Later trains for the East London Line? [UPDATED]

The Forest Hill Society has a great report from a recent meeting with the East London Line's operating company, LOROL.

One bit of good news is that BC reader Monkeyboy's one-man campaign to lobby LOROL to extend the line's operating hours might be a goer. They report:

The current timetable shows that while the last Southern train will now leave London Bridge at 0036 instead of 0026 (Mon-Fri), the last train from Canada Water will be at 0017.

LOROL pointed out that their services would be in addition to the 4tph that Southern currently run. They also stated that they would like to run later services, but would not do so until the Engineering and Maintenance strategy had bedded in. The earliest that they would expect a change was May 2011.

UPDATE: To clear up any confusion, there is an ELL train running after midnight, departing for Brockley at 0017 from Canada Water, but only on Friday nights.

Thanks to The Forest Hill Society for their work.

113 comments:

Monkeyboy said...

Bugger, I was composing an email in my head to unleash when drunk. Still, good news though.

currentbuns said...

The National Rail Enquiries site still shows the 2356 as the last service to Brockley from Canada Water on Monday's to Saturdays.

Monkeyboy said...

Hmmm... I'll drink a bottle of whiskey and get to work.

David said...

So not only does the line stop running before Southern, there's also a reduced service after 10pm! Unless Boris is about to introduce a curfew I'd say that's very disappointing. So much for a tube-like service.

Although presumably there will be more trains per hour after 10pm once the line is extended north & west.

Anonymous said...

@currentbuns

that'll be because anything after midnight is listed under the following day.

if only said...

@anon, alas no - there are no Brockley trains in the midnight hours. Next one after the 11.56pm from Canada Water is the 5.56am service the next day ...

Brockley Nick said...

The exception is Friday nights, when a late train runs. I've updated the article.

Anonymous said...

Such a shame that we have to thank the Forest Hill Society for this (although, good work guys - no offence!) and not the Brockley Society. How come FHS is so dynamic, and BC so not?

Anonymous said...

BC is not a lobbying body, it's a forum.

Anonymous said...

Get a grip!

currentbuns said...

Thanks, the 0017 on Friday evenings only shows on TfL's Journey Planner and not on the National Rail Enquiries site.

Brockley Nick said...

@anon 2204 - I believe Anon 2151 (GIVE YOURSELVES NAMES PLEASE PEOPLE!) meant to refer to Broc Soc, rather than this blog, which is not technically a forum and does indeed campaign for a few things.

Sparrow said...

I don't know Nick, seems ambiguous to me, Brockley Society one minute, BC the next (isn't that Brockley Central??). I think they're just confused.

Brockley Nick said...

Sure, but unless anon comes back and says otherwise, i'm pretty sure the BC reference was a slip of the keyboard.

Anonymous said...

Anon yet another dig at the Broc Soc - whose remit is - for the 1000th time conservation.

Brockley Nick said...

Their remit is a bit more than conservation - they do organise the Summer fayre, for example.

We're lucky, of course, to have lots of groups in Brockley, doing different things. eg: BXAG improving the area around the station, Hilly Fields User Group improving the park, etc.

I think the FHS is a good organisation that we can probably learn from in some ways, but that's for another time, another thread.

Tamsin said...

Also, why re-invent the wheel?

All these societies consist of people devoting their spare time to what they see as the common good of their area and so, apart from the on-going burden of the watching brief on planning issues through the regular meetings of the Amenity Societies' Panel, if any particular campaign is taken up it is because a few individuals feel strongly enough about it to keep themselves informed and continue struggling with the relevant authorities and fighting local inertia or, worse still, hostility.

From the outset about four years ago now it was people from the Forest Hill Society who where researching and arguing about the East London Line extention and resultant reduced services. (To the point, in fact, although it is long dead history, that they effectively took over the meeting held in New Cross on the issue so the more immediately local problems of Goldsmiths Students and the generation of pupils going to Beacons Gate school affected by the prolonged closure of the existing East London Line service were rather overshadowed.)

On an issue like this that affects several areas life is too short to do other than let one Society take the lead. People from Broc. Soc. joined in the leafletting and the Petition was promoted here. (And we've all been invited to the party.) That's enough.

Lou Baker said...

There are two problems here:

1 There are not enough late night trains on the ELL.
2 There are far too many societies of do-gooders.

Monkeyboy said...

No, not enough do gooders. They are an esentialnpart of the tory's Big Society, get used to it kiddo.

Anonymous said...

Mmm, I didn't know there would be a reduced service after 10pm, that's not great. how many trains per hour will there be after 10?

Lou Baker said...

@anon

It's fine until 2230. Then the trains vanish.

They go to Brockley from Canada Water at:

2246
2256
2316
2326
2346
2356

Note the 20 minute gap between trains on a line where we were promised tube like frequency.

Anonymous said...

Okay, that is bad. That's keeping the same problem that we get at London Bridge at the moment. 20 minutes is nothing like a tube service and as far as I can tell this has been keep quiet amongst all the banner waving. I really like the idea of the ELL but for it work for us it needs to run properly at those key times. I'm a bit narked at this news.

Anonymous said...

why can't we just have a regular bloody service like the rest of the network. What makes south east london different?

Anonymous said...

Jesus..... These are in addition to the trains at LB. The southern trains there have never been 'tube like' at that time of night. We will be better connected to town, unless like lou 'town' means lb only. Get a grip

Tamsin said...

Still having to change when with the direct Charing Cross service you had through trains when you wanted them - late night and weekends. Not a direct consequence of the ELL extension, I know, but the powers that be were using this new service as a distraction gambit when complaints were raised about that particular, and totally unecessary, service cut.
Also, although the services converge from NXG outwards - and so trains are going much more frequently through our stations than 20 minute intervals - you are waiting that long on the outward journey - haveing made your choice to pick up a service at either London Bridge or Canary Wharf. You don't, in Central London, have the option of seeing which comes first and taking it.

REG said...

It's simply an 'extention' of the East London Line; which was in existence before it came to Brockley.

Is the timetable worse than it was then???

Can't see many in Brockley choosing to use it that often after midnight, when most are tucked up in bed anyway.

Anonymous said...

ELL net change, taking all of the above into account, is positive.....except lou and possibly tamsin. HH is just confused, poor little lamb

Anonymous said...

Exactly, possibly why there are fewer trains. No reason why they shouldn't review that. It's not a technical limitation so something to lobby for

Headhunter said...

Depends on your view and where you're going as to whether the "net change" is positive. If you're commuting to Canary Wharf from Brockley at peak times then possibly it's a benefit (assuming you don't just walk to Deptford Brige DLR anyway), if you need trains off peak from West London back to Brockley (or the other way) then it's not a benefit. No more direct trains from Charing X and only 2 TPH from 10.30pm from Canada Water. It's a complete farce. I know some people dispute the link between the elimination of Charing X trains and the ELL, but I'm not so sure... Anyway, now that South Eastern has cancelled some of its high speed link trains to Kings X (due to lack of demand) which was the cited reason for reduced trains to central London from Brockley and cancellation of Ch X link, why have these not been reinstated?

Anonymous said...

Brockley continues to get services to and from Charing Cross in the form of St Johns and Ladywell. If you can't get your arse up to either of those then quite frankly, as an individual, you deserve to be put out to pasture.

Anonymous said...

The net change is that for the busiest part of the day we have far better links. As for the later trains, your right but having waited for 20 minutes at lb before late at night at a selection of random platforms I don't see a lot of difference. Also tfl will have direct control of that level of service so a much better chance of getting that increased

so HH, would you prefer the old pre ELL connections. A simple question

Tamsin said...

As I've said before - Ladywell and St. Johns are more than half an hour's walk away from where I live and New Cross twenty minutes - the first ten out of the station along a very unpleasant bit to be walking along late at night.

Also one has to bear in mind the needs of elderly, the infirm and those with young children. The prospect of either having to walk a greater distance or needing use the underground and change or change late evening at London Bridge is quite enough to tip the balance against a trip out to a theatre in the Strand for a couple in their sixties. I would still cope, but I am not quite there yet. By the time I am I want our Charing Cross service back!

Brockley Nick said...

A couple of points to make.

1. When the ELL starts on Sunday it is still not "finished" - there are further extensions to Highbury & Islington (2011) and Clapham Junction (2012). As engineering work comes to an end and new services come online, it seems likely that there will be improvements in service levels. We should certainly lobby for them, as there's no reason why they couldn't be delivered (other than money). A very powerful argument can be made in terms of the regeneration benefits and we should make it.

2. In addition to the services that Lou listed after 10.30pm, there are the services to New Cross, which are obviously useful for some BC readers.

Headhunter said...

Quite frankly for my purposes yes, I prefer direct and frequent trains to Charing X. I don't use trains during the day or at peak times, I use them to get to central and West London on Saturday nights and at weekends. Having to change at London Bridge and 2 trains per hour from Canada Water don't help me.

Ladywell is a fair hike away, New Cross and St Johns are a bit more accessible I suppose (Brockley encompasses a wide area remember - Ladywell is not the answer to everyone's prayers!)

I understand that others may see the ELL as a net benefit, I'm just not sure I'm one of them...

Tamsin said...

Having been able to use the old ELL from NXG - I think we are definitely worse off. But can see that for those further out and perhaps for the image of SE London as a whole the service with the extension is a net gain (would have just liked that acknowledged at the outset when things were being hyped as win:win for everyone).

Anonymous said...

It's not the HH line, it's there to please most of the people most of the time. It will.

Brockley Nick said...

@HH - there were never direct and frequent services to Charing X. We had one train every 30 mins, after 7pm.

Brockley Nick said...

@Tamsin - as a New Cross resident, please could you explain the net loss as you see it?

In particular, I'd be interested to know:

What was the frequency of the old ELL? Is 8tph to NXG and 4tph to NG more or fewer than before?

How many stations did it allow you to visit directly? Is the new number of stations higher or lower than before?

How do the stations and trains compare in terms of access and comfort? Better or worse?

How many overland trains will service New Cross and New Cross Gate cumulatively and how does this compare with four years ago? More or fewer trains to London Bridge?

Jules said...

There have also been cuts to the southern timetable for those of us who commute out of London into Surrey. Personally I will now have to change trains 2/3 times to reach Leatherhead in Surrey instead of the direct service I have been using from Brockley.

stereo said...

jules, yeah that's very annoying but it's nowt to do with the ELL. you wanna be having words with Southern. Or change jobs :(

The Cat Man said...

Hi, does this service start Sunday morning or Sunday midnight? I wanna plan my first trip on it!

Monkeyboy said...

The fact that Brockley now serves Southern and the ELL will strengthen the business case to make it truly step free. May have to wait a while though in the current climate. Of course the trains themselves are much more amenable to pushchairs/suitcases and wheelchairs (assuming you get on somewhere with step free station and want to interface with the Jubilee and the rest of london of course)

It is a major thumbs up from me but yes we should presurise for better late services. As a TfL service I susspect that we in London will be able to exert more influence over the service patterns.

Anonymous said...

only 2 an hour after 10.30 looks very under nourished.

pragmatist said...

4 per hour after 10.30 according to Lou Baker. Not great but better than every half hour.

Being equipped with a timetable so you can plan when you arrive at the station is a good way to cut down on waiting times. Not always possible, I know, but if you know there's no train for 20 minutes you can at least choose to go for a swift half rather than spend the time standing on the platform.

A timetable and good knowledge of local pubs - that's the answer.

Lou Baker said...

The ELL does represent an improvement to our public transport infrastructure. Even I've never denied that.

The disagreement is over how much of an improvement.

Nick is out waving the flags and cheerleading for the 'this is transformational' side.

I'm on the 'very marginal improvement for most of the passengers most of the time' side.

The basic problem, as I see it, is that the project hasn't be bold enough and has been done on the cheap.

The connections aren't good enough, the trains aren't long enough and they're not frequent enough.

The only way to make the ELL like the Tube is to
make it a Tube. That means one core route and no
rigid timetables.

But that would mean us having to give up
all our London Bridge trains - which most people probably
won't like.

However I confidently predict we will lose all the London Bridge trains before the decade is out.

Brockley Nick said...

@LB - if you live in New Cross (like you do), it is a marginal (though significant) improvement. If you live in Brockley (like I do), it is transformational.

And the problem isn't conflict with the train timetables - because during the busiest time of day, they are able to squeeze 8 ELL tph in. It's off peak, when the southern timetable is also less busy, when they reduce the service.

It's a big improvement. It will be an even bigger improvement in 2011, when the Islington extension opens. It could be an even bigger improvement with the addition of more trains. Let's campaign for that on the basis of the regeneration benefits, right along the line, rather than moaning about how hard done we are wheny by SE London standards, we are kings among men.

That's all.

Headhunter said...

I must admit, I wonder how long it will be before Brockley loses all central London connections. When I first moved to London, I lived in Catford and I think about 90% of trains out of Charing Cross used to stop at New Cross or NXG, now very few do. I remember standing at Charing Cross desperately searching for a train to Catford on the departure boards and seeing that every one stopped at New cross and wishing I lived there. I expect that once phase 2 has been rolled out, there will ever increasing pressure to axe off peak central London trains altogether...

information overload said...

Is there a map anywhere showing what the ELL will look like after the full extension?

Thanks.

Brockley Nick said...

Brockley will never lose central London connections. There, simple.

Headhunter said...

Hmmm.... Kings among men if you take trains at peak times, if you want links to central London off peak, then I think slightly more impoverished is the expression you're looking for...

Anonymous said...

Losing London Bridge trains would be a total disaster. Why might that happen?

Tamsin said...

With the old ELL the frequency was about the same - although I haven't checked the detail. It was certainly turn up and wait tube service rather than aiming for specific trains.

Being the end of the line you could get in and sit down while waiting for the train to depart - and always, but always, be sure of a seat - and seats together when travelling as a family. This is still the case now but I suspect it won't be after Sunday.

We used to have grottier trains (I acknowledge) - but more seats.

We had the link to Canada Water for interchange with the Jubilee Line and truly Central London (Green Park and Bond Street) and Whitechapel and Shoreditch if you were clued up enough to realise this was the back door of the City. The stations further north (not having parents in Dalston) are not somewhere that I would go to often enough to be grateful for a direct service.

On the mainline we used to have a direct service to Charing Cross - one or two an hour all through the day. This went out of the window with privatisation and franchises - too much hassle for companies with an eye on simplicity and the bottom line. The rump of this - nevertheless very valuable as it was when you wanted it for one off journeys with young children, heavy shopping or late in the evening - was withdrawn recently. Not connected with the ELL but the timing was such that this proved a good distraction ploy by Tfl, the Dept of Transport and the franchise holders.

Also on the mainline, even being so close to the end of the journey you could sometimes get a seat in the rush hour, or at least squeeze onto the train, because of people getting off to cross over to the ELL for the Docklands and Jubilee Line connection. This I suspect will no longer happen as they will cross over earlier where the trains will be less crowded or be travelling on the ELL from the outset (the only way to get a seat).

So, I stick by my contention, overall in the changes over the past two years we in NXG are losers. Get the Charing Cross off-peak service restored and the balance will possibly be about even - what you lose on always having to stand when you didn't before you gain with new rolling stock and more connections for occasional use.

Headhunter said...

The powers that be seem to be on a mission to reduce traffic through London Bridge, so once we have a fully functioning ELL with links to H&I and Clapham Junc, it's possible they'll start to sneak in further cuts, but that's pure speculation at the moment. If it happens, Brockley will be little more than a far flung, awkwardly positioned spin off stop on the main Overground route. Albeit in zone 2.

Brockley Nick said...

@HH - if you live around here, you have not only Brockley services to London Bridge and the city via overground and ELL, you also have direct connections with the northern line, the jubilee line, the district line and the DLR.

Not only that, but whereever you live you will be within short walking distance of at least one of the following stations, all of which offer alternative routes and connections: Ladywell, Nunhead, Lewisham, New Cross, St John's, Crofton Park, New Cross. The DLR is a short distance away too.

Compare that to Charlton, my former home. One train station. One train every 10-15 mins. Alternatives? A 20 min bus ride to Jubilee Line. Or head to Woolwich to get a DLR to... North Woolwich.

Similar story in Greenwich (OK they have the DLR too, which has been transformational), Blackheath, Lee, Forest Hill, Honor Oak, Millwall, Dulwich, etc, etc.

Most parts of SE London are served by one line and one station. We are served by two lines in one station and are within easy reach of many more.

Kings among men!

Get some perspective.

Tamsin said...

London Bridge is not Central London. We would always have trains there but always have to change - while the privileged elite from the Home Counties are swept through direct to Charing Cross and Cannon Street.

Headhunter said...

Nick - Brockley will probably never completely lose trains to London Bridge but how can you categorically say that further cuts to off peak trains won't happen?

Brockley Nick said...

@HH - no the powers that be are not on any such mission. London Bridge is being expanded for Thameslink (nearly £3bn investment), which is causing short-term disruption to capacity.

Brockley Nick said...

Of course London Bridge is central London.

Headhunter said...

I hope you're right!

Anonymous said...

When I first heard about the ELL I thought it was transformational - in many ways. There were always naysayers who claimed it won't be a real tube, but my argument was always that it's a tube in every respect but name.

Now I'm finding out things that are making me doubt how transformational it will actually be. The frequency after 10.30 is big issue and will give the naysayers plenty of ammunition to fire our way. My fear is that the regeneration that I hope will happen due to this line will fall short of expectations if the line itself falls short of expectations.

I agree with Nick that we must lobby to get the frequency upped to a point so the service is tube like. The questions is - how do we do that and when can we start?

One other question - is there any indication that the frequency will go up once the Highbury and Islington extension is complete?

Brockley Nick said...

PS - "priviledged elite" who arrive at Charing X?! Not the bunch i see...

Wendy said...

headhunter doesn't even use the goddam train apart from once in a blue moon to get home from meeting his mate in Charing Cross. For that one journey, he wants to do it without changing trains at LB.

Well boo hoo.

Brockley Nick said...

Next time you read an article where boris claims he's made cuts to London's budgets without causing any pain, ask yourselves when you think the last train home on the ELL would have been if Ken was still in charge.

And then ask yourselves whether the "new routemaster" money might have been better spent.

iggerant said...

You'll have to spell it out, I'm afraid. When WOULD the last train home on the ELL have been under Ken Livingstone?

Brockley Nick said...

After midnight.

And the answer to the second rhetorical question was "no".

Anonymous said...

@ iggerant said...

The point Nick is making is that Ken had many sensible public transport policies.

The only transport related scheme that Boris has produced is a half-baked scheme to replace bendy buses - a project which costs a huge amount of money with negligible benefits to the travelling public.

Headhunter said...

Absolutely Nick, what an enormous, colossal waste of money this Routemaster that doesn't even look like a Routemaster has been! Please can we dump Bozo as soon as possible?

Monkeyboy said...

This is getting increasingly sureal. First we get Lou admiting to a 'marginal' benefit from the ELL, which ranks second only to the Pope stating that he's gone off the whole religious vibe.

Then he say's it's not as good as a dedicated tube line with trains presumably every 2 minutes. No Lou, it isn't. That was never an alternative scheme so what's the point of the comparison? When someone says your wife* is pretty do you counter with 'yeah but she's not Bridget Bardot'. Not relevent.


*this is a hypothetical wife who I'm sure is the equal to any '60's screen siren

Brockley Nick said...

@Anon Yes, but it's a bit more than that.

I think it's reasonable for Boris to say "I am a low-tax leader and I want to cut services to reduce tax bills." However, that's not what he says, he says that he's found loads of painless admin cuts - efficiency savings - which mean that taxes can be cut without sacrifices.

He then shaves services like this one, cuts projects that most Londoners aren't even aware of, like improvements to the north bank of the Thames and shelves major "transformational" projects like the Thames Gateway bridge.

It's dishonest.

Headhunter said...

Wendy dear, I may not use the train very often but that doesn't mean I don't want the best for my area and community (and house price). Get back in yer box.

Mb said...

HH, plugging Brockley into Docklands will increase houseprices.

Anonymous said...

Lets rally the troops and storm the GLA

Anonymous said...

Not to mention that every bus route converted from bendys will require around 1 third more vehicles (due to the larger capacity of the bendy bus), and therefore drivers to run the service.

How is that an efficiency exercise?

Westsider said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Headhunter said...

...And when (if) they do increase the number of buses there will be a consequent increase in pollution, which already exceeds EU standards (and hasn't Bozo already scrapped the LEZ extension proposed by Ken?)

Headhunter said...

MB - I guess so, but Brockley was never very far removed from the Docklands anyway, it's only about 10 mins walk from where I am to Deptford Bridge DLR, otherwise for many people there are easy links to Lewisham to get the DLR from there...

Mb said...

HH, we've beaten a confession out of lou. Give it up, resistance is futile.

Brockley Nick said...

Hang on a min HH, you're happy to walk to DLR in Lewisham, but have spent the last year complaining that you have no direct connection to Charing X, when Lewisham has loads?

Brockley Nick said...

In fact HH, St John's is much closer than Lewisham (only a few mins from your house, almost equidistant with Brockley station) and has direct trains home from Charing Cross in the evening.

Brilliant, you can stop complaining now! The ELL is great! You are a king among men!

Anonymous said...

The bigger question is this. Will these reduced times have a negative effect on the positive effect on our house prices due to the opening of the ELL.

Serious point to be made here - part of the house price speculation is due to a general feeling that we're getting a tube in all but name.
(And make no mistake if we WERE getting a tube (i.e. bakerloo extension) there would be no doubt that house prices would be boosted and regeneration would happen.)

But if people lose faith in it's tubelike qualities - will the ELL actually deliver the regeneration many of us crave.

Headhunter said...

Yes, yes, it's true, I don't live that far from St John's but I want my Charing X link to Brockley back, goddamit! You lot are just giving in too easily!

I'm not actually saying that the ELL is a disaster, I know some people welcome it and it'll make life easier for some, just for me, it doesn't help much, if at all...

Brockley Nick said...

Right, HH has conceded. Only Tamsin left to crack.

Welcome to 2010 said...

Anon, if you live on a tube branch line, then 10 min intervals between tube trains late at night are not uncommon.

We will be getting a tube like service. Your house price is safe.

Mb said...

If we stick a funnel on it, timberclad the carriages and call it a steam train will that do it? Tamsin likes a bit of nostalgia. Is this what working in PR is like? Piss easy.

Anonymous said...

@Welcome to 2010.

Really? I thought tubes rain every 3-5 mins.

Anonymous said...

rain? I think i meant ran.

M said...

I often get the District Line out Richmond way and 10 minute intervals are pretty common at all times, unfortunately.

M said...

And it doesn't seem to have done their house prices much harm! ;-)

Brockley Nick said...

Through the centre of London out to zones 2-3, tube frequencies are usually pretty high throughout the night, but once you start getting on to branches further out, frequencies drop. Brockley is the first stop after the service splits, with trains going to both NXG and New Cross, so it is effectively a branch.

however, given that we're zone 2, we should be able to expect better.

Anonymous said...

Let the good times roll then.

Tommo said...

Some London Underground branches have 20 minute frequencies later in the evening e.g. the Hainault loop on Central line.

Our situation may improve once the line has been properly up and running for a while. We shall have to wait and see.

In the meantime, some lobbying of TfL can only help matters.

Mb said...

Boris has confirmed that there will not be conductors on his borisbus. So even less point. Why was anyone convinced this would be a good idea?

Headhunter said...

Did you see the designs in the ES yesterday? It looks nothing like a Routemaster, it looks more like a snazzed up version of the old London trolleybuses from the 1950s. It's basically a multi million pound version of your average London double decker with less capacity than a bendy...

Tommo said...

The trouble with the routemaster was that people had a tiresome habit of falling off the back of them.

In today's litigious climate I can't see them ever being able to leave the rear platform open on the new routemaster which renders it no more effective than a standard double-decker.

Even with the rear platform open, because no conductor is on board it's difficult to see how revenue inspection will be implemented. One of the key arguments for replacing the bendy bus was the amount of money lost from fare evasion.

The whole scheme seems amazingly badly though out. Actually, not so amazing seeing as its Boris' idea.

Headhunter said...

Well everyone bitched about Ken and the bendy buses and this is what we ended up with. I always thought bendies were damn effective mass transit machines, OK so they clogged up some of London's narrower roads but they are effective at their job.

name said...

There needs to be a method* of refining public discussions so that decisions are made intelligently not just reactively.

*Don't ask me how this can be done.

Anonymous said...

Didn't they also kill a few people though?

Anonymous said...

the bendy buses I mean.

The Oracle said...

[Docklands24.co.uk] The Mayor of London Boris Johnson, said: "I'm thrilled for every community situated along the route of this incredible stretch of track with its phenomenal new trains and stations.

"Its Tube-style service will make getting around the capital massively easier and bring jobs and opportunities along the length of the line."

If its tube-like enough for the Mayor then is it too much to suggest that it may also be so for many Londoners, and visitors, too?

Headhunter said...

Meh, what's a few deaths to fast efficient public transport. Sacrifices to the speed and efficiency of the masses

Anonymous said...

The bendy bus has barely any more accidents than regular buses per mile driven when the type of route is taken into account i.e comparison of a busy inner city bendy bus route with a busy inner city non-bendy bus route.

There's no doubt that some routes are not suitable for bendy buses, however they are highly effective on others and should not be withdrawn.

The argument for replacing the bendy bus has more to do with reactionary politics than facts.

Tamsin said...

Sorry - been off for a couple of hours being Ofsteddy for Oak Hill or I would have joined back in earlier.

Points in order:
@BN 16.06 London Bridge is not Central London so far as galleries, theatres, shops, etc., etc. is concerned. Wrong side of the river for a start. OK there is the South Bank and Hayes Galleria and things but that is a little enclave of its own. Not Central London.

@BN 16.07 The "privleged elite" remark comes from the franchise holders somewhere being on record as indicating that they prefer to give priority to the more profitable longer haul services from Kent, Surrey, Sussex rather than the inner London boroughs. When the ELL was going to close for two years Southern would not come to the meetings because helping to alleviate the issue was not their problem and they absolutely refused to re-timetable their non-stopping trains to put in an extra stop at NXG because of the inconvenience that the extra two minutes to the journey time would cause their other passengers. (As well, of course, as all the yobs piling on and standing over you with smelly armpits.)

@BN 16.52 Not cracked yet - and you haven't commented on my 4 o'clock post (which answered, although not all and not directly, the questions in your 13.30 one).

@MB 17.06 Although I wish I could aspire to just a quarter of the elegance of Celia Johnson I would not be won over by token steam-ism. Fun it its context - a re-run of the Mallard or a steam special roaring through Swindon at 90mph - but in practice my grandfather's family used to be scrubbed from head to toe in Wrights Coal-Tar Soap (only just realised the irony of that) whenever they came back from London because they were just so begrimed.
But, yes, working in PR is easy - just look at how we were all told that the ELL was universally wonderful and everyone (apart from Lou, Headhunter and me) swallows it whole.

Mb said...

You are the canaries in the coal mine

T said...

That's rather sweet. Tweet-tweet!

worried said...

Hmm, about the alleged 12.17am service on Friday nights ... doesn't seem to be showing on the Tfl journey planner for tomorrow night. Somebody please tell me I am wrong!

Anonymous said...

There isn't a 0017 service on a Friday night / Saturday morning (or any night).

Anonymous said...

There timetable dosn't show it either.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/dalston-junction-to-west-croydon.pdf

It may be an extra one they've added to the service? I'd be nervous about relying on that while things sort themselves out.

Worried said...

Well at least I'm not alone in worrying! Wonder where Nick got his update for this thread about the fabled 0:17am from Canada Water? I had dared to dream!

Brockley Nick said...

There was a scheduled train at that time on the opening weekend, according to the Forest Hill Society and TfL's journey planner.

If you look for this weekend, it says scheduled engineering work is taking place. Presumably related to the Highbury and Islington extension.

Worried said...

Getting even more confused now ... the late Friday train can't have been scheduled for the opening weekend, as it didn't open til Sunday. The late Friday train isn't mentioned on the paper booklet ELL timetables either. Praps the TfL journey planner was wrong and they've now corrected it. Sigh. Though it always sounded way too good to be true.

Brockley Nick said...

To New Cross Gate.

Anyway, the last train is around the time we'd been led to believe it would be, albeit a few minutes earlier than I'd been hoping for. But they've indicated that after the Highbury extension, there is some room to run later trains, so let's lobby for that.

Tommo said...

I should think there's not much chance of any later trains until the Highbury & Islington extension opens - more trains running on the line may lead to later train movements for operational reasons as much as anything.

The present timetable runs until December so there won't be a change before then at the earliest :-(

Marc said...

Unless Boris is about to introduce a curfew I'd say that's very disappointing. So much for a tube-like service.

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