 7 storey development through planning. It would look completely out of scale with its surroundings and overshadow th whole parade of shops and Braxfield Rd behind it.

Developers always push the boundaries and make repeat applications again and again until planning finally relents and lets them build a 4 or 5 storey block which they probably wouldn't have got through if they had applied first time round. In any case, is there really enough ground space for a 7 storey development on that spot? The building will be impossibly narrow!

Brockley Nick said...

@HH - I'm sure you're right - 7 floors would be an opening gambit.

dude said...

The nearest Sainsburys is in Lewisham shopping centre which isnt very convenient for top-up shopping as you need to drive up the multi-storey until you find a spot, take a lift down into the Centre to the store, then pay for the privilage of doing so.

Are you disabled?

Anonymous said...

Even 4 or 5 would be pretty awful.

If it contains shops, parking will be an issue. I live in St Margarets Rd, currently used as a car park by people working in or using local businesses. It's not a major problem at the moment, but it would be a nuisance to have many more people doing so.

Anonymous said...

Dude - no, why?

Marisa said...

Another sympathetic development then?
If it was 7 storeys then it would be as tall as the church spire on the corner of Wickham Road! I think this email by "Manti Properties" is probably designed to canvas what kind of objections the local community will submit against the proposals.
I think 2 storeys is probably acceptable ;)

dude said...

Because a 5 minute drive to Lewisham and a journey in a lift is not arduous.

And, if you resent paying to park, use the bus or god forbid your legs to walk.

Anonymous said...

a major supermarket in brockley will kill the local shops cos of price. Yeah use the sains, tescos nearby in new cross lewisham,catford etc. all convenient for that 'big' shop but local shops like budgens, co op (with maybe one more donw brockley cross end) is perfect for the area. When tescos slashed fruit and veg prices in catford they killed off the brilliant local friut and veg market round there. Now all of them sell that low grade "pound a scoop" stuff that goes rotten in a day. Now i have to travel to Nunhead.

Tyrwhitt Road said...

As a comparison the W P Stone redevelopment in Tyrwhitt Road which is 5 storeys - OK one is partially below ground level - has just been granted.

Only 3 objections and went through on delegated authority.

Seems strange as there were a lot more objections last time and very little appears to have changed.

Lets hope the furute residents all own cycles.

Tamsin said...

But if they've paid over the odds for the site they will need the seven storeys residential to get back the investment. Exactly whats happening with the development by New Cross Gate - too much paid for the land so the neighbours will suffer forever.

Tressilliana said...

If this story is true, the buyer has taken a risk in buying a site which doesn't have planning permission for a big enough development to recoup the purchase cost. Surely Lewisham planning isn't obliged to ensure that a commercial property developer is not left out of pocket?

I can't say I'd be keen on having such a tall building there. If I lived in Braxfield Road or Comerford Road I'd be incandescent.

Marisa said...

The developer bought the site for £955,000 which I think is a total bargain considering what it includes.
There is two houses included in the price and houses on Braxfield Rd are now fetching £350,000 each (use to be £420,000 only 2 years ago).

Any proposals will have to really offer parking spaces for each unit.

Ross said...

very much doubt they would need 7 stories to recoup on the price they paid. 930 or whatever it went for is a good price for that amount of land.

on subject the warehouse a few doors down that was for sale with kalmars and apparently had planning permission seems to be under offer or sold. again, seemed to be a very reasonable price.

Paddyom said...

From my experience this weekend shopping and eating in SE4 can be a bit of a nightmare sometimes so any new decent supermarket or a good restaurant would be very welcome.

Sorry this goes on at bit but at 6pm on Saturday I decided to nip out for a bite to eat in SE4 before a night out in London. I thought I'd try the Brockley Mess as its just around the corner but as I sat examining the menu the friendly lady in there explained that they had just closed and wont be opening late until next month.

Fair enough I thought so decided to try the Toads Mouth 2 which looks tasty when I walk past. After 10 minutes of being ignored in the garden I went indoors to ask for a menu and was advised that the kitchen was closed and would not be repoening until 6.30pm which meant a 20 minute wait.

As I was short of time I thought it would probably be easier to just cook something myself, spag bol maybe? So off to Costcutters for ingredients however they had no minced beef. So I grabbed the veggies in there and wandered back to the 'Day-Today' supermarket next to the Brockley Mess and found that they serve no meat at all. Exasperated I ditched the whole idea and just grabbed something in Charing Cross having wasted half an hour wandering along Brockley Road.

Is this just an SE4 thing? I know people say there are plenty of supermarkets here but really only Co-Op and Budgens up in Crofton Pk are relatively reliable as the other places dont even stock the most basic of items. And while I am not overly kean on chain-type places, sometimes I wish the area had just one reliable Pizza Express type of restaurant.

Rant over :)

Ross said...

should have walked the other way to jam circus

Headhunter said...

Pound per scoop markets are fantastic! I discovered Lewisham Market on Saturdays a couple of months back. Such a fantastic range of fruit and veg - pineapples, fresh figs, kolrabi, celeriac, yams, mouli/daikon as well as the usual carrots, potatoes and onions and it's so vibrant.

I was a bit later going down this Sat just gone (afternoon rather than morning) and there was some kind of youth group marching band out. Everyone was out watching them, joking an laughing, proud parents etc. People actually stopped and spoke to me about my bike, the weather etc. It felt like a proper community.

The market stallholders are all like something from Eastenders, they all call you "me darling", "my luverly" etc and everything's "a pahnd". Yes the fruit is quite ripe, but that's so much better than the green bananas and rock hard plums you get at supermarkets. You just need to be organised about what you eat 1st.

I did 3 trips on the bike, filled the rucksack 3 times and spent about £20 and that'll do the 2 of us for the week.

Tamsin said...

And if you're female "Princess" - which is so nice when you're the very shady side of 40.

Sue said...

Just spoke to a senior planning officer who confirmed that they haven't yet been contacted by the new owners (or the previous ones for that matter) to discuss what kind of use might be considered acceptable for the site. They have to consider any application they receive on its own merits, but among the factors they would take into account is what the existing/previous use is and what the impact of any loss of community space would be.

She recognised that this is a key site on Brockley Road and said they would be looking for a high quality development, whatever is proposed there. Rather vague, I know, but she couldn't really say much more at this stage.

When was the hall last regularly used for community events? I remember some line dancing classes being advertised a few years back, but I'm not really aware of much else in recent years.

Brockley Nick said...

Thanks Sue, that's very helpful.

I've seen interior shots of the church and it was in a shocking state, so I doubt it has been used for anything much for a long time.

Marisa said...

The Hall was used quite regularly up to about 2 years ago. There were regular keep fit classes and weight watchers aswell as some parties. The church decided to stop all events a couple of years ago when they first decided to put it on the market.

Sue said...

Thanks Marisa - the more info we have about recent community uses of the hall, the better our chance of retaining some kind of community use in any future development, as any change of use would have to be justified. The planning officer I spoke to wasn't sure exactly what use category the existing building would come under, as she thought there might have been some kind of social club use in more recent years. Any developer keen to squeeze as many flats as possible into the site and not retain any community space would of course be keen to play down any recent community use of the hall and argue that it wouldn't be missed ...

Anonymous said...

What use has the community had from a rundown church hall? Knock down and rebuild Brockley from the ashes. That's my advice! And I don;t care if the new owner makes millions. At least I'll be able to get a good drink and to sleep in a highrise.

John Ex Moonbow Jakes said...

As this is actually a public building built with money from local people generations back that was not for the church to sell I think we should demand a minimum 10% of final sale value from the developer for the 106. That will improve Brockley. £3m total value? £300k into local coffers!

John Ex Moonbow

Anonymous said...

John Ex Moonbow. That aint going to happen. Look at the club at 60 Manor Avenue. Built on the donations of a previous generation. Sold to Zoom Nurseries. Did the community receive any payemnt in kind? Don't make me laugh.
Anyway, the (former) church (?) hall was not a 'community' event, so if it didn't work in the case of the United Services Club it won't apply here. It would be the same as asking you to give over some of your profits for the sale of Moonbows to your former customers. In which case I'd be quids in.

Headhunter said...

Yes I was going to cite the case of the USC on Manor Ave. I emailed the charity concerned however they didn't seem to care that the building was being sold to a private venture...

Boxy said...

These legal but socially inequitable deals are corrosive to society. From Fred Goodwin style pensions, MPs expenses, Rover 4 and bankers' bonuses, it makes the ordinary citizen who contributes by working hard, or paying it to church coffers or charity feel like a mug.

Thousands will have contributed over many years to build up an asset which is going to benefit a few. This isn't socially good.

Anonymous said...

Hope 1 of the shops Is going to be a Tea Room,need some competition around here.

Tressilliana said...

I may be missing something here but surely the church has the sale proceeds from the site and will put that to use for the benefit of the parishioners or the diocese?

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

Tressiliana - That will be the argument put up to overcome the restrictive covenant; that the property should be used for community benefit.

The community didn't use it as a hall so liquidate the asset and use the funds to benefit other areas of the community. There is a kind of logic to it.

John ex MB - Did Zoom Nurseries actually buy the Manor Club, as I know it or was their purchase depenedent on getting Planning Permission which was of corse turned down this time?

If they did purchase, we can expect more applications until permission is achieved.

In the current climate I am curious to see how long it take for W P Stone's site to be redeveloped. Any opposition to that seemed to fall away with the second application.

Anonymous said...

@Tyrwhitt Michael. Zoom Nurseries bought the building anyway - and at the knockdown price of $450k, which is not bad for a huge house in the conservation area.
They have lodged an appeal to the council's decision.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

That's interesting, in only that rumour has it, that the Talbot was sold for an almost identical figure.

Manor Avenue residents gird your loins for more NIMBY campagning......

Incidentally no one has objected so far to the Talbot planning application. We are obviously much more tolerant of non residential uses in Tyrwhitt Road.

Anonymous said...

That's because the Talbot has been 'at the end' of Tyrwhitt Road since time. Try moving it 'to the centre' - and guage the whole Tyrwhitt opinion alongside your own.

Anonymous said...

@Tyrwhitt Michael

That's because the Talbot application only called for:

"The change of use of part of the existing Public House at 2-4 Tyrwhitt Road SE4 and flat above, together with alteration and conversion to provide a three bedroom dwelling-house."

It did not call for the introduction of an existing business.

The Manor Avenue application called for the change of use of defunct 'private members' club' to a 64-place nursery. Hardly comparing apples with apples.

To the Manor Born said...

Beware the might of the Conservation Area. Beyond the demands of either being a housewife or spending daddy's money, it leaves a hell of a lot of time for writing snotty letters.

Anonymous said...

"Defunct" pub into vibrant pub restaurant catering for upward of 100 adult customers sounds very similar to me.

The Manor Club has been there as a business premises since time immemorial too.

Anonymous said...

"Defunct" pub into vibrant pub restaurant catering for upward of 100 adult customers sounds very similar to me.

The Manor Club has been there as a business premises since time immemorial too.

Tyrwhitt Michael said...

You couldn't move the Talbot to the middle of Tyrwhitt Road - there's a Nursery there....

;-)

Anonymous said...

Will the Talbot get a 100 customers ? Maybe, If you count kids as well

Anonymous said...

"Try moving It to the centre"

Seems like, I dont mind as long as It's not next to me.

Brockley Fox said...

I still really hope it will be a tesco. The plot is certainly big enough, and the competition will improve the other shops. Otherwise they will simply close down. the "best one" is horrible, and i avoid the place at all costs. The little newsagent next to morleys is nice though. There actually quite friendly in there. And if best one were to close, we could put in a lovely restaurant bar, or something.

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Sbcreamx said...

I'll have you know that Jamaican food is a lot more than rice peas and chicken. Seeing as the majority only seem to know the basics such as "jerk chicken" that's all they can call upon when talking about Jamaican food.

Sbcreamx said...

If our local shops weren't selling produce that is ridiculously overpriced we wouldn't be in need of shops like Tesco.

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