Double boost for Brockley transport - more trains, later tubes

The Sydenham Society reports two significant improvements resulting from timetable changes that come in to effect on December 12th, including more trains from London Bridge and later trains on the East London Line.


The East London Line

A train will be added to the ELL evening timetable, so that Brockley residents will be able to stay out later. The lack of a service after midnight was the one disappointment when our lovely new tube service - TfL promised to look at options to address it. From December, the last train will depart Dalston Junction at 12.15am, reaching Canada Water at 12.31am, providing vital late-night drink-up time.

The London Bridge service

We spent much of 2009 arguing that the service reductions to London Bridge we experienced when the East London Line was introduced had nothing to do with the technical constraints put on the system by the tube service. From December, some of the trains lost in May will be restored.

There will be two additional evening peak trains between London Bridge and Crystal Palace at 17.24 and 18.24, adding capacity and frequency at rush hour.

There will also be an extra Saturday late evening London Bridge to Victoria train, leaving London Bridge at 23.52. The Sydenham Society says:

"This fills in a 30 minute gap after the 23.36 and means that there will now be six late evening trains from London Bridge after 11pm (the 23.06; 23.22; 23.36; 23.52; 00.06 and 00.36)."

74 comments:

Vesta Curry said...

Excellent news about later trains on ELL - Café OTO in Dalston is a fantastic music venue (unmissable) - but it is always a bit of a worry (post-gig) - you have to really watch the clock and drink up for the 11.40. Stranded at midnight in Dalston with buses ... hmm, that's pumpkin territory.

Vesta Curry said...

... and I forgot to say. The other excellent thing about Café OTO is that it is copper-bottom guaranteed Kings-of-Leon-free!

ewhursty said...

Ooh, nice - now as long as they don't change the N343 route we are in clover!

Anonymous said...

It is great sadness that I'd like to announce the death of Lou Bakers credibility. His constant bleating in the face if insurmountable facts should serve as an example to us all.

Tamsin said...

To grouch ungratefully - we still haven't got the direct evening service from theatre-land and Charing Cross restored to us. But good for the Sydenham Society to have kept up the pressure and got these results. And good for the train companies to have listened.

I don't think anyone is pushing for the N343 bus route to be significantly changed - just possibly to circle the roundabout at the top of Pepys Jerningham rather than grinding up and speeding down those roads empty - so that some residents can sleep. A guest I had staying in September commented on the buses, that she thought they would cease at midnight (like they do elsewhere) and was rather put out when they continued half-hourly through the night.

Ewhursty said...

Uh, not empty! I use them all the time and people only really start getting out beyond Peckham when it hits Brockley. How would you like it if they stopped the ELL at Surrey Quays?

Lou Baker said...

Yes, the addition of three extra trains per day including ONE - a whole train! - which runs after midnight is a staggering improvement to the line.

All they have to do is make the ELL go somewhere useful and job's done.

Still I can sleep easy knowing I can now get to Penge after midnight should I ever need to.

Anonymous said...

I work in the city and have used southern about three times since the ELL opened. it really is just you.

Tamsin said...

I am just talking about the last (or first)few hundred yards of the N343 route from the Kitto/Pepys/Jerningham/Vesta roundabout down to (or up from) the A2. Literally the last two and first two stops. And to my mind non, one or two, or at most four, five or six, people on a massive double-decker is "empty".

Therefore, weighing up the convenience of these very few travellers and the impact on these steep residential roads, there is at least an argument that the night route - after the last trains it connects with have come and gone - should be curtailed just this tiny bit.

Vesta Curry said...

@ Lou - to paraphrase - "He who is tired of East London, is surely tired of life itself"

343er said...

Well two stops at the end of the N343 is a big deal for me and those other four or five people (at very least) on every bus during the night. From the looks of the regular crowd we are tired night workers on low wages and get a once-every-half-hour transport deal as it is (paying same amount day workers pay for their much more frequent service) ... just another example of Boris's feared Kosovo, with richer people (eg home owners) lobbying to remove services for the poorer (eg night buses) so we can no longer live in the area.

Tressilliana said...

The first 484 of the day leaves Lewisham at 4.45am and the last one leaves Lewisham at 01.05am. I don't find the buses particularly noisy or intrusive and they do pass very close to our house (so close it sometimes shakes). They must be a godsend for people trying to get home from hospitals or out to cleaning jobs at unsocial hours.

Anonymous said...

good news!

Tamsin said...

The 484 is (I would guess) about a third of the size and weight and, if it keeps to the speed limit, goes at half the speed of the 343 sometimes does down Jerningham Road. Very different level of impact on both the road surface and the residents.

So close the house "sometimes" shakes! Lucky you. Here they nearly always shake. The new design buses - although bigger - are at least quieter. But you still know when they go by, even at the back of the house.

I absolutely agree that the night bus service is fantastic for those travelling at unsocial hours and crucial for shift workers. However there are night buses going up and down the A2, the N346, N36, N21 etc. and so the N343 could stop short at the Kitto/Vesta roundabout without affecting the overall coverage.

Vesta Curry said...

@ Tamsin ... but honestly it's just living on a bus route ... the 484 guns around the corner of Sprules into Vesta almost outside my house ... first bus 5.00something in the morning. The smaller buses may shake your house less but they rev up like a screaming sports car.

But I think Jerningham just has to accept that it *is* on a bus route. Just as Pepys is too.

I (dearly) wish there were half the cars and no buses ... but then I'd be in a world of my own and not in a busy city where others have other priorities.

Howson Road said...

Thank the lord we don't have buses down Howson...I now appreciate the quiet!

Brockley Kiwi said...

Although 2 hours earlier than I want to wake up, the first 484 down endwell rd is my alarm clock. No issue with the buses themselves (I knew about them before I moved) but the location of the speed humps directly outside our window make it more miserbale than it needs to be. The angry roar of the engine as the driver slams his foot on the accelerator after passing over them does my head in.

BB Roader said...

@Tamsin, the 484 does not stick to the speed limit - certainly not on Brookbank Road - and said road recently had to be totally restructured (not just resurfaced) because of the damage the bus had done to it since it was last resurface about 3 years ago. Because two buses can't pass side by side they often hoot at the top or bottom of the road to alert the bus at the other end of the road of their presence. We all have our crosses to bear but it sounds like the desire to alter the bus route is for somewhat selfish reasons. I would dearly love to change the route of the 484 but again, it was there when I moved here and it would be purely for nimby/house value reasons. I agree with the previous poster who mentioned Boris's Kosovo.

Vesta Curry said...

Agree with above posts ... like I said in my selfish dreams the 484 isn't roaring outside my bedroom ... but I am just a small part of a big picture.

That said, hearing others talk - I have often thought (in an utterly half-hearted and ineffectual way) to write to the operator to complain about the way the drivers drive the buses. The small bus routes weave through small residential streets but, perhaps because of schedules, race and swoop and rev their engines.

Surely the drivers should be educated in pro-social driving skills. Also I hope for greener buses in the future that don't produce 90dB+ noise ... wow ... electric buses .. mmmm wonderful ... zzzzzzzzzz

Tamsin said...

I know it's living on a bus route and I know that buses are one of the things that make the capital function. And we are so much better served than even the biggest provincial city. I just resent the way the bus companies move the goal-posts - with ever bigger vehicles. I also deplore the way they won't even acknowledge there could be a problem and the effort it takes to set up a meeting to discuss constructive solutions.

The house value is personally immaterial to me - no intention of moving in the next twenty years by which time everything will have changed again. I am also so used the buses that they don't disturb me as much as they do others involved in trying to make the bus companies listen. It just seems silly when the complaints about the N343 are concentrated on these two short roads at the very end of the route that they are not simply cut out of the equation. There would also be savings on wear and tear on the road surface and the water infrastructure (the regular leaks must be something to do with the weight and regularity of the vehicles) and fuel. How much diesal does it take to heave a bus empty or with three people on it up Pepys Road every half hour through the night when they could catch it at a stop a few hundred yards away? It is not the elderly, the infirm or those with heavy bags or young children who uses the night buses and anyone using them has and so is capable of a walk at the beginning or end of the journey since the route is not linear but goes round a loop.

Anonymous said...

There are safety issues. I'd rather wait down on the busy lower road and catch the bus up, than walk up late at night.

Foxberry Mike said...

Lou
'Still I can sleep easy knowing I can now get to Penge after midnight should I ever need to'.
It is not all bad news as I don't think there are more post-midnight trains between Brockley and Penge, which can only be a good thing - if I understand your way of thinking....

Anonymous said...

Tamsin said...

To grouch ungratefully - we still haven't got the direct evening service from theatre-land and Charing Cross restored to us


Yes we do... the Ladywell train from Charing cross runs up until 00:34.

Tamsin said...

Yes, but being ungrateful, I want back the ones to New Cross Gate - a five to ten minute walk away from where I live rather than half an hour to forty minutes (or twenty minutes from where they stop in New Cross).

Brockley Nick said...

And trains to St Johns and New Cross from Charing X.

Tamsin said...

Living so close in losing the through trains almost doubled the journey time - further out the inconvenience becomes proportionally less.

As I said - ungrateful and grouchy...

Lou Baker said...

@Tamsin

Well said. I live about equal distance from Brockley and New Cross Gate.

The ELL has not been good for us.

We've lost all our direct trains to central London
and have frequent direct trains to Anerley instead.

It really has not been the wonderful addition to our public infrastructure which some people claim.

Of course those who live in the chav end of Brockley have seen an improvement. But it's come at the expense of the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

STEP AWAY FROM THE KEY BOARD........

Let it go, Lou said...

Hands up who on here would like to revert to the pre ELL days?

Lou, tamsin possibly, HH even though he cycles. That's three.

I work in town, the new option is fantastic. Stop pissing in the wind, you're beginning to look foolish.

railman said...

and the cancellation of the service to charing cross had nothing to do with the east london line, it was the result of changes to the stratford service, with knock-on effect across the southern and south eastern timetable.

Onanist said...

Well done Boris.

Monkeyboy said...

Do you remember Sadam Hussains media chief, Comical Ali as he became known and loved. Puffing his chest out in front if the cameras and stating with authority that there were no coalition troops in Baghdad? Over his shoulder you could see US tanks trundling along the opposite bank of the river.

That's Lou that is......    

Lou Baker said...

I can say with confidence there are no American tanks in Dalston.

Though the area would benefit from an airstrike or two.

Vesta Curry said...

... I just don't get this East London blindness. Some people should get out and about more ... running up and down runnels with blinkers on isn't as much fun as it's made out to be.

DJ said...

Someone who lives in New Cross slagging off Dalston? Oh, the irony...

Pity poor Lou. He still thinks the Kings Road is the epitome of cool - he's never going to enjoy Shoreditch.
He also still can't seem to grasp the concept of changing trains - perhaps his trendy new flares flap in the wind and get in the way when he's crossing to another platform?

343er said...

Tamsin, you don't like the extra walk to Ladywell for trains, we don't like the extra walk at 4am to get to our final stops if the N343 finishes early.

Brockley Nick said...

@Tamsin, how does the lack of direct trains to Charing X "double" your journey time? The only time it adds is the time it takes to switch platforms. Let's be generous and say that that's 3 mins. The rest is down to the train timetable. Of course, time it wrong and you might have to wait a while for a train, but that's no different to the old system, when if you missed the one train an hour, you would have to get another train and change.

Anonymous said...

love the ELL - it means the trains to london bridge are so much less of a scrum

Tamsin said...

@Nick - the through trains were half-hourly, I seem to recall (and it used to be every twenty minutes) and if you were early you could get on and wait on the train in relative comfort (like getting on the bus at the stand - so I am being inconsistent here). But "double" was probably an exaggeration - say 30% in time and double the inconvenience. The changeover at London Bridge is a two minute sprint if the timing is perfect as the NXG/Brockley trains usually seem to go from the more distant platforms from upper part of the station. You are otherwise hanging about late in the very unpleasant surroundings of London Bridge Station.

@ 343er - granted, but those working night shifts are younger, fitter and less tramelled than the elderly, infirm and those with buggies and children for whom a through service to Charing Cross at weekends and in the evenings was a considerable benefit, the quite unecessary loss of which is to be deplored. This cut-back arose simply for the convenience of the operators and because the bodies concerned made a mess of re-letting the franchises - nothing to do with prioritising other valued services.

Grant the point made on safety - I don't like changing late at night at London Bridge or the surrounds of New Cross Station at that time and the bus-stops by St. Catherine's Church and Aske's would be very dark and lonely.

The bus service won't change anyway - far to inconvient for the operators to be receptive to change or do anything different.

Brockley Nick said...

Well I won't argue about London Bridge station being horrible. Canada Water is much nicer...

Deje Vu said...

I have read arguments about how the ELL is a waste of time before on here. Oh look, it's the same people too...

Lou, where is the chav end of Brockley?

If there is ever one deserving a punch up the bracket, it is you.

DJ said...

Once the LB station improvements are finished is there a chance we could get the direct trains to Charing X back? Or did I dream that?

Brockley Nick said...

It's possible, but not guaranteed, yes.

Matt-Z said...

There's also a chance of through trains from London Bridge along the new Thameslink line to such useless places as Blackfriars, Farringdon, St Pancras and Luton Airport. Lou will hate it.

Monkeyboy said...

Assuming that link to Thameslink is kept. There are dark rumours it may be 'defered'

Brockley Nick said...

Although they will still have to finish Blackfriars...

darryl said...

The 484 will get new buses in March which might hopefully allow people to have quieter nights.

Lou Baker said...

@matt

No, I'd love through trains to Farringdon and Kings X.

Direct trains to useful destinations. How wonderful!

And an easy connection to Crossrail at the new Farringdon - so much more central than Whitechapel (in which Nick may have shares).

And who thinks Shoreditch is cool? It was cool 10 years ago. Deptford's where it's at now - apparently.

Respect.

Brockley Nick said...

@Lou "so much more central than Whitechapel (in which Nick may have shares)."

As daft an assertion as it is low.

No, I don't own any shares in anything. It's not possible to own shares in a London Underground station, but if you are referring to the disclosure I always make when writing about Crossrail, the link is that the agency I work for does some work to represent Balfour Beatty, which as well as being one of the country's leading construction firms, has a role in the delivery of Crossrail. It's a pretty tangential link, but I believe in being transparent and my support for Crossrail predates that client relationship by several years.

Again, as others have tried to explain to you, it's not necessarily about the station as a destination, but as an interchange. Whitechapel / Crossrail will shave 30 mins off a trip to Heathrow from Brockley, among other things.

I don't believe you are stupid enough not to understand this point, so I can only assume you are trolling.

Monkeyboy said...

I travel most days to farringdon and back. ELL, change at Whitechaple. Easy.

Next....

The Cat Man said...

I cant believe people are seriously saying the ELL was a bad thing. I personally have benefited greatly, working at st katherines docks means I can get either the ELL or London bridge service and therefore have an effect tube service at Brockley station!

Let's not also forget the change in brockleys demographics, there are so many more people living locally who 'love' hoxton and shoreditch who are semi uber cool (sadly not me). These people will help to get the right shops locally - whether it will be cafes/delis/trendy hairdressers!

The Cat Man said...

Presumably it's not uber cool to eat fried chicken...

Anonymous said...

Can someone translate that please?

Headhunter said...

"and the cancellation of the service to charing cross had nothing to do with the east london line, it was the result of changes to the stratford service, with knock-on effect across the southern and south eastern timetable."

As far as I understand it, the offial reason our Charing X link was cancelled was so that Southern/South Eastern (basically the same company anyway) could run high speed trains from Kent into London for which they can charge higher fares. They even ordered flash new trains from Japan to privide this service. Only thing is that there was no demand for these trains (probably because the fares are extortionate) so the services have been cut back already. But have our Charing X services been reinstated? Noooo...

Deje Vu said...

As mentioned on the many previous threads, and to which you have acknowledged before, HH, you can get to Ch X from St Johns station which is pretty close to where you live. So, the impact to your life is minimal.

Please stop moaning just for the sake of moaning?

Foxberry Mike said...

Lou
I assume when you checked out that 'there are no American tanks in Dalston' you used the handy train to LB, wait for a bit and then 149 bus option rather than the 'useless' ELL?
HH
i could never understand why a new train service on new track going nowhere near LB let alone any Southern lines meant we could no longer have a direct service to CX. I wonder if Southern think we are stupid?

Lou Baker said...

@foxberry

I avoid NE London where possible - nasty place.

@nick

Sorry for implying any unfair play. I didn't mean that. But much as I like the idea of Crossrail it is stretching it a little to suggest it will have any real benefit for Brockley at all. For most of us it'll be useful once a year to get to Heathrow on holiday - but that's about it. But it's nice for London to have it.

Brockley Nick said...

@Lou - no worries. With regards to the direct benefits of Crossrail, I agree that there are relatively few journeys from Brockley that it will improve (Heathrow, Paddington being two obvious exceptions). What I'm much more interested in are the indirect benefits: Crossrail adds capacity to Canary Wharf in particular, which will enable its ongoing growth (it's almost reached its physical limits at the moment). The continued growth of Canary Wharf will continue to shift London's economic centre of gravity east, which is good for London's overall development and for East London in particular. Such is my thesis.

Tamsin said...

HH is quite justified in moaning when a service that has been steadily eroded for years was given its death-knell for no good reason other than ruthless profiteering by a different, though linked, operator. We were told the contract to South Eastern had already been let and could not be re-opened although both they and Southern are wholly owned subsidiaries of the same (largely French) multi-national.

Various buck-passers also tried the distraction ploy of the ELL coming on stream (although for those travelling from NXG it represented no significant improvement in service choices) which annoyed me.

And, as HH has pointed out, the reason for the loss of the Charing Cross service has imploded on itself with no sign of the service being restored to those who were clamouring about it.

Headhunter said...

Exactly. The removal of the Ch X services from Brockley have been exposed as pure profit motivated. Nice as it is to have the later train from Dalston Junc and 2 additional evening peak trains and 1 more train on Sat, as far as I'm concerned these are not "significant" improvements...

Deje Vu (do you mean Deja Vu?) - If you're happy to put up with a crappier service for no reason then go for it. I'm not.

Anonymous said...

A train well past midnight was a big gap on the ELL service. It's a significant improvement and aligns with the wider LU timetable.

the extra evening trains on Southern is also a significant improvement.

I'm still waitng for someone, apart from you, Lou and tamsin to find the current service mix worse than what we had a year ago.

Brockley Gaul said...

And the importance of the railway company being owned by a French multi-national is what? Do you not like the French either, Tamsin?

Headhunter said...

OK budding ELL fans. I want to get from Brockley to Finsbury Park, I tried using the TfL journey planner however it doesn't even seem to know the ELL exists and is trying to send me on some convoluted route through central London.

Surely I can take the ELL to Dalston Junc and then change to a train to Highbury and Islington and then change again to the Victoria Line?

Is it possible to do that change at Dalston Junc without exiting the station and paying again to re enter a different station (as you have to if you want to change from Shoreditch HS to the Central Line at Liverpool St)?

Brockley Nick said...

From next year, you'll be able to go direct to Highbury and Islington on the ELL and then one stop to finsbury park.

Until then, why not just go to London bridge, then northern line to Kings X, then victoria line.

Anonymous said...

Brockley ELL to Canada Water, Jubilee to Green Park, Victoria Line to Finsbury Park. 40 Minutes

Anonymous said...

make sure the 'rail' option is ticked on the TFL journey planner.

Tommo said...

@headhunter.
Of course the journeyplanner knows the ELL exists. Journeyplanner always gives the fastest route available as its default setting. If you really want to go via Dalston junction then you can select this as a 'via' point under the advanced options. It is a longer but more pleasant journey.
Dalston junction to dalston kingsland is an out of station interchange for oyster pay as you go. The system allows you 20 minutes between those two stations.

Headhunter said...

OK, thanks. May be I'll have to stick to the London Br route then. The ELL/Jubilee/Victoria sounds longer. I so want to find a use for the ELL but I am thwarted at every turn...

Tressilliana said...

Use it for going to Paddington. Change at Canada Water to Jubilee line, change again (forget where) to Bakerloo line, super quick compared with any other method I've tried for getting there from SE4.

Tamsin said...

To get to Paddington from the Telegraph Hill side with no changes at all (but it does take about an hour) is the 36 or 436 bus.

Brilliant if you've got children in tow as I used to when making day trips to visit my mother in the nursing home.

Headhunter said...

Reaching Paddington was easier when we had our Ch X link, Brockley to Ch X then Bakerloo line. 1 change only.

Tressilliana said...

Yes, if you happened to be travelling at one of the times when there was a through service.

Ramble said...

@ Headhunter According to TFL the ELL route is only 1 minute longer and the change at Canada is worth it to save the hassle at london bridge. I usually jump on whichever turns up first.

Tamsin said...

So bring it back every hour on the weekdays as well, the way it used to be - together with the steam and smuts and Trevor Howard to look deep into your eyes.
(Just being provocative....)

Seriously, though, it is the evenings and weekends that the through service to walking distance from Leicester Square or with all the options open from the Charing Cross node on the underground is most useful. Easy travel to Heathrow too.

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